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Thread: 307 mass shooting

  1. #81
    International Mrs Steve R's Avatar
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    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    He's been replaced by the Snoopers Charter

  2. #82

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Free choice to be infected with aids at birth? Or free choice to get cancer as a child?

  3. #83

  4. #84

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Mature enough to reject or blindly follow their parents beliefs? As you said to a different point - it works both ways.

    My parents were Congregationalists (Roath Park Congregationalist Church originally) - what became the United Reformed Church. I was brought up to go to church, Sunday School and the local scouts. However, when I was 12 I went to a series of church membership evening meetings with half a dozen others my age with the minister at The Manse. These went through the whole gammut of beliefs and practices in the church and the normal outcome was that a few weeks later the group would be accepted into the church at a brief ceremony during the service. After 6 weeks - aged 12 - I decided I was an atheist and never went to church again (until this summer for my dad's funeral). I also left the scouts at that time because of all the god and queen nonsense at the start of each meeting. And just to complete my transformation from a god-following dib-dib-dibber I bought and read The Communist Manifesto.

    My brother went through the same thing a little later and turned into a Buddhist.

    My Mam and Dad carried on in the church - she as a conformist; he as a self-labelling 'heretic' along with a few of his non-conformist mates. I doubt he ever believed in god or the devil or heaven or hell. The called himself (and others like him) a secular Christian.

    Maybe you are right that 10 is too young to form a view on these big issues, but 12 isn't.
    a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
    god is not great : how religion poisons everything

  5. #85

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    Free choice to be infected with aids at birth? Or free choice to get cancer as a child?
    Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

    For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.

  6. #86

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

    For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.
    There's nowt complicated about human beings because they fall into one of two categories. They are either corrupt or corruptible. The corruptible are aged circa four and under.

  7. #87

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    The Yanks are not stupid enough to sacrifice their weapons as they know their number one enemy is their government.

  8. #88

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS View Post
    a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
    god is not great : how religion poisons everything
    Superb book

  9. #89

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by ian gibson View Post
    That sums it up very well

    If god does exist , he's a complete ****

  10. #90

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Surely free will relates to something I do as a person? What kind of person would deliberately infect a new-born baby with aids or give a child cancer, certainly not a loving God. If you are asking why would God allow this to happen, well that’s a different question and as I said in an earlier reply that’s one of the first questions I will have when I get to heaven.

    For now I reconcile myself to the fact that human beings are incredibly complicated biological machines. If they were non-biological machines of similar complexity then it would be amazing if they never went wrong and didn’t need repairing from time to time, or sadly, reach the stage of being beyond repair.
    Well kids do get home cancer and die young so clearly god is not loving or omnipresent or all powerful as he allows this to happen

    They say his son turned water into wine and fed the 5000 with loaves of bread and fish so surely his father can save young children , stop Hitler and Stalin etc ?

  11. #91

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    That sums it up very well

    If god does exist , he's a complete ****
    Enjoyed that little interview , what a very intelligent man Mr Fry is.
    The interviewers face was a picture

  12. #92
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS View Post
    a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
    god is not great : how religion poisons everything
    Thanks - it's on my 'to read' list.

  13. #93

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Superb book
    The wife got me it last Christmas mate
    i agree its a great read
    she ordered me one of his other books witch I'm waiting to be delivered
    Why ORWELL matters

  14. #94

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    USA: Where retrospective prayers are preferred to gun control. Says it all.
    SO very true, the fact they were gunned down in a church should really dent anyones belief in the power of prayer. The NRA has far too much political power.

  15. #95

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS View Post
    a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
    god is not great : how religion poisons everything
    Sapiens : A Brief History of Humankind is also a good book, as it goes right back to the very beggining of human development, and it explains how humans are more likely to believe in fairytales than the cold hard truth. Rulers and politians have been using this knowledge against us for thousands of years.

    While we may like to think we are smart because we can now see religion for what it is, the reality is they have developed a whole new bag of tricks which can be used to manipulate us and keep us in line. With the advent of TV, radio and the mass media, religion soon became superfluous to requirements as far more effective methods of control came in being. Religion was also expensive to run, and the clergy wanted a slice of the pie too. They still control huge assets which was payment for keeping the population under surveillance and teaching them how to think and behave, but as an organisation they are pretty much finished.

    BTW who do you think it was that first put these ideas into our heads that religion was a load of old tosh?

  16. #96

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Well kids do get home cancer and die young so clearly god is not loving or omnipresent or all powerful as he allows this to happen

    They say his son turned water into wine and fed the 5000 with loaves of bread and fish so surely his father can save young children , stop Hitler and Stalin etc ?
    It's interesting to note that many nonbelievers on here associate the concept of 'God' with the Abrahamist one, which is perhaps understandable due to the statistics at this point in history. For my part, all gods have the same status.
    It is also not without irony that Abrahamism is a wonderful example of schism upon schism and deep enmity between those endless schisms. It seems that the Abrahamism god not only has done nothing for 2,000 years but he can't keep his flock from fracturing and setting themselves against each other.

  17. #97

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    It's interesting to note that many nonbelievers on here associate the concept of 'God' with the Abrahamist one, which is perhaps understandable due to the statistics at this point in history. For my part, all gods have the same status.
    It is also not without irony that Abrahamism is a wonderful example of schism upon schism and deep enmity between those endless schisms. It seems that the Abrahamism god not only has done nothing for 2,000 years but he can't keep his flock from fracturing and setting themselves against each other.
    ...and adopting different collections of literature as their guide along the way, of course.

  18. #98

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    ...and adopting different collections of literature as their guide along the way, of course.
    Our book is the truth , no it isnt, ours is !!

  19. #99

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS View Post
    a book you may enjoy on the subject Jon by the late Christopher Hitchens
    god is not great : how religion poisons everything
    Awesome book. Hitchens could've made a speech claiming that the grass is blue and the sky is green and I think he might almost sway my views on that. You might say that his political views weren't always popular, but regardless of that he was a great speaker and an intellectual powerhouse. I've spent countless hours watching YouTube videos of him and wishing we still had him here today.

  20. #100

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Sapiens : A Brief History of Humankind is also a good book, as it goes right back to the very beggining of human development, and it explains how humans are more likely to believe in fairytales than the cold hard truth. Rulers and politians have been using this knowledge against us for thousands of years.

    While we may like to think we are smart because we can now see religion for what it is, the reality is they have developed a whole new bag of tricks which can be used to manipulate us and keep us in line. With the advent of TV, radio and the mass media, religion soon became superfluous to requirements as far more effective methods of control came in being. Religion was also expensive to run, and the clergy wanted a slice of the pie too. They still control huge assets which was payment for keeping the population under surveillance and teaching them how to think and behave, but as an organisation they are pretty much finished.

    BTW who do you think it was that first put these ideas into our heads that religion was a load of old tosh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Sapiens : A Brief History of Humankind is also a good book, as it goes right back to the very beggining of human development, and it explains how humans are more likely to believe in fairytales than the cold hard truth. Rulers and politians have been using this knowledge against us for thousands of years.

    While we may like to think we are smart because we can now see religion for what it is, the reality is they have developed a whole new bag of tricks which can be used to manipulate us and keep us in line. With the advent of TV, radio and the mass media, religion soon became superfluous to requirements as far more effective methods of control came in being. Religion was also expensive to run, and the clergy wanted a slice of the pie too. They still control huge assets which was payment for keeping the population under surveillance and teaching them how to think and behave, but as an organisation they are pretty much finished.

    BTW who do you think it was that first put these ideas into our heads that religion was a load of old tosh?
    I just had a quick peruse of this review from the guardian
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...al-noah-harari
    that actually looks very interesting Bales Thank you mate
    thats going on my Christmas list

    your question has kind of stumped me with it being so philosophical
    but for me personally it was
    my earliest possible memory would be when I was 6 years of age
    I had a cream coloured Labrador dog named Sandy.
    One winter on a walk over the woods in the snow he ran across the ice on the river the ice broke and he went under and got trapped
    firemen even waded in on with a rope attached to them to bring him out gave him the kiss the life
    as I prayed for Sandy to be alright , he wasn't he died
    then I got slightly older 8 or 9 maybe
    and I possibly just did not buy it and religious people always came across as untrustworthy cruel hypocrites I don't think it was an individual or a group of of people generally , something instinctively felt it was a form of control "do this or you will be hurt"
    my fathers side of the family my Grandfathers funeral service was last year was a humanist service
    my mothers parents they was in a church with mass (optional)
    Maybe media,tv ect has had an impact or maybe as you get a bit older you read more literature, get information I don't know,
    Wasn't karl Marx that quoted something about religion being the opium to the people (I'm not sure on the exact quote)

    what about you mate ?

  21. #101

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Tokyo Blue View Post
    Awesome book. Hitchens could've made a speech claiming that the grass is blue and the sky is green and I think he might almost sway my views on that. You might say that his political views weren't always popular, but regardless of that he was a great speaker and an intellectual powerhouse. I've spent countless hours watching YouTube videos of him and wishing we still had him here today.
    so so true Blue,
    his videos have me in stiches

  22. #102

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS View Post
    so so true Blue,
    his videos have me in stiches
    Him , Dawkins , Bill Hicks and George Carlin have it nailed , some of Ricky gervais stuff on religion and the Bible is very sharp

  23. #103

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Him , Dawkins , Bill Hicks and George Carlin have it nailed , some of Ricky gervais stuff on religion and the Bible is very sharp
    Bill Hicks and George Carlin they certainly nailed it
    I have only just discovered Dawkins (while reading Hitch) his vids on You tube another switched on man
    witch one of his books would u advice me on reading first sludge ?

  24. #104

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    I always find it ironic that some people who have survived a catastrophic event thank 'God' without bearing in mind that the same deity must have therefore decided that those who perished in the same event were not worthy of sparing.

  25. #105
    International Mrs Steve R's Avatar
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    Re: 307 mass shooting

    This is a great book, it was sent to me to help cure me of all those silly conspiracy theories but it actually had the opposite effect, imo Sagan was very awake and it was pretty obvious to me that he could see a future for this planet that he didn't like..

    Carl Sagan - The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
    http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/book...ed%20World.pdf

    If you don't have time to read the whole thing there are some greats quotes from it..
    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quote...he-dark?page=2

    “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”

  26. #106

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS View Post
    I just had a quick peruse of this review from the guardian
    https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...al-noah-harari
    that actually looks very interesting Bales Thank you mate
    thats going on my Christmas list

    your question has kind of stumped me with it being so philosophical
    but for me personally it was
    my earliest possible memory would be when I was 6 years of age
    I had a cream coloured Labrador dog named Sandy.
    One winter on a walk over the woods in the snow he ran across the ice on the river the ice broke and he went under and got trapped
    firemen even waded in on with a rope attached to them to bring him out gave him the kiss the life
    as I prayed for Sandy to be alright , he wasn't he died
    then I got slightly older 8 or 9 maybe
    and I possibly just did not buy it and religious people always came across as untrustworthy cruel hypocrites I don't think it was an individual or a group of of people generally , something instinctively felt it was a form of control "do this or you will be hurt"
    my fathers side of the family my Grandfathers funeral service was last year was a humanist service
    my mothers parents they was in a church with mass (optional)
    Maybe media,tv ect has had an impact or maybe as you get a bit older you read more literature, get information I don't know,
    Wasn't karl Marx that quoted something about religion being the opium to the people (I'm not sure on the exact quote)

    what about you mate ?
    I think the answer is in the above mentioned book. You can make people believe absolutely anything if you know how. It worked for around 2,000 years regarding religion, but I'm guessing that with the advent TV, radio & media, religion was allowed or even encouraged to die, as it had already served it's purpose. There is also the socialist/communist subversive element which included the destruction of religion as a core doctrine, but by this time the Tavistock Institute and others like Edward Bernays had already worked out how to replace it.

    Once you know the rules of the game the role of slogans, repeat messaging, news by ommision, nudge units, propaganda, misinformation/disinformation, conformation bias, bogeymen, etc, becomes very clear. We are like putty in the hand for those who have agendas and big ideas to implement

  27. #107

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Another potentially interesting thread descends into the same old stuff by the same 2 posters.

  28. #108

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    I think the answer is in the above mentioned book. You can make people believe absolutely anything if you know how. It worked for around 2,000 years regarding religion, but I'm guessing that with the advent TV, radio & media, religion was allowed or even encouraged to die, as it had already served it's purpose. There is also the socialist/communist subversive element which included the destruction of religion as a core doctrine, but by this time the Tavistock Institute and others like Edward Bernays had already worked out how to replace it.

    Once you know the rules of the game the role of slogans, repeat messaging, news by ommision, nudge units, propaganda, misinformation/disinformation, conformation bias, bogeymen, etc, becomes very clear. We are like putty in the hand for those who have agendas and big ideas to implement
    I am sure I have watched an interview or a documentary about the Tavistock Institute
    about their methods of social engineering and brainwashing
    I understand its non profit charity too ?

  29. #109

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by I.8.POLITICAL.CORRECTNESS View Post
    Bill Hicks and George Carlin they certainly nailed it
    I have only just discovered Dawkins (while reading Hitch) his vids on You tube another switched on man
    witch one of his books would u advice me on reading first sludge ?
    The god delusion

  30. #110

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs Steve R View Post
    This is a great book, it was sent to me to help cure me of all those silly conspiracy theories but it actually had the opposite effect, imo Sagan was very awake and it was pretty obvious to me that he could see a future for this planet that he didn't like..

    Carl Sagan - The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark
    http://www.metaphysicspirit.com/book...ed%20World.pdf

    If you don't have time to read the whole thing there are some greats quotes from it..
    https://www.goodreads.com/work/quote...he-dark?page=2

    “One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It’s simply too painful to acknowledge, even to ourselves, that we’ve been taken. Once you give a charlatan power over you, you almost never get it back.”
    Cosmos is a superb book

  31. #111

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    I always find it ironic that some people who have survived a catastrophic event thank 'God' without bearing in mind that the same deity must have therefore decided that those who perished in the same event were not worthy of sparing.
    He went to church , they didn't

  32. #112

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    I think the answer is in the above mentioned book. You can make people believe absolutely anything if you know how. It worked for around 2,000 years regarding religion, but I'm guessing that with the advent TV, radio & media, religion was allowed or even encouraged to die, as it had already served it's purpose. There is also the socialist/communist subversive element which included the destruction of religion as a core doctrine, but by this time the Tavistock Institute and others like Edward Bernays had already worked out how to replace it.

    Once you know the rules of the game the role of slogans, repeat messaging, news by ommision, nudge units, propaganda, misinformation/disinformation, conformation bias, bogeymen, etc, becomes very clear. We are like putty in the hand for those who have agendas and big ideas to implement
    Anyone who describes modern capitalism as an ugly prison gets my vote , sounds like a cracking read

  33. #113

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    I think the answer is in the above mentioned book. You can make people believe absolutely anything if you know how. It worked for around 2,000 years regarding religion, but I'm guessing that with the advent TV, radio & media, religion was allowed or even encouraged to die, as it had already served it's purpose. There is also the socialist/communist subversive element which included the destruction of religion as a core doctrine, but by this time the Tavistock Institute and others like Edward Bernays had already worked out how to replace it.

    Once you know the rules of the game the role of slogans, repeat messaging, news by ommision, nudge units, propaganda, misinformation/disinformation, conformation bias, bogeymen, etc, becomes very clear. We are like putty in the hand for those who have agendas and big ideas to implement
    The joy of government is that the people are stupid so said Adolf Hitler

  34. #114

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    Another potentially interesting thread descends into the same old stuff by the same 2 posters.
    People in this thread seem to be putting forward their thoughts an an articulate manner and without getting into personal spats and making ad hominem attacks. If you are the original Croesy Blue you should perhaps take note.

  35. #115

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    The god delusion
    cheers

  36. #116

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    While we do not really have Religious threads as they always end up the same way, this one appears to have run without incident

    if anyone has / is taking offense at anything that has been written, then please PM me

  37. #117

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    While we do not really have Religious threads as they always end up the same way, this one appears to have run without incident

    if anyone has / is taking offense at anything that has been written, then please PM me


  38. #118

    Re: 307 mass shooting

    Carl Sagan is trending on Twitter.

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