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Thread: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

  1. #1

    Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Not to have any league minutes played so far this season by players aged 21 or younger.

    Given where we are it clearly isn't hurting at the moment. Warnock is probably someone who gives players a framework within which to perform, rather a teacher who will develop skills.

    It might hurt us a few years down the line, but in the same breath I'm not aware of any youngsters who are knocking on the doors at the moment.

  2. #2

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    That's a shame and I hope things turn around soon

  3. #3

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    We released plenty of yoof last season. Not playing anyone under 21 in that context is hardly a surprise.

  4. #4

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    Not to have any league minutes played so far this season by players aged 21 or younger.

    Given where we are it clearly isn't hurting at the moment. Warnock is probably someone who gives players a framework within which to perform, rather a teacher who will develop skills.

    It might hurt us a few years down the line, but in the same breath I'm not aware of any youngsters who are knocking on the doors at the moment.
    Odd, then, that when Slade wasn't playing the youngsters he was being castigated. Isn't it simply the case that Cardiff's Academy is failing? When was the last time that the academy produced a Welsh international and/or a player that moved to a higher division club for a fee of more than 1m? Just as Warnock can't be blamed for not picking non-existent starlets, it's amusing that some use the same issue as a stick to beat his predecessor.

    Perhaps some of the money that is spent on the 1Malaysia project would be better spent closer to home? Just a thought.

  5. #5

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt View Post
    Odd, then, that when Slade wasn't playing the youngsters he was being castigated. Isn't it simply the case that Cardiff's Academy is failing? When was the last time that the academy produced a Welsh international and/or a player that moved to a higher division club for a fee of more than 1m? Just as Warnock can't be blamed for not picking non-existent starlets, it's amusing that some use the same issue as a stick to beat his predecessor.

    Perhaps some of the money that is spent on the 1Malaysia project would be better spent closer to home? Just a thought.
    Mark Harris had some game time last season and is in Warnock's radar. Given the start we've made to the season it's probably not a huge surprise that he hasn't been involved, but I reckon he will be at some point.

    Slade had a few young players at his disposal that he chose to ignore regularly. I'm not sure the same applies to Warnock.

  6. #6

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Mark Harris had some game time last season and is in Warnock's radar. Given the start we've made to the season it's probably not a huge surprise that he hasn't been involved, but I reckon he will be at some point.

    Slade had a few young players at his disposal that he chose to ignore regularly. I'm not sure the same applies to Warnock.
    Who were these players?

  7. #7

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Cameron Coxe has made a debut this season as well - one of the many differences between Slade and Warnock is that the latter showed that he is willing to consider young players under the right circumstances (Harris may not have featured in the league team this season, but he did on a number of occasions last year - Ibrahim Meite also got a game), Slade resolutely failed to provide any encouragement to youth - seems to me that, true to form, some are being argumentative just for the sake of it.

  8. #8

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Cameron Coxe has made a debut this season as well - one of the many differences between Slade and Warnock is that the latter showed that he is willing to consider young players under the right circumstances (Harris may not have featured in the league team this season, but he did on a number of occasions last year - Ibrahim Meite also got a game), Slade resolutely failed to provide any encouragement to youth - seems to me that, true to form, some are being argumentative just for the sake of it.
    And not to forget Slade had about 10 dead rubber games at the end of the season where he used a soon to retire Danny Gabbidon on the bench whereas now we're second in the league

  9. #9

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    And not to forget Slade had about 10 dead rubber games at the end of the season where he used a soon to retire Danny Gabbidon on the bench whereas now we're second in the league
    Very true! One of the most frustrating things that season for me (and there were many) was that players like Rhys Healey and Tom O'Sullivan werwen't given a good run in the starting 11 at the end of a dead season.

  10. #10
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    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Warnock gave the youngsters less of a chance at the end of last season when we had f all to play for.

  11. #11

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Tandy View Post
    Warnock gave the youngsters less of a chance at the end of last season when we had f all to play for.
    Fair point also, although I think the only plsyer he seemed to see any promise in andf had plans to keep was Healey and he managed to break into the first team I seem to remember?

  12. #12

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    And not to forget Slade had about 10 dead rubber games at the end of the season where he used a soon to retire Danny Gabbidon on the bench whereas now we're second in the league
    That was a baffling decision. I can only think he thought that the fans wanted Gabbidon to have a final send off. I dont recall any great clamouring for such a thing.
    We had Semi Ajayi at the time, who I still think could be a good player at this level.

  13. #13

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    That was a baffling decision. I can only think he thought that the fans wanted Gabbidon to have a final send off. I dont recall any great clamouring for such a thing.
    We had Semi Ajayi at the time, who I still think could be a good player at this level.
    If that was the case then you think he would have put him on the pitch

  14. #14

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Unfortunately, I think we will find it harder to bring through good prospects in the future.

    With the way the academy set up is nowadays, the bigger teams can just pinch any good talents at a young age (e.g. Matondo) before they even get close to the first team. Joe Ralls did come from our youth team, but seeing as we pinched him from Farnborough the same as Man City pinched Matondo I am unsure if he can be classed as a youth product.

  15. #15

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    If that was the case then you think he would have put him on the pitch
    Good point

  16. #16

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by ken smith View Post
    Unfortunately, I think we will find it harder to bring through good prospects in the future.

    With the way the academy set up is nowadays, the bigger teams can just pinch any good talents at a young age (e.g. Matondo) before they even get close to the first team. Joe Ralls did come from our youth team, but seeing as we pinched him from Farnborough the same as Man City pinched Matondo I am unsure if he can be classed as a youth product.
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.man...y-13722781.amp


    Speaking of whom. Seems to be progressing well at man city

  17. #17

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Slade was a manager who knew he was out of his depth so couldn't afford to risk trying out younger players. The pressure was always on him from day one so it didn't surprise me too much that he didn't give them much of a chance (frustrated the hell out of me though).

    It's often surprising how one manager doesn't see much potential in a player, but then a new manager comes in and things change (or vice versa). The one thing I liked about Solskjaer (remember him?) was that he gave a fair few young players a chance in a relatively short space of time.

  18. #18

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokyo Blue View Post
    Slade was a manager who knew he was out of his depth so couldn't afford to risk trying out younger players. The pressure was always on him from day one so it didn't surprise me too much that he didn't give them much of a chance (frustrated the hell out of me though).

    It's often surprising how one manager doesn't see much potential in a player, but then a new manager comes in and things change (or vice versa). The one thing I liked about Solskjaer (remember him?) was that he gave a fair few young players a chance in a relatively short space of time.
    I wasn't a slade fan by any means, but he did a very important job for us. Was a steady hand while we stripped a load of cost out of the team.
    OGS I wanted to be a great success, and brought in really good players, but to this day I have no idea how he was trying to get us to play. I'd say he was the one out of his depth.

  19. #19

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Cameron Coxe has made a debut this season as well - one of the many differences between Slade and Warnock is that the latter showed that he is willing to consider young players under the right circumstances (Harris may not have featured in the league team this season, but he did on a number of occasions last year - Ibrahim Meite also got a game), Slade resolutely failed to provide any encouragement to youth - seems to me that, true to form, some are being argumentative just for the sake of it.
    It's a fair question Bob, who were these players that Slade wasn't picking. And how are they currently doing this season?

    The facts are that the academy has been failing to produce players for some time - that isn't Slade nor Warnock's problem because an academy is a long term process. I'm slightly amused that one man is slated for not picking players that were not good enough, whereas the other is defended with sporadic examples. My point is, the academy is struggling and, unless it improves, the next manager will also have the tag of refusing to give youth a chance. The players are obviously not ready because Mackay, Slade, Trollope and now Warnock are unwilling to find anything other than a token place for them.

    Question, when does it stop being a manager thing, and start being an academy thing? Next question, what are the levels of funding being received by the academy compared to the Dave Jones days? Further question, how much is being invested in the 1MCC project and what are the tangible benefits.

    Apologies for being "argumentative" but you can see now that my issues are not without foundation.

  20. #20

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    I wasn't a slade fan by any means, but he did a very important job for us. Was a steady hand while we stripped a load of cost out of the team.
    OGS I wanted to be a great success, and brought in really good players, but to this day I have no idea how he was trying to get us to play. I'd say he was the one out of his depth.
    Absolutely, he was a steady pair of hands brought in to do a hatchet job and did a decent job under the circumstances (even if the playing style wasn't great). But even with nothing to play for, fans could easily have gone easier on him if he tried out a couple of younger players when we had nothing to play for. Developing home grown talent is something I'm passionate about the club doing and I think every club should actively strive to bring players through their own academies.

  21. #21

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt View Post
    The facts are that the academy has been failing to produce players for some time - that isn't Slade nor Warnock's problem because an academy is a long term process. I'm slightly amused that one man is slated for not picking players that were not good enough, whereas the other is defended with sporadic examples. My point is, the academy is struggling and, unless it improves, the next manager will also have the tag of refusing to give youth a chance. The players are obviously not ready because Mackay, Slade, Trollope and now Warnock are unwilling to find anything other than a token place for them.
    Or maybe the players aren't good enough. Tommy O'Sullivan was hyped up... and where is he now. A lot of the youngsters can't even be loaned out to league sides.

    Reality is, the overwhelming majority of youth players bomb out irrespective league status. Someone like Southampton is a rarity and even they have been quite the past two seasons or so.

    Another point is players even on their first pro contract have decent contracts relatively speaking. Where is their motivation to take risks, drive themselves on when they can get a very nice salary, get a very nice car at a young age etc. Doss around playing u23 games from 18 onwards, job's good 'un.

  22. #22

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Posters here far too eager to say that players aren't good enough if not knocking down the door. Look at players like Trippier who probably wouldn't have had such a class introduction into a side managed by a gaffer less interested in player development. Could Declan John have developed as well if given similar treatment? Instead we have posters ruling him out despite being still so young.

    We have, for a number of years, been an unstable club who bounced from one direction to the next. It can't have helped those in the academy.

    If we are to become a sustainable club we need a working academy system.

  23. #23

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Eh? Trippier worked his bollocks off for Burnley which earnt him the move to Spurs.

    Posters rule Declan John out because he's not good enough. He's not good enough defensively to play left back, doesn't offer enough to play wide left. That's not the view of "posters here", it's the view of managers here who don't think him good enough, the view of managers elsewhere who have zero interest in loaning him or buying him, it's the view of managers where he's been on loan.

    It's easy to blame his lack of development on the squad rather than looking at the player himself - he's looked at in a far better light than some ( ie Malone for one ) due to being "local".

  24. #24

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    And not to forget Slade had about 10 dead rubber games at the end of the season where he used a soon to retire Danny Gabbidon on the bench whereas now we're second in the league
    Gabbidon mentions this in a podcast and said he was asking Slade to stop picking him and pick a youngster instead

  25. #25

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    Posters here far too eager to say that players aren't good enough if not knocking down the door. Look at players like Trippier who probably wouldn't have had such a class introduction into a side managed by a gaffer less interested in player development. Could Declan John have developed as well if given similar treatment? Instead we have posters ruling him out despite being still so young.

    We have, for a number of years, been an unstable club who bounced from one direction to the next. It can't have helped those in the academy.

    If we are to become a sustainable club we need a working academy system.
    I agree entirely. I was surprised to see Malky Mackay's name in a list of managers who had not given youth their chance because he had Joe Ralls playing Championship football at 17, Ben Nugent's career may not have gone the way he might have thought it would when Mackay gave him his first team chance at eighteen I think it was (Nugent did well enough in a team which won the Championship in his first season) and he had no qualms about giving Declan John a league debut in our first match in the Premier League - Ole also made John a regular choice at left back during the second half of our Premier League campaign.

    Every youngster who is given a pro deal has an optimum time for when they are best suited for first team football. Of course, many of them are not good enough and so never get that chance, but I believe it is ridiculous to write off all of the young pros we've had in recent years as not being good enough full stop. The club have proved to be pretty hopeless at recognising when the optimum time was for talented players like O'Sullivan and Wharton, who I believe would have played far more first team football if they had been around back in the days when it wasn't considered a mad gamble to pick youngsters to play league football while they were still in their teens - while it could be argued that the current team is better than the ones we had back in the time when we used to pick teenagers, I'd back most of our teams from the second half of the previous decade to beat the ones that we had for the first three seasons after we got relegated..

    There is an unfortunate group of players in their early twenties now who were at that optimum age while Russell Slade (the worst Cardiff manager I've seen when it comes to youth development) was around. There's a few comments in this thread about Slade doing a good job given the financial situation of the club at the time and, to a degree, I'd agree with that, but, surely, it would be in the remit of any decent manager doing a job under such circumstances to look to utilise the club's youth policy to not only bring on players, but also help earn much needed transfer fees for any youngsters sold? Slade didn't do that (in fact he just ignored any player under a certain age) - the Academy does not have a good record during this decade, but some of that is down to the fact that it was virtually closed for a couple of seasons while Slade was here.

  26. #26

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life View Post
    Eh? Trippier worked his bollocks off for Burnley which earnt him the move to Spurs.

    Posters rule Declan John out because he's not good enough. He's not good enough defensively to play left back, doesn't offer enough to play wide left. That's not the view of "posters here", it's the view of managers here who don't think him good enough, the view of managers elsewhere who have zero interest in loaning him or buying him, it's the view of managers where he's been on loan.

    It's easy to blame his lack of development on the squad rather than looking at the player himself - he's looked at in a far better light than some ( ie Malone for one ) due to being "local".
    How many managers passed through the club in Declan John's time? Mackay, OGS, Slade, Trollope, Warnock. Throw in Coleman at international level, plus the various managers at the other clubs he played for and, had he signed on a free transfer from Wigan, John would have a weaker defence from posters here than he offered in many games.

    All fans like a good home grown player, the magic of a kid who stood on the Bob Bank scoring a winning goal in a big game is part of football's allure. Also, as the game becomes more global, it is still important for us that it retains an image and a connection to the city and area it represents. It is somewhat sad, and coincidental, that at a time where Cardiff lost its roots, it also lost its way in producing good local talent.

    Why is that? Is Championship football now at such a standard that young players have to be exceptional to break through? Would, for example, a 17 year old Joe Ledley get as much game time this season as he did 12 years ago?

    Are young players being luxuried into ruts? Are they too pampered? If so, aren't football clubs creating massive problems for hundreds of young men who experience the lifestyle, protection and good will of a club only to fail to make the grade and fall to the real world with a massive bump?

    Should the club be investing more in youth development? I am not criticising the current setup, but the results of the football conveyor belt are suggesting that there is something wrong in the process. Fair enough if people label Aaron Ramsey a "freak" - but Ledley, Collins, Earnshaw, Gunter were all produced in the same period as the last time the academy produced a million pound player (Ramsey).

    I don't think any manager can be criticised for not picking players who are not good enough, but the process of producing good enough players is open to criticism.

  27. #27

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    To much, to soon. !

    I was outside the ground on Monday night when some of these children arrived (that's what they seemed like to me).

    You should have seen the cars some of them are driving. No old bangers here, all top of the range high powered motors.

    As I say, to much to soon, some of them think they have arrived and they ain't even bought a ticket yet, spoilt.

  28. #28

    Re: Cardiff are the only club in the efl

    Quote Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt View Post
    How many managers passed through the club in Declan John's time? Mackay, OGS, Slade, Trollope, Warnock. Throw in Coleman at international level, plus the various managers at the other clubs he played for and, had he signed on a free transfer from Wigan, John would have a weaker defence from posters here than he offered in many games.

    All fans like a good home grown player, the magic of a kid who stood on the Bob Bank scoring a winning goal in a big game is part of football's allure. Also, as the game becomes more global, it is still important for us that it retains an image and a connection to the city and area it represents. It is somewhat sad, and coincidental, that at a time where Cardiff lost its roots, it also lost its way in producing good local talent.

    Why is that? Is Championship football now at such a standard that young players have to be exceptional to break through? Would, for example, a 17 year old Joe Ledley get as much game time this season as he did 12 years ago?

    Are young players being luxuried into ruts? Are they too pampered? If so, aren't football clubs creating massive problems for hundreds of young men who experience the lifestyle, protection and good will of a club only to fail to make the grade and fall to the real world with a massive bump?

    Should the club be investing more in youth development? I am not criticising the current setup, but the results of the football conveyor belt are suggesting that there is something wrong in the process. Fair enough if people label Aaron Ramsey a "freak" - but Ledley, Collins, Earnshaw, Gunter were all produced in the same period as the last time the academy produced a million pound player (Ramsey).

    I don't think any manager can be criticised for not picking players who are not good enough, but the process of producing good enough players is open to criticism.
    12 years ago though we and football were in a different place. That's why I don't think bringing Ledley into it is necessarily a great argument. The bar has been raised from where we were then - there's also assorted other things like FFP to consider. Would those players ( Collins et al ) break into this Championship side? Probably a few sub appearances as and when. Earnie would probably be the exception because pace and goals are wanted by basically everybody.

    I do think players are far more pampered at a far younger age, some probably develop false delusions of grandeur. I suspect we tend to look more favourably on our youngsters too - after all, it's been like pulling teeth even trying to get them loan deals in the FL.

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