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Thread: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

  1. #1

    "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    I heard this line so much regarding the nhs in the lead up to the election.

    This London fire has highlighted that private companies will take any shortcuts necessary when they primary aim is to make money.

    Disgusting negligence that cannot be replicated in our health system.

  2. #2

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    I heard this line so much regarding the nhs in the lead up to the election.

    This London fire has highlighted that private companies will take any shortcuts necessary when they primary aim is to make money.

    Disgusting negligence that cannot be replicated in our health system.
    Agreed,

  3. #3

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Agreed,
    Seconded.

  4. #4

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Ah yes, our wonderful NHS - completely negligent -free. Having just lost a friend who suffered at the hands of the NHS [who have only recently admitted liability], can't say I'd agree with that. Also, not sure what 'negligence you're referring to, but obviously not the fire fighters sending residents back into their flats when they were leaving to escape..

  5. #5

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish View Post
    Ah yes, our wonderful NHS - completely negligent -free. Having just lost a friend who suffered at the hands of the NHS [who have only recently admitted liability], can't say I'd agree with that. Also, not sure what 'negligence you're referring to, but obviously not the fire fighters sending residents back into their flats when they were leaving to escape..
    Is it hard spending your your life as a heartless total **** ? Tory voter with pots of private health insurance I suppose ?

  6. #6

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    What do you think is better in terms of cost and value :-

    The NHS being charged £1000 per treatment for kidney stones treatment (for ONE treatment)
    or
    A service that charges £500 per treatment, where if they dont treat the kidney stone on the first treatment - there will be 2 further treatments at no cost.


    Option 1 is what they were doing at the Heath , Option 2 is what they do at Great Ormond Street - source - my sister who works there.

    If you think that everything the NHS provides is a perfect panacea of all things good - you are sadly mistaken. I am all for the NHS provisioning services by other health care providers. If they provide a bad service - the NHS has the clout to cancel the provisioning contract. Something internally that the NHS provides - you have no choice but to use it. A no choice option breeds bad service and complacency.

    I am only in favour of this type of thing where the NHS retains overall control of the service being provided.

    (ps try and remember by the way that Health is a devolved power to the WAG)

    Some of what the Welsh NHS does is great , other things are really poor. CPD medication for example and red tape that you can only dream of.
    Tory tosser. We all know you are.

  7. #7

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    I'm in no way suggesting that the NHS is perfect and i also know of needless deaths under the care of that system.

    However, my partner is a nurse and i know how much pressure is being heaped upon her service due to the current squeeze that is going on.

    Like others have recently echoed, the current accepted approach is that if something is not making money then it cannot be successful.

    For me lives are far more important than money and i believe it's evident that we are heading towards an American style health insurance system.

    As someone who hasn't got a huge amount but could probably afford private health care for my family i still don't take the approach that my family is all that is important.

    I believe that everyone deserves free healthcare not just the few.

  8. #8

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    I heard this line so much regarding the nhs in the lead up to the election.

    This London fire has highlighted that private companies will take any shortcuts necessary when they primary aim is to make money.

    Disgusting negligence that cannot be replicated in our health system.
    Can I just say Mid-Staffordshire Health Authority if we want to discuss negligence.

  9. #9

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    What do you think is better in terms of cost and value :-

    The NHS being charged £1000 per treatment for kidney stones treatment (for ONE treatment)
    or
    A service that charges £500 per treatment, where if they dont treat the kidney stone on the first treatment - there will be 2 further treatments at no cost.


    Option 1 is what they were doing at the Heath , Option 2 is what they do at Great Ormond Street - source - my sister who works there.

    If you think that everything the NHS provides is a perfect panacea of all things good - you are sadly mistaken. I am all for the NHS provisioning services by other health care providers. If they provide a bad service - the NHS has the clout to cancel the provisioning contract. Something internally that the NHS provides - you have no choice but to use it. A no choice option breeds bad service and complacency.

    I am only in favour of this type of thing where the NHS retains overall control of the service being provided.

    (ps try and remember by the way that Health is a devolved power to the WAG)

    Some of what the Welsh NHS does is great , other things are really poor. CPD medication for example and red tape that you can only dream of.
    If you analyse it treatment by treatment (I will assume you aren't making it up) of course you will find things that are inefficient within the NHS. Simple truth is that the total amount we spend on healthcare in this country isn't enough, pretending that privatisation will fix the problems present within the UK healthcare sector is frankly insulting people's intelligence.

    Government knows this, any drive for privatisation is simply to distance themselves from the disaster waiting to happen.

  10. #10

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueWales View Post
    Is it hard spending your your life as a heartless total **** ? Tory voter with pots of private health insurance I suppose ?
    I notice you are directing your vitriol and malice towards anyone with different views than yours. No doubt you will swell with pride when I tell you that makes you a typical socialist..

  11. #11

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Can I just say Mid-Staffordshire Health Authority if we want to discuss negligence.

  12. #12

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Can I just say Mid-Staffordshire Health Authority if we want to discuss negligence.
    You already did Mark.

    Further up the thread.

  13. #13

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    You already did Mark.

    Further up the thread.
    .?

  14. #14

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Lecter View Post
    You already did Mark.

    Further up the thread.
    Great discussion so far

  15. #15

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Eric - every year the demands on the NHS go up. For example Welsh Ambulance Service has a funding increase for 4% - yet for some reason the increase in call outs has gone up by 8% recently (which is why WAST has problems).

    Let's remove the magic money tree option for a moment. You cant really allow for the exponential growth in any service - unless we find out why / where the extra demand is coming from (logical to me).

    What the NHS management have to do - is try and get the same for less money or at least more for the same money , then the money saved can go elsewhere in the NHS. Another example NHS phone charges - it used to be £300 million a year - so in England they switched to IP phones (free calls) - that money saved was then spent elsewhere.

    Nurses in the Heath - for some reason the Vale Health board will be charged a lot for a Bank Nurse, when in reality for some reason they dont want to pay the time and half overtime instead to the same nurse ?. There are massive savings to be made from inefficiencies in the NHS. CPD medicines - why are Welsh Health boards using very old and expensive medicines when there are cheaper and better available - and why then does every single health board in wales have to then test them separately.

    So I agree - put the extra 1p on income tax , or 1% on inheritance tax etc - BUT please do not ignore the wastage that goes on - as that is an insult to everyone's intelligence as well as wallet.

    Chucking money at a problem seldom works. Ive worked in the NHS over the years, I have a close family relative in Cardiff and Vale who has to juggle finances on a daily basis and (a now retired) relative who was top of his profession at the heath, who when he retired told me he only ever worked 3.5 days a week - the remainder was at bupa on fee paying patients.

    I dont think we will solve the NHS on a Friday night on a football forum - so I'm off for a beer or 2
    Oh, please don't keep on saying "Magic money tree", it's just "strong and stable" mark II .

    I'm not denying what you say, but haven't the events of the last few days almost certainly proved that "cheaper" doesn't always mean better?

    I look at the four points the writer of this piece about the Grenfell Tower fire

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ant-inequality

    makes to sum up what he says and I can't help thinking he's nailed it completely.

    Also, the penultimate paragraph of this piece

    https://www.ft.com/content/94ba1a62-...abdc0?mhq5j=e2

    makes a very telling and, so relevant given current events, point about the attitude of someone who was in a very influential position in the Conservative portion of the 2010-15 Coalition government.

    Frankly, anything or anybody that thinks in the way described in those two links (and I accept that it can be said to a smaller degree about the New Labour administrations of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown) should be kept well away from the NHS!

  16. #16

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Oh, please don't keep on saying "Magic money tree", it's just "strong and stable" mark II .

    I'm not denying what you say, but haven't the events of the last few days almost certainly proved that "cheaper" doesn't always mean better?

    I look at the four points the writer of this piece about the Grenfell Tower fire

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ant-inequality

    makes to sum up what he says and I can't help thinking he's nailed it completely.

    Also, the penultimate paragraph of this piece

    https://www.ft.com/content/94ba1a62-...abdc0?mhq5j=e2

    makes a very telling and, so relevant given current events, point about the attitude of someone who was in a very influential position in the Conservative portion of the 2010-15 Coalition government.

    Frankly, anything or anybody that thinks in the way described in those two links (and I accept that it can be said to a smaller degree about the New Labour administrations of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown) should be kept well away from the NHS!
    Can't read the article about Steve Hilton. FT articles sren't free

  17. #17

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    On a related note, i think the conservatives are starting to find the "magic money tree"

  18. #18

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Eric - every year the demands on the NHS go up. For example Welsh Ambulance Service has a funding increase for 4% - yet for some reason the increase in call outs has gone up by 8% recently (which is why WAST has problems).

    Let's remove the magic money tree option for a moment. You cant really allow for the exponential growth in any service - unless we find out why / where the extra demand is coming from (logical to me).

    What the NHS management have to do - is try and get the same for less money or at least more for the same money , then the money saved can go elsewhere in the NHS. Another example NHS phone charges - it used to be £300 million a year - so in England they switched to IP phones (free calls) - that money saved was then spent elsewhere.

    Nurses in the Heath - for some reason the Vale Health board will be charged a lot for a Bank Nurse, when in reality for some reason they dont want to pay the time and half overtime instead to the same nurse ?. There are massive savings to be made from inefficiencies in the NHS. CPD medicines - why are Welsh Health boards using very old and expensive medicines when there are cheaper and better available - and why then does every single health board in wales have to then test them separately.

    So I agree - put the extra 1p on income tax , or 1% on inheritance tax etc - BUT please do not ignore the wastage that goes on - as that is an insult to everyone's intelligence as well as wallet.

    Chucking money at a problem seldom works. Ive worked in the NHS over the years, I have a close family relative in Cardiff and Vale who has to juggle finances on a daily basis and (a now retired) relative who was top of his profession at the heath, who when he retired told me he only ever worked 3.5 days a week - the remainder was at bupa on fee paying patients.

    I dont think we will solve the NHS on a Friday night on a football forum - so I'm off for a beer or 2
    The simple fact is that all the wonderful systems that people cite as alternative methods of operating healthcare share one thing, the cost per head is higher. It feels like they are running it down in order to justify privatisation.

    Privatisation is the 'magic money tree' of the right, it solves all problems. I am with you on not ignoring the waste, and I fully agree that did happen all over the public sector. The majority of cuts now are beyond that, public sector is expected to pretend to the end user that the service will stay the same whilst funding simply won't allow it - a good example of this is the facebook response by the firefighter to Boris that was posted in the thread on the main board.

  19. #19

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    Can't read the article about Steve Hilton. FT articles sren't free
    I was able to do so at the time I posted it, but can't now - I found an article which mentions the part I talked about;-

    "If this latter point sounds exaggerated, consider the Whitehall career of Steve Hilton, who was David Cameron’s “blue sky thinker” before moving to California to become a Silicon Valley sage, then returning last summer to detail the case for Brexit and show off his tan. In government, Hilton ran a “red tape challenge”, hoping to banish reams of dead weight from the statute books. Instead, as the former Liberal Democrat adviser Giles Wilkes records, weary civil servants had to defend basic safety measures: “Only the determination of hardy officials saved the public from the return of flammable sofas.” "

  20. #20

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Private companies don't always look to squeeze every penny instead of protecting the public as you suggest. That is a way of looking at business that corbyn instills in the public. Hate first, logic later.

    The vast majority of private firms operate above and beyond what is required.

    Why? Because that is good for business. Social media and the media can absolutely destroys brands nowadays. The brand, service and product quality is everything.

    A relative of mine had an op to fix arthritis in his hands on the NHS. THey made them so much worse the only option given was private care (which failed due to had bad the previous ops went) or amputation. I know very few people who have had good experiences with the NHS.

    I don't understand the in's and out's. More money should be put into it. Until that time the discussion on whether it is viable can't be made really can it?.

    But funding does rise year on year doesn't it?.

  21. #21

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Oh, please don't keep on saying "Magic money tree", it's just "strong and stable" mark II .

    I'm not denying what you say, but haven't the events of the last few days almost certainly proved that "cheaper" doesn't always mean better?

    I look at the four points the writer of this piece about the Grenfell Tower fire

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ant-inequality

    makes to sum up what he says and I can't help thinking he's nailed it completely.

    Also, the penultimate paragraph of this piece

    https://www.ft.com/content/94ba1a62-...abdc0?mhq5j=e2

    makes a very telling and, so relevant given current events, point about the attitude of someone who was in a very influential position in the Conservative portion of the 2010-15 Coalition government.

    Frankly, anything or anybody that thinks in the way described in those two links (and I accept that it can be said to a smaller degree about the New Labour administrations of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown) should be kept well away from the NHS!
    I know, it's awful the way some people bang on about 'where's the money going to come from'. Who wants to bothered by all that capitalistic mantra, eh ?
    On the subject of the NHS, I can't understand the national obsession with it. It wasn't the first by some decades, and it certainly isn't the best -far from it. And it's certainly been privatised in part since 1948. The private sector has developed the life-saving drugs, the life saving procedures, the life saving equipment. And continues to do so. I've had a procedure carried out which was developed by a large American Company, and I take a couple of tablets that were developed and tested by another drug company. True, the excellent surgeon was excellently trained in the public/NHS sector, but nobody would stand a chance without those nasty businesses and corporations ..

  22. #22

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    You are as predictable as a Dianne Abbott sick note.
    And you are as predictable as Theresa May in you lack of empathy for the poor.

  23. #23

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish View Post
    I notice you are directing your vitriol and malice towards anyone with different views than yours. No doubt you will swell with pride when I tell you that makes you a typical socialist..
    I'm not a socialist as it happens but you are certainly a ****.

  24. #24

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Originally Posted by BlueWales View Post
    Is it hard spending your your life as a heartless total **** ? Tory voter with pots of private health insurance I suppose ?

    I notice you are directing your vitriol and malice towards anyone with different views than yours. No doubt you will swell with pride when I tell you that makes you a typical socialist..

    Hit that nail bang on the head
    See below Billy one mate.

  25. #25

    Re: "As long as it's free at the point of service"

    Quote Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish View Post
    I know, it's awful the way some people bang on about 'where's the money going to come from'. Who wants to bothered by all that capitalistic mantra, eh ?
    On the subject of the NHS, I can't understand the national obsession with it. It wasn't the first by some decades, and it certainly isn't the best -far from it. And it's certainly been privatised in part since 1948. The private sector has developed the life-saving drugs, the life saving procedures, the life saving equipment. And continues to do so. I've had a procedure carried out which was developed by a large American Company, and I take a couple of tablets that were developed and tested by another drug company. True, the excellent surgeon was excellently trained in the public/NHS sector, but nobody would stand a chance without those nasty businesses and corporations ..
    What do they say about sarcasm being the lowest form of wit?

    What you say does nothing to counter the main thrust of what is said in that article - - there has been a philosophy in Government for thirty years or more (including under a Labour Government) whereby safety is compromised on the back of financial and ideological considerations.

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