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Thread: True socialism is the answer

  1. #151

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    You seem to be arguing with yourself. Everyone is in agreement that if you start with 5000 and sell 3000 you end up with 2000.

    It appears you struggle with the fact that in both cases the 2000 houses are the property of the council and are occupied by social tenant. In either cases RTB makes no difference to the ownership or occupancy of the 2000 houses.
    I am not struggling with anything , you seem to be a lone voice suggesting the right to buy has not reduced the social housing stock , despite overwhelming evidence that it has , I have given you links to follow up , I would suggest you follow them up and educate yourself

  2. #152

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    I agree with your first point (although rental income tends to be just a bit more than mortgage interest cost for landlords so it's not all down to nefarious private landlords) and partially agree with your second. That is, councils could spend the money raised after debt was paid off and the discount took into account how much rent and therefore repayment of initial debt the tenant he made.
    I think you will find Thatcher moved heseltine on because he wanted councils to be able to spend money replacing housing stock , but it was ring fenced hence the fall in new build

  3. #153
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    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I am not struggling with anything , you seem to be a lone voice suggesting the right to buy has not reduced the social housing stock , despite overwhelming evidence that it has , I have given you links to follow up , I would suggest you follow them up and educate yourself
    Repeating a lie does not make it a truth. At no point have I said RTB hasn't affected social housing stock. For want of repeating myself I have said that changing the ownership hasn't affected the overall housing stock.

  4. #154
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    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I think you will find Thatcher moved heseltine on because he wanted councils to be able to spend money replacing housing stock , but it was ring fenced hence the fall in new build
    Not relevant to what is being discussed.

  5. #155

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    Sludge

    In both cases the fleeing woman has a need for a new house as the husband is in situ. This need for a new house is unaffected by RTB
    The fact that we have less council houses due to right to buy means this lady wether she was a previous tenant or an owner occupier needs a council house to live in

    The council doesn't have these houses like they used to .....they have been sold and not replaced as the Tories promised .....and so the woman suffering domestic violence .......or another person in housing need ......is placed in temporary sub standard accommodation until a house comes up .......usually in about five years

    I am finished now , it's like banging ones head against a brick wall

  6. #156

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    Not relevant to what is being discussed.
    Entirely and directly relevant

    I am off to bed now

  7. #157
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    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    The fact that we have less council houses due to right to buy means this lady wether she was a previous tenant or an owner occupier needs a council house to live in

    The council doesn't have these houses like they used to .....they have been sold and not replaced as the Tories promised .....and so the woman suffering domestic violence .......or another person in housing need ......is placed in temporary sub standard accommodation until a house comes up .......usually in about five years

    I am finished now , it's like banging ones head against a brick wall
    You are arguing against yourself now. You accept that in both cases the domestic abuse victim would need to be housed in an entirely new house, which infers that in both cases we have a requirement for an entirely new build.

  8. #158
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    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Entirely and directly relevant

    I am off to bed now
    Relevant to what? We are discussing your claim that RTB impacted the UK housing stock.

  9. #159

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    [QUOTE=SLUDGE FACTORY;4815838]
    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post

    I am all up for debate but calling someone a gay lord lefty in this day in age is when I knock it on the head

    That's the sort of playground nonsense that's best left to kids , as they don't know any better

    Have a good evening comrade
    You self righteous throbbing **** . You start a thread like this and expect a reasoned debate . It is pointless trying to reason with you , you have one agenda which is left of left . Go and sing the red flag at Momentum Kenfig Hill meetings and dream of the day Mc Donell presents his first budget and clap and cheer that Britain will be in a better place 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

  10. #160

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    The thing which bothers me most about this thread is that so many people are totally one dimensional and cannot think beyond supporting one Political Party. How anyone can reconcile throwing money at everything and taxing business is good for the economy and the country's finances has a screw loose. Once I supported the Labour Party but cannot see how some of the barmy ideas of McDonnel and Co will be good for the nation's finances. Some of John Mc Donnel's utternaces are being shown on the BBC now and clearly he does not know the size of the nation's debt or the cost of servicing it. His deputy being interviewed by Andrew Neil now is equally clueless.

  11. #161

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    The thing which bothers me most about this thread is that so many people are totally one dimensional and cannot think beyond supporting one Political Party. How anyone can reconcile throwing money at everything and taxing business is good for the economy and the country's finances has a screw loose. Once I supported the Labour Party but cannot see how some of the barmy ideas of McDonnel and Co will be good for the nation's finances. Some of John Mc Donnel's utternaces are being shown on the BBC now and clearly he does not know the size of the nation's debt or the cost of servicing it. His deputy being interviewed by Andrew Neil now is equally clueless.
    Which barmy ideas?

  12. #162

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    [QUOTE=Rocco Siffredi;4816007]
    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post

    You self righteous throbbing **** . You start a thread like this and expect a reasoned debate . It is pointless trying to reason with you , you have one agenda which is left of left . Go and sing the red flag at Momentum Kenfig Hill meetings and dream of the day Mc Donell presents his first budget and clap and cheer that Britain will be in a better place 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
    You are obsessed with bottoms and calling people gay boys

    I think that tells me everything I need to know about you

    What a charming individual you are

    I think you need therapy to sort out these issues

    Good luck , I won't be chatting with you again

  13. #163

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    The thing which bothers me most about this thread is that so many people are totally one dimensional and cannot think beyond supporting one Political Party. How anyone can reconcile throwing money at everything and taxing business is good for the economy and the country's finances has a screw loose. Once I supported the Labour Party but cannot see how some of the barmy ideas of McDonnel and Co will be good for the nation's finances. Some of John Mc Donnel's utternaces are being shown on the BBC now and clearly he does not know the size of the nation's debt or the cost of servicing it. His deputy being interviewed by Andrew Neil now is equally clueless.
    Well that's your opinion , you clearly don't vote Labour so are naturally going to take the view that the current lot are barmy

    My view is we need socialism more than ever as free market capitalism since Thatcher has got us to where we are today .......Blair was Maggie in a suit , that wasn't socialism

  14. #164

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    Relevant to what? We are discussing your claim that RTB impacted the UK housing stock.
    Thatcher gave massive incentives to council tenants to buy their own properties but ring fenced the money from those sales and prevented councils from using that money to build new houses ........apart from the council's who had plenty of money ......the predominantly tory led ones in the shires .......hence the stock of social housing was directly reduced by the right to buy .......heseltine tried to argue with Thatcher that money from the sales needed to be freed up to build replacement stock but she refused and moved him in a cabinet reshuffle

    That's a fact , you may not like it but it's a fact

    This really is my last reply to you feedback or whatever your username has changed to now , the evidence of the effect of right to buy on the social housing stock of this country is out there , I have even given you the title of a book written by an expert on social housing policy , there are numerous articles online that back this up , from people working in the social housing sector, if that's not good enough for you then I am wasting my time , in fact I have just wasted two minutes of my life typing this

  15. #165

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Well that's your opinion , you clearly don't vote Labour so are naturally going to take the view that the current lot are barmy

    My view is we need socialism more than ever as free market capitalism since Thatcher has got us to where we are today .......Blair was Maggie in a suit , that wasn't socialism
    The difference between us is that I am prepared to listen to all sides of an argument and vote accordingly.

  16. #166
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    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    The thing which bothers me most about this thread is that so many people are totally one dimensional and cannot think beyond supporting one Political Party. How anyone can reconcile throwing money at everything and taxing business is good for the economy and the country's finances has a screw loose. Once I supported the Labour Party but cannot see how some of the barmy ideas of McDonnel and Co will be good for the nation's finances. Some of John Mc Donnel's utternaces are being shown on the BBC now and clearly he does not know the size of the nation's debt or the cost of servicing it. His deputy being interviewed by Andrew Neil now is equally clueless.
    current interest on debt is £60bn. I would prefer that to be spent on the NHS, schools, infrastructure rather than giving it to financial institutions. If we reduced the debt and therefore interest payments we would have exceptional public services

  17. #167
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    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Thatcher gave massive incentives to council tenants to buy their own properties but ring fenced the money from those sales and prevented councils from using that money to build new houses ........apart from the council's who had plenty of money ......the predominantly tory led ones in the shires .......hence the stock of social housing was directly reduced by the right to buy .......heseltine tried to argue with Thatcher that money from the sales needed to be freed up to build replacement stock but she refused and moved him in a cabinet reshuffle

    That's a fact , you may not like it but it's a fact

    This really is my last reply to you feedback or whatever your username has changed to now , the evidence of the effect of right to buy on the social housing stock of this country is out there , I have even given you the title of a book written by an expert on social housing policy , there are numerous articles online that back this up , from people working in the social housing sector, if that's not good enough for you then I am wasting my time , in fact I have just wasted two minutes of my life typing this
    you appear to confuse total housing stock with social housing stock, the latter being a subset of the former. I have never made any comment about RTB not impacting social housing stock. For want of repeating myself, i have said RTB does not impact total housing stock (how can it possibly impact housing stock when only the legal owners have changed?).

    RTB has reduced social housing stock, but it has also reduced the numbers of people needed social housing by the same amount. Therefore whatever demand existed for new social housing before RTB existed after RTB, when all other factors are considered and taken into account.

  18. #168

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Hi Sludge - don want to make a long thread even longer, but when did Housing Associations come into being ? , I thought HA's came into play to replace what was council houses as in some are purely rent while others are 50/50 - so when the house is sold - the HA get 50% of the sale price which is then reused to build more etc.

    There is a stigma attached to "council housing" - then gives the young who live there the impression they are second best, I think with the encouragement of housing associations to help the occupants own half the home - at least it gives them some self worth and aspiration for the future, rather than relying on hand outs and the council to paint their home for them etc.

    I understand peoples arguments though re there being not as much council housing stock available - but the HA approach seems a preferable halfway solution to me.
    Housing associations were very much favoured by Thatcher as they were seen as less politically labour than the big councils .....further proof that Thatcher's pushing of the right to buy was politically motivated

    But housing associations were far too small in number to provide enough social housing to replace that lost to council house sales .........and the Tories are now allowing housing association tenants to buy their homes , further eroding the social housing stock ...... they really are unbelievable ......of course they told the voters that for every housing association property sold they would build a new one , but surprise surprise that hasn't happened

  19. #169

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    The difference between us is that I am prepared to listen to all sides of an argument and vote accordingly.
    So you are happy with the fact the Tories came in with the promise of wiping out the deficit in a parliament yet have time and time again put that date back ?

    And are borrowing like crazy ?

    And the poor and vulnerable are being shafted by continuing austerity

    Well I have listened to that side of the arguement and it's not enticing me I am afraid

  20. #170

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    So you are happy with the fact the Tories came in with the promise of wiping out the deficit in a parliament yet have time and time again put that date back ?

    And are borrowing like crazy ?

    And the poor and vulnerable are being shafted by continuing austerity

    Well I have listened to that side of the arguement and it's not enticing me I am afraid
    Do you mean the deficit built up by the former Labour government?

    While the overall total of borrowing has increased which is inevitable where there is a deficit. The deficit has been reduced substantially.

    How much do you think a Labour government would have to borrow to fund the cancellation of PFI projects, cancellation of student debt, free tuition fees, rail privatisation, increased public sector pay etc etc. Probably around an additional £700bn. And you blame the Tories for excessive borrowing. Are you having a laugh?

    You might have a point about the poor and vulnerable but surely increased benefits means even more borrowing which you seem to be concerned about.

    I am not expecting you to vote Tory but merely suggest you keep a more open mind.

  21. #171

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Which barmy ideas?
    All of them which are soundbite politics triyong to falsely appeal to left leaning nieave voters who don't remeber the day week,what i want as a socialist its so much on increasing debt to stupid levels to rationalise industries, but to think of a new way of funding things like the NHS ie a penny on everyone's tax , charge for uncessary GP visits , apply a dentistry type of treatment charges .

    Let Universities manage school budgets instead of councils .

    Merge councils to save tax payers uncessary duplication of services.

    Let the wealthy pay for thier health including prescriptions in Wales.

    Bring in more road an congestion tolls to clean up the cities and fund public transport .

    Say no to union demands such as the crazy current rail pay award in the south west.

    Say no to immigration unless they arrive for a job we can't fill.

    Call for a second referendum on Brexit ,that would probaly get them elected .


    Just a few ideas ,much better than copying the old chaos politics of the 70''s

  22. #172

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    Do you mean the deficit built up by the former Labour government?

    While the overall total of borrowing has increased which is inevitable where there is a deficit. The deficit has been reduced substantially.

    How much do you think a Labour government would have to borrow to fund the cancellation of PFI projects, cancellation of student debt, free tuition fees, rail privatisation, increased public sector pay etc etc. Probably around an additional £700bn. And you blame the Tories for excessive borrowing. Are you having a laugh?

    You might have a point about the poor and vulnerable but surely increased benefits means even more borrowing which you seem to be concerned about.

    I am not expecting you to vote Tory but merely suggest you keep a more open mind.
    I am no fan of the previous labour government , socialist they were not

    The Tories are borrowing because their deficit reduction plans have been a disaster , they still haven't got rid of it and I have no doubt it's going to start going back up again

    You may not like to hear this but the Tories in opposition backed labours spending plans and the bailing out of the banks to a penny

    I voted labour with a heavy heart with Blair , brown and milliband in charge , corbyn however is wakening up socialism in this country and its about time as far as I am concerned

  23. #173

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    I note you haven't answered my response on borrowing but if you think Labour's socialist agenda will reduce the deficit then the best of luck with that. The sad thing is that Andrew Neil exposed Labour's fragility on borrowing this lunchtime where neither McDonnel or his deputy couldn't even grasp what borrowing means. Your mind is so closed to socialism that I shan't bother to respond anymore to this exchange of views. Life is just too short.

  24. #174

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    I note you haven't answered my response on borrowing but if you think Labour's socialist agenda will reduce the deficit then the best of luck with that. The sad thing is that Andrew Neil exposed Labour's fragility on borrowing this lunchtime where neither McDonnel or his deputy couldn't even grasp what borrowing means. Your mind is so closed to socialism that I shan't bother to respond anymore to this exchange of views. Life is just too short.
    I have , it's just you don't like the answer

    May is losing her grip , the Tory party is falling apart and the majority of the country have had enough of the Tories

    She called an election and it backfired , she is propped up by a bunch of religious zealots and labour will be ready

    You take care now

  25. #175

    Re: True socialism is the answer

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I have , it's just you don't like the answer

    May is losing her grip , the Tory party is falling apart and the majority of the country have had enough of the Tories

    She called an election and it backfired , she is propped up by a bunch of religious zealots and labour will be ready

    You take care now
    C'mon, Sludge, Corbyn would transform Britain in to Goatfeckistan with even greater enthusiasm than Blair, Brown and Cameron summoned.

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