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Thread: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

  1. #41

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by dembethewarrior View Post
    I beg to differ.

    There is a bloke in my local area who has a flat yet sleeps rough.

    Also the brother of an ex councillor who sleeps rough.
    People who choose life on the streets aren't really a problem. There is enough provision for the tiniest number of genuine people that genuinely choose to live in a box rather than a flat. It is provision for the rest of the rough sleepers wider homeless that's lacking.

  2. #42

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Lets stop discussing he says /she says re politics and talk reality

    So we have someone who is on drugs/alcoholic, who is homeless, has no money, no job and needs to get off their habit.

    The response is we need to build them a house, pay their rent for them , fit out the house with white goods etc then when we have done that - we need to get them off drugs, stop them drinking, get them trained up and then try and find them a job.

    Have I missed anything ? end to end any idea how much that costs when everything is taken into account?

    The budget is set,so there is only so much to go round, what budget would you cut to get them housed,trained,educated, clean, and employed.

    Unfortunately it seems politicians of all colours dont see this as a priority - a sad fact of life.
    Maybe if councils, non Doms and large corps stop doing dodgy offshore deals there would be enough for everyone.
    I wont hold my breath
    What you've described as the answer is what is now commonly known as the 'Housing First' model. The theory and results show that the initial costs to providing housing and continued support will prevent individuals costing the public pot more in health, police and social care costs.

  3. #43

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    I beg to differ a little, Sludge if I may, it is cheaper to use private Landlords (if you can find them) to house people rather than build the property yourself, and maintain it ie white goods, maintenance etc

    Merthyr council I think were offering a deal to private landlords - if you had a 1 bed flat, they would pay the Landlord £500 a month, guarantee the rent full occupancy for 5 years and they would also do the maintenance themselves. I had a mate who had a 2 x 1 bed flats - he had murder with tennants not paying, smashing the place up etc. He bit their hand off when they offered it to him - guaranteed hassle free / maintenance free rent - it worked out cheaper for the council than having to buy land , build a houses / flats etc.

    I would argue that this is the best of both worlds - private sector carries the cost build / purchase, public sector guarantees the rent and conditions of the property. It didnt extend to maintenance of roofs etc though or rewires - just general stuff

  4. #44

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    I'd build a sort of pre - fab estate down on Rover Way , and provide warmth and food and offer them a place ,along with minimum benefits and make it illegal to beg.

  5. #45

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    What a bunch of tossers the conservatives are
    In the interests of balance and fairness, I would just like to point out what a bunch of tossers those Labourites and Lib Dems are.

  6. #46

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Shipping containers are the way forward for emergency housing

    cheap to buy and convert, enough space for a single person / couple, not much they can wreck ( and i have worked on council housing and house association stock for many years, they smash them to bits and when the council / housing ass take them to court from the money end up saying they can afford 50p per week and they never pay it )

    I know the popular cry will be ( it looks like a prison cell ) but its a warm place to sleep with a small kitchen, all self contained and they can come and go as they like

    Infact, i will go as far as the shipping container idea will be the future for people starting on the housing ladder

  7. #47

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Wonder how many places are like this

    https://www.reddit.com/r/LateStageCa...read_from_the/

  8. #48

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    Shipping containers are the way forward for emergency housing

    cheap to buy and convert, enough space for a single person / couple, not much they can wreck ( and i have worked on council housing and house association stock for many years, they smash them to bits and when the council / housing ass take them to court from the money end up saying they can afford 50p per week and they never pay it )

    I know the popular cry will be ( it looks like a prison cell ) but its a warm place to sleep with a small kitchen, all self contained and they can come and go as they like

    Infact, i will go as far as the shipping container idea will be the future for people starting on the housing ladder
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-28035388

  9. #49

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by joecity View Post
    People who choose life on the streets aren't really a problem. There is enough provision for the tiniest number of genuine people that genuinely choose to live in a box rather than a flat. It is provision for the rest of the rough sleepers wider homeless that's lacking.
    Completely agree.

    It's really sad when you think that there is nowhere for so many people to sleep away from the harsh elements.
    Summer may not be so bad but then there's still the whole "where do I keep my personal stuff and where can I was every day

    Wouldn't liken to be a female on the streets, bet that gets pretty bad with their 'women's problems'

    Gives me an empty feeling to know that so many people are being failed.

    The ignorant among us will blame drink and drugs (often comes a little while after being homeless from experience of talking to people on streets and D&A councillors)
    Everyone deserves a roof over their head and running water...

  10. #50

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    To just blame a single political party is very short sighted ,its too complex to badge this issue , a lot of funded councils are not all Tory , how many are homeless in
    London Boroughs run by Labour ?

  11. #51

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by dembethewarrior View Post
    I beg to differ.

    There is a bloke in my local area who has a flat yet sleeps rough.

    Also the brother of an ex councillor who sleeps rough.
    They may have become that way inclined, but how did they start sleeping in the street, in the very first place ? A whim?
    Ok I'll rephrase my earlier post -
    Not many people willingly choose a tough life living rough on the streets.

  12. #52

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    If there were enough homes to go round then house prices would plummet. That would be bad news for homeowners, bad news for landlords and extremely bad news for banks who would make far less interest on mortgage loans. Money they don't actually have, by the way.

  13. #53

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Vimto View Post
    They may have become that way inclined, but how did they start sleeping in the street, in the very first place ? A whim?
    Ok I'll rephrase my earlier post -
    Not many people willingly choose a tough life living rough on the streets.
    I'd be guessing if I tried to answer, maybe being anonymous has something to do with it.

  14. #54

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    If there were enough homes to go round then house prices would plummet. That would be bad news for homeowners, bad news for landlords and extremely bad news for banks who would make far less interest on mortgage loans. Money they don't actually have, by the way.
    Very interesting, and probably 100% true.

    Why care if there are people on the streets as long as house prices stay high..

    There are multi million pound houses in rich boroughs of London that are practically falling apart..owned by super rich Russians etc...

  15. #55

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    I beg to differ a little, Sludge if I may, it is cheaper to use private Landlords (if you can find them) to house people rather than build the property yourself, and maintain it ie white goods, maintenance etc

    Merthyr council I think were offering a deal to private landlords - if you had a 1 bed flat, they would pay the Landlord £500 a month, guarantee the rent full occupancy for 5 years and they would also do the maintenance themselves. I had a mate who had a 2 x 1 bed flats - he had murder with tennants not paying, smashing the place up etc. He bit their hand off when they offered it to him - guaranteed hassle free / maintenance free rent - it worked out cheaper for the council than having to buy land , build a houses / flats etc.

    I would argue that this is the best of both worlds - private sector carries the cost build / purchase, public sector guarantees the rent and conditions of the property. It didnt extend to maintenance of roofs etc though or rewires - just general stuff
    That is only one part of a housing strategy. There is a role for private rented but where are the new private rented properties being built. Certainly the price tag of new build property excludes a value for money month rent scenario on a buy to let mortgage along with profit. Private rents are truly eye watering and often poor value for money. The tenancy is not secure either so cant really be considered long term solution. The council, housing associations are building investments and will get a return over a period. Don't forget the shortfall in housing benefit in private rented is made up by the tenant leaving the poorest short and land owners chuckling. Trying to save a deposit in private rented is hard enough for the next bond/months rent let alone a house. Home ownership has never been so far away for many. Time to build. A mix of housing provision is the answer.

  16. #56
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    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    10 x 8 berth second hand caravans on a bit of waste land. If it's good enough for the travelling community.
    Got to be better than Queen St.

  17. #57

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Tandy View Post
    10 x 8 berth second hand caravans on a bit of waste land. If it's good enough for the travelling community.
    Got to be better than Queen St.
    Interesting thought, although the travelling community are universally disliked, they seem to be self efficient with a desire to fix their housing plight

  18. #58

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Tandy View Post
    10 x 8 berth second hand caravans on a bit of waste land. If it's good enough for the travelling community.
    Got to be better than Queen St.
    You'll have a bit of trouble fitting a few thousand in them.


    ....right sentiment though.

    Churches, community centres etc the possibilities are there...but you'd need people there to man them too...

  19. #59

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Proper homes. Lots of them. Previous government's have done it.

  20. #60
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    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by joecity View Post
    Proper homes. Lots of them. Previous government's have done it.
    There are 10,000 people on the housing waiting list in Cardiff.
    Any ideas?

  21. #61

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by joecity View Post
    Proper homes. Lots of them. Previous government's have done it.
    Where’s the money coming from for these new homes? Lots of them? Have you any idea how much a single new house costs even here in Wales?

  22. #62

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by joecity View Post
    Proper homes. Lots of them. Previous government's have done it.
    Labour from 1997 to 2010 certainly didn't. Blair pledged 200,000 per year, Brown aimed for 240,000 a year (the number experts believed were necessary). Between them they averaged 185,000 in that 13-year span.

  23. #63

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    To just blame a single political party is very short sighted ,its too complex to badge this issue , a lot of funded councils are not all Tory , how many are homeless in
    London Boroughs run by Labour ?

    Since 2010 , Tory government

    Benefits reform leading to rent arrears and homelessness

    Tory cuts to social services , drug and alcohol intervention tems

    Selling even more fecking council houses and housing association properties and failing to replace those sold as they said they would

    Too fecking right it's the Tory government who are responsible

  24. #64

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    Where’s the money coming from for these new homes? Lots of them? Have you any idea how much a single new house costs even here in Wales?
    Well the Tories found money to bribe the DUP to get a government together

    It's their watch now and they are overseeing a massive housing crisis

    The problem is the Tory party never have and never will give a feck about the vulnerable in society as they don't vote for them

  25. #65

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Shipping containers probably don't cost the world...if I had a choice between a shop doorway and a modified shopping container I know where I'd go...

  26. #66

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Well the Tories found money to bribe the DUP to get a government together

    It's their watch now and they are overseeing a massive housing crisis

    The problem is the Tory party never have and never will give a feck about the vulnerable in society as they don't vote for them
    I’ll ask again - wheres the money coming from for all these new houses?

    It’s a straightforward, direct question.

  27. #67

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    Labour from 1997 to 2010 certainly didn't. Blair pledged 200,000 per year, Brown aimed for 240,000 a year (the number experts believed were necessary). Between them they averaged 185,000 in that 13-year span.
    I am no fan of Blair , he was Thatcher in a suit

  28. #68

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    I beg to differ a little, Sludge if I may, it is cheaper to use private Landlords (if you can find them) to house people rather than build the property yourself, and maintain it ie white goods, maintenance etc

    Merthyr council I think were offering a deal to private landlords - if you had a 1 bed flat, they would pay the Landlord £500 a month, guarantee the rent full occupancy for 5 years and they would also do the maintenance themselves. I had a mate who had a 2 x 1 bed flats - he had murder with tennants not paying, smashing the place up etc. He bit their hand off when they offered it to him - guaranteed hassle free / maintenance free rent - it worked out cheaper for the council than having to buy land , build a houses / flats etc.

    I would argue that this is the best of both worlds - private sector carries the cost build / purchase, public sector guarantees the rent and conditions of the property. It didnt extend to maintenance of roofs etc though or rewires - just general stuff
    But it is short-sighted in my view. £500 a month for a decade = £60,000. Surely the cost of building a single-bed flat in a block would be less than that. In the long term, paying private landlords instead of building has to work out more expensive. If you factor in the ability to be able to buy a property, using private landlords is even more expensive again. Even if you factor in the cost of land, a council-owned property will surely cost less after 20 years than paying a private landlord to provide the same.

  29. #69

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    I’ll ask again - wheres the money coming from for all these new houses?

    It’s a straightforward, direct question.
    Sludge is right. Where did this government find £1bn to cling onto power? There might be the answer you're looking for. You could also ask where this government is finding the money to subsidise Brexit so the full effect isn't felt.

  30. #70

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Sludge is right. Where did this government find £1bn to cling onto power? There might be the answer you're looking for. You could also ask where this government is finding the money to subsidise Brexit so the full effect isn't felt.
    No, all I’m asking is where the money is coming from to build many, many new houses. Nothing else. Just that.

  31. #71

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Must say it’s good to see that political debate is now accepted on the main message board.

  32. #72

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    No, all I’m asking is where the money is coming from to build many, many new houses. Nothing else. Just that.
    I'll answer that one. The money can be created from thin air. Just like that 800 billion quid was in 2008 to bail out those bastard bankers.

  33. #73

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    I'll answer that one. The money can be created from thin air. Just like that 800 billion quid was in 2008 to bail out those bastard bankers.
    Who created 800b from thin air?

  34. #74

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Don't tell Sludge, it was the Labour government.

  35. #75

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    But it is short-sighted in my view. £500 a month for a decade = £60,000. Surely the cost of building a single-bed flat in a block would be less than that. In the long term, paying private landlords instead of building has to work out more expensive. If you factor in the ability to be able to buy a property, using private landlords is even more expensive again. Even if you factor in the cost of land, a council-owned property will surely cost less after 20 years than paying a private landlord to provide the same.
    I'm think Ninian Clark is describing a leasing scheme. These are used to place households in temporary accommodation. The local authority doesn't pay the rent though it comes from the leasing company who claw it back through Housing Benefit.

    It's definitely not Merthyr council either.

  36. #76

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    To just blame a single political party is very short sighted ,its too complex to badge this issue , a lot of funded councils are not all Tory , how many are homeless in
    London Boroughs run by Labour ?
    Councils have no money and are still being told they need to make cuts. Whether the council is Labour or Tory is irrelevant, what is to blame is the continual forced moulding of a selfish society where things are more important than people.

  37. #77

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Jordi Culé View Post
    I'm think Ninian Clark is describing a leasing scheme. These are used to place households in temporary accommodation. The local authority doesn't pay the rent though it comes from the leasing company who claw it back through Housing Benefit.

    It's definitely not Merthyr council either.
    Jordi - It's my mates brother who did this with his flat - I stand corrected if it's not Merthyr - next time I see him I'll ask.

  38. #78

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Councils have no money and are still being told they need to make cuts. Whether the council is Labour or Tory is irrelevant, what is to blame is the continual forced moulding of a selfish society where things are more important than people.
    That is certainly a big part of the problem.

  39. #79

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick View Post
    No, all I’m asking is where the money is coming from to build many, many new houses. Nothing else. Just that.
    It's coming from the same place as the £1bn for the DUP, Brexit subsidies etc. Maybe you'd like to question where the money is coming from for those.

  40. #80

    Re: Since the Tories came in , rough sleepers on the streets has doubled

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    Don't tell Sludge, it was the Labour government.
    Gideon would have done exactly the same. We should have said bollocks to the bankers.

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