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Thread: 307 mass shooting

  1. #61

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    What's he said that's not PC? Why do people who talk about non PC never have any idea what it actually is?
    See my reply to Sludge Factory.

  2. #62

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    How do we know Christ's teaching was one of love ?

    The Bible ?

    That was written many years after his death , if he even existed !

    There is no evidence whatsoever that there is a god , none

    Nobody has gone to heaven and come back to tell us how great it is ......you would have thought that God , who is supposed to be all powerful would have made someone do that to make sure we all loved each other , protected the planet and animals and stopped children starving all over the world ?

    I am with Richard Dawkins on this , it might be a good book but it's fiction
    This is a well worn argument, sorry. Even Taunton Blue Genie will tell you that he has never denied the existence of the historical Jesus (as he once reminded me).

  3. #63

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    "Christian values" is a term used by christians who have hijacked the term "human values" in order to put themselves above the rest of us.

    Why are "Christian values" any better than the values of Judaism (The root of Christianity and Islam) or Hinduism, Seikhism, Buddism?

    Religions are forced upon the children of adherents in order that the religion will survive. Is there any religion in the world that doesn’t force children to follow?


    Yes, Christianity, if you consider Christianity to be a religion (which I don't), i.e. not a relationship with a person, just a follower of an ideology or philosophy. My two sons grew up in a Christian home and were free to choose their own path. They had ample opportunity to turn away (away at university, leaving home to get married etc.) but they have not. We never coerced them - what teenagers would accept that! There is an expression "to love people into the kingdom" - do you seriously think that anyone today could be bullied into becoming a Christian?

  4. #64

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Good evening sir.

    Q.1: Yes.

    Q.2: Heaven is a place for believers/followers of Jesus. Jesus made an extraordinary, almost arrogant claim – no one comes to the Father except by me. Why would non-Christians want or even expect to go there? Surely to them it's a fictional place and Christians are deluding themselves.

    God is forgiving but to obtain forgiveness surely first you have to acknowledge that there is something that needs to be forgiven and then ask for forgiveness! That tends to fly in the face of relativism which today's society is based upon - what feels right to me must be right etc. Hence my suggestion that the word “sinner” is a very non-PC expression today – if I called you a sinner I suspect you might be a little upset? The fact that someone professes to be a Christian is an acknowledgment that he/she is a sinner and therefore no different to anyone else in that sense, as we ALL fall short of being the person that Jesus wants us to be. The big difference is that the Christian knows that he/she falls short but has the humility to recognise this.
    I am not a Christian , have made many mistakes in my life , been arrested and admit I am not perfect

    If there is a heaven I believe I will be let in because I have always done my best to help people

    But I don't think there is a heaven or a god

    Regards

  5. #65

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I am not a Christian , have made many mistakes in my life , been arrested and admit I am not perfect

    If there is a heaven I believe I will be let in because I have always done my best to help people

    But I don't think there is a heaven or a god

    Regards
    You’ll be alright Sludge, being an ex cop I will be on St Michaels pay roll up there doing security and i’ll Let you in after you’ve done your purgatory for some of that shocking metal you’re into 😉👍

  6. #66

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    [/COLOR]

    Yes, Christianity, if you consider Christianity to be a religion (which I don't), i.e. not a relationship with a person, just a follower of an ideology or philosophy. My two sons grew up in a Christian home and were free to choose their own path. They had ample opportunity to turn away (away at university, leaving home to get married etc.) but they have not. We never coerced them - what teenagers would accept that! There is an expression "to love people into the kingdom" - do you seriously think that anyone today could be bullied into becoming a Christian?
    My sisters kid was brought up by my sister and her husband who are both devout , god fearing Catholics

    Is it any surprise she has turned out the same ?

    The difference is she is very bright and studying anthropology and evolution at king's college London and surely she will over the course of her studies realise that the earth is billions of years old and that , in my opinion , creationism is nonsense

    At least l hope she does

  7. #67

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2 View Post
    You’ll be alright Sludge, being an ex cop I will be on St Michaels pay roll up there doing security and i’ll Let you in after you’ve done your purgatory for some of that shocking metal you’re into 😉👍
    Nice one officer

  8. #68

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I am not a Christian , have made many mistakes in my life , been arrested and admit I am not perfect

    If there is a heaven I believe I will be let in because I have always done my best to help people

    But I don't think there is a heaven or a god

    Regards
    OK, so don't worry about it then. As Dawkins has said - "there probably is no God, so stop worrying and get on with your life". Remember the famous slogan on the side of the bus -

    https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=ri...0jygJyyvms-EM:

  9. #69

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    My sisters kid was brought up by my sister and her husband who are both devout , god fearing Catholics

    Is it any surprise she has turned out the same ?

    The difference is she is very bright and studying anthropology and evolution at king's college London and surely she will over the course of her studies realise that the earth is billions of years old and that , in my opinion , creationism is nonsense

    At least l hope she does
    Maybe. On the other hand she may discover that the age of the earth has no relevance whatsoever to matters of the human condition and the chaos in the world.

  10. #70

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Maybe. On the other hand she may discover that the age of the earth has no relevance whatsoever to matters of the human condition and the chaos in the world.
    But Christians believe the Bible to be the word of God and that the earth was created in 10000 years

    Why wasn't there any mention of dinosaurs in the Bible ?

    God is supposed to be omnipresent ......everywhere , all the time , watching over us ......you don't seriously believe that do you ?

    Why didn't he stop Adolf Hitler ?

    Why does he allow people to die in tower blocks in horrible fires , some of them young children ?

    Why does a young doctor get killed in a car crash when he had so many lives to save and a bright future ?

    God is all powerful isn't he ?

    I simply cannot accept there is a god if he is supposed to be everywhere at all times and all powerful

    Regards

  11. #71

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    [/COLOR]

    Yes, Christianity, if you consider Christianity to be a religion (which I don't), i.e. not a relationship with a person, just a follower of an ideology or philosophy. My two sons grew up in a Christian home and were free to choose their own path. They had ample opportunity to turn away (away at university, leaving home to get married etc.) but they have not. We never coerced them - what teenagers would accept that! There is an expression "to love people into the kingdom" - do you seriously think that anyone today could be bullied into becoming a Christian?
    So they had to wait until they were teenagers and went to Uni or left home to get married before they could make their own decision? (Meaning they were about 18 years old, and therefore adults, not children)
    In the meantime, up until those opportunities came about, were they taught your religion by you and other followers?
    If one of your children at the age of 10 had said “I no longer want to follow your religion, I don’t believe any of it”, would you have allowed them that privilege? (Don’t forget, telling lies is a sin)

  12. #72

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    [/COLOR]

    Yes, Christianity, if you consider Christianity to be a religion (which I don't), i.e. not a relationship with a person, just a follower of an ideology or philosophy. My two sons grew up in a Christian home and were free to choose their own path. They had ample opportunity to turn away (away at university, leaving home to get married etc.) but they have not. We never coerced them - what teenagers would accept that! There is an expression "to love people into the kingdom" - do you seriously think that anyone today could be bullied into becoming a Christian?
    You didn’t answer my first question.

  13. #73

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    [/COLOR]

    Yes, Christianity, if you consider Christianity to be a religion (which I don't), i.e. not a relationship with a person, just a follower of an ideology or philosophy. My two sons grew up in a Christian home and were free to choose their own path. They had ample opportunity to turn away (away at university, leaving home to get married etc.) but they have not. We never coerced them - what teenagers would accept that! There is an expression "to love people into the kingdom" - do you seriously think that anyone today could be bullied into becoming a Christian?
    It is pretty obvious that a religious upbringing affects the belief systems of children in quite a fundamental manner. If people were allowed to be religion-free until adulthood the results would be different as to how they perceive the world and the eventual religious or non-religious path that they would follow. Creating a belief system in a child is a very strong influence and a considerable traction, something that has been recognised by purveyors of religious and political dogmas throughout time.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathl...b_5664805.html

    "In our first study, we found that children’s judgments about characters in biblical narratives were strongly affected by their upbringing. Children who had had some form of religious education - via church, parochial school or both — generally judged the central character to be a real person. Children who did not have religious education — who did not go to church and went to a secular school — largely judged the central character to be fictional.

    In a follow-up study, we obtained a similar pattern for what we might call quasi-biblical stories — stories that included miraculous events but not ones that children would read about in the Bible. For example, we told children a story about the parting of the mountains. Religious children were more likely than non-religious children to think that the main character was real."

  14. #74

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    God is supposed to be omnipresent ......everywhere , all the time , watching over us ......you don't seriously believe that do you ?
    He's been replaced by the Snoopers Charter

  15. #75

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    It is pretty obvious that a religious upbringing affects the belief systems of children in quite a fundamental manner. If people were allowed to be religion-free until adulthood the results would be different as to how they perceive the world and the eventual religious or non-religious path that they would follow. Creating a belief system in a child is a very strong influence and a considerable traction, something that has been recognised by purveyors of religious and political dogmas throughout time.

    https://www.huffingtonpost.com/kathl...b_5664805.html

    "In our first study, we found that children’s judgments about characters in biblical narratives were strongly affected by their upbringing. Children who had had some form of religious education - via church, parochial school or both — generally judged the central character to be a real person. Children who did not have religious education — who did not go to church and went to a secular school — largely judged the central character to be fictional.

    In a follow-up study, we obtained a similar pattern for what we might call quasi-biblical stories — stories that included miraculous events but not ones that children would read about in the Bible. For example, we told children a story about the parting of the mountains. Religious children were more likely than non-religious children to think that the main character was real."
    I'm quite sure this is correct, in fact thinking about it, it is stating the bleeding obvious as they say. However surely it works both ways? If children are told that Christianity is a load of bull, should we be surprised that they reject it?

  16. #76

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    So they had to wait until they were teenagers and went to Uni or left home to get married before they could make their own decision? (Meaning they were about 18 years old, and therefore adults, not children)
    I say again, what modern teenagers would blindly follow what their parents say/do? I was brought up in a Christian home myself but at secondary school I rejected Christianity totally (aged about 14 probably). This was because I was very interested in science and thought, as many people do, that science had all the answers and had debunked Christianity as a myth/nice story. I became a Christian in my early 40’s because I took the trouble to stand back and take a serious look at it.

    In the meantime, up until those opportunities came about, were they taught your religion by you and other followers?
    They had lots of school friends from secular homes but still came to church with us and learnt about Jesus, yes. Where else would they learn it? They didn’t have to do that as undoubtedly they were ridiculed by some for it.

    If one of your children at the age of 10 had said “I no longer want to follow your religion, I don’t believe any of it”, would you have allowed them that privilege? (Don’t forget, telling lies is a sin)
    Of course I would. After all I did exactly that! Not sure if at 10 a child is mature enough to make such a decision though?

  17. #77

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    You didn’t answer my first question.
    Sorry, what first question?

  18. #78
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    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Of course I would. After all I did exactly that! Not sure if at 10 a child is mature enough to make such a decision though?
    Mature enough to reject or blindly follow their parents beliefs? As you said to a different point - it works both ways.

    My parents were Congregationalists (Roath Park Congregationalist Church originally) - what became the United Reformed Church. I was brought up to go to church, Sunday School and the local scouts. However, when I was 12 I went to a series of church membership evening meetings with half a dozen others my age with the minister at The Manse. These went through the whole gammut of beliefs and practices in the church and the normal outcome was that a few weeks later the group would be accepted into the church at a brief ceremony during the service. After 6 weeks - aged 12 - I decided I was an atheist and never went to church again (until this summer for my dad's funeral). I also left the scouts at that time because of all the god and queen nonsense at the start of each meeting. And just to complete my transformation from a god-following dib-dib-dibber I bought and read The Communist Manifesto.

    My brother went through the same thing a little later and turned into a Buddhist.

    My Mam and Dad carried on in the church - she as a conformist; he as a self-labelling 'heretic' along with a few of his non-conformist mates. I doubt he ever believed in god or the devil or heaven or hell. The called himself (and others like him) a secular Christian.

    Maybe you are right that 10 is too young to form a view on these big issues, but 12 isn't.

  19. #79

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    God did nothing about that shooter in the church

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

  20. #80
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    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    God did nothing about that shooter in the church

    “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
    Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
    Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
    Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
    I know I'm wasting my time here, but God gives us free choice. Ideally to do good, but some of us also do evil.

    That said, I too find it very difficult to reconcile myself with the doctrine when such tragedies happen.

  21. #81
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    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    He's been replaced by the Snoopers Charter

  22. #82

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Free choice to be infected with aids at birth? Or free choice to get cancer as a child?

  23. #83

  24. #84

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Mature enough to reject or blindly follow their parents beliefs? As you said to a different point - it works both ways.

    My parents were Congregationalists (Roath Park Congregationalist Church originally) - what became the United Reformed Church. I was brought up to go to church, Sunday School and the local scouts. However, when I was 12 I went to a series of church membership evening meetings with half a dozen others my age with the minister at The Manse. These went through the whole gammut of beliefs and practices in the church and the normal outcome was that a few weeks later the group would be accepted into the church at a brief ceremony during the service. After 6 weeks - aged 12 - I decided I was an atheist and never went to church again (until this summer for my dad's funeral). I also left the scouts at that time because of all the god and queen nonsense at the start of each meeting. And just to complete my transformation from a god-following dib-dib-dibber I bought and read The Communist Manifesto.

    My brother went through the same thing a little later and turned into a Buddhist.

    My Mam and Dad carried on in the church - she as a conformist; he as a self-labelling 'heretic' along with a few of his non-conformist mates. I doubt he ever believed in god or the devil or heaven or hell. The called himself (and others like him) a secular Christian.

    Maybe you are right that 10 is too young to form a view on these big issues, but 12 isn't.
    a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
    god is not great : how religion poisons everything

  25. #85

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    Free choice to be infected with aids at birth? Or free choice to get cancer as a child?
    Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

    For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.

  26. #86

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

    For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.
    There's nowt complicated about human beings because they fall into one of two categories. They are either corrupt or corruptible. The corruptible are aged circa four and under.

  27. #87

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    The Yanks are not stupid enough to sacrifice their weapons as they know their number one enemy is their government.

  28. #88

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS View Post
    a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
    god is not great : how religion poisons everything
    Superb book

  29. #89

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by ian gibson View Post
    That sums it up very well

    If god does exist , he's a complete ****

  30. #90

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

    For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.
    Well kids do get home cancer and die young so clearly god is not loving or omnipresent or all powerful as he allows this to happen

    They say his son turned water into wine and fed the 5000 with loaves of bread and fish so surely his father can save young children , stop Hitler and Stalin etc ?

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