Redundant statistics in football

[the other bob wilson]

We aren't the worst passers though.
You could have 40 passes go to feet under no challenge and keep the ball and create nothing.

Or 9 passed, create 2 chances and lose the ball once.

The stat is, as the op says, meaningless unless it's contextualised, which it mostly isn't.

We create loads of chances, score goals and get shots in. You don't do that if you don't pass the ball EFFECTIVELY

There are times when our passing is absolutely shocking - these periods usually last for fifteen to twenty minutes or so and it's a great tribute to our defensive organisation and resilience that we haven't conceded too many goals during these horror spells when the ball just keeps coming back at us.

We also need better passing when we're defending a narrow lead in the closing stages of games - we do use the ball effectively when we are attacking, but there are times when you want to take the heat out of the game and we're poor at doing that when it comes to retaining possession.

I think Neil Warnock would gladly settle for 40 per cent possession in every game, but I've noticed that he has been critical of our passing in games we have lost or played poorly in (he mentioned it about the Birmingham match when he was interviewed on Sky before Monday's game) and I believe that he would get concerned if our possession figure consistently was at something like 30% - I'm sure he sends his team out with the intention of having more of the ball than that.

[Lawnmower]

There are times when our passing is absolutely shocking - these periods usually last for fifteen to twenty minutes or so and it's a great tribute to our defensive organisation and resilience that we haven't conceded too many goals during these horror spells when the ball just keeps coming back at us.

We also need better passing when we're defending a narrow lead in the closing stages of games - we do use the ball effectively when we are attacking, but there are times when you want to take the heat out of the game and we're poor at doing that when it comes to retaining possession.

I think Neil Warnock would gladly settle for 40 per cent possession in every game, but I've noticed that he has been critical of our passing in games we have lost or played poorly in (he mentioned it about the Birmingham match when he was interviewed on Sky before Monday's game) and I believe that he would get concerned if our possession figure consistently was at something like 30% - I'm sure he sends his team out with the intention of having more of the ball than that.

Sometimes our passing is poor. Sometimes we panic clear for long spells , but that doesn't make us the 'worst passers' and more than the pointless stat does.

I'm not sure that keeping the ball always wears the opposition out. We are one of the strongest finishers to the game for a start.
I also noticed that Wales against Ireland's were working really hard passing the ball around in our own half whilst Ireland were happily jogging in between.

Again, it's all in context. At times on Monday Reading had us running around in circles, but on many occasions just made passes which put their defence and keeper under pressure and had to put in a lot of effort to clear in the end. Our passing overall was more effective and done in danger areas. Ironically Reading caused us most problems when they knocked it long behind us for their wingers to get onto, often forcing set pieces which of course got them their 2 goals.

It's far ,far more complex that the stars can explain

[City123]

Nobody genuinely looking at stats uses such basic measures these days.
Things like pass maps, xgchain, passing quality models etc are much better

I agree with you, stats are very important in football however the media are still obsessed with the basics such as possession and it frustrates me when they use such basic stats to back up the narrative that we're long ball merchants

[Harry Monk]

A team in second place should never be the worst passers of the ball in the division though and it's a part of the game that we need to be better at - ironically, I though we passed it better than normal last night.

If you have the lowest possession, you haven't got the ball much to be able to pass it. All this stats bollox means nothing, the only stat that counts is the goals for and against at the end of the game.

[Rjk]

If you have the lowest possession, you haven't got the ball much to be able to pass it. All this stats bollox means nothing, the only stat that counts is the goals for and against at the end of the game.

Yes and no.

If you batter the opposition but they fluke a lucky 1-0 win for a couple of games in a row the way you will address that is different than if you've been battered three games in a row.
Luck plays a big part in the league position at the end of the season, most measures put it as +/- 15 points at l the end of a 38 game season.
Good use of stats can help you work out how good you really are and what needs to be improved.
Possession and pass completion used alone are pretty meaningless though.

[The Bloop]

Didn't Celtic have something like 11% possession when they beat Barcelona 2-1 a few years ago?

[dembethewarrior]

Didn't Celtic have something like 11% possession when they beat Barcelona 2-1 a few years ago?

Yes.

But in all honesty if we were doing it that way I'd be embarrassed. That's probably how other teams see us..as delusional as it is.
As it goes on proud of our team and the way it plays. Very effective aren't we!!!

[thehumblegringo]

Didn't Celtic have something like 11% possession when they beat Barcelona 2-1 a few years ago?

These things will swing in roundabouts but for me possession of the ball is something I love to see and this is where we see the best of quality players like Silva, Messi, Iniesta etc.

It more often than not comes from teams that like to play on the front foot and as long as it's possession with a purpose then it's what I love watching.

Thankfully there are coaches like Pep Guardiola who having been found out by Bayern in the champions league semi final with their explosive counter attacking when he was at Barca a few years back has evolved possession football to another level again to make it dominant again.

[dembethewarrior]

Agree with the pep comments.

It's not just the fact he's got money, obviously it does help, but you only have to see how man city are so different tbis year now they all seem to know what their roles are. He's getting the best out of a few too and that's got to be down to him and how he helps players off the pitch.

Sterling has come on miles.
Walker looks a better player this year.
Delph..he was only bought to fill an English quota wasn't he...ever present..
Silva and KDB are unreal this year.

It's like a big **** you to everyone who said he would only ever do it at Barca with an inherited team.

[lardy]

Sport is funny these days, we seem to use stats for a benchmark on how good the team is

My daughter gets her stats from netball e.mailed to her the day after a game, she will often say " who cares about my pass stats being XX% and my shooting stats being XX when i have scored 27 out of the 40 goals scored " she has a point, but at training the coach goes through all the stats and as she plays GA or GS her goals scored must be the most important, but the coach will often say she needs to improve on this stat of that stat

have we lost sight of the real numbers in games

Dont only two players in a netball team get to shoot?

I doubt anyone's forgotten about the real numbers, but as players move up the levels then factors other than shooting become more important. Or knowing a player scored 27 from 30 shots rather than another scoring 27 from 50 shots.

Personally, I would have loved to have seen stats like that when I was a young footballer. Or even for my team now. It would improve me, no question.

[lardy]

Pep holds the all-time record for most consecutive league wins in Spain, Germany and England as a manager. No one can doubt that he's one of the best of all-time, even if he's only managed big clubs.

[Pearcey3]

The statistic that matters most is the one that records which side has scored the most goals in any given game. I thought your passing was alright on Monday night.
Reading do overplay at the back. As do Wales. Think Hennessey and Williams against Ireland.

[Lawnmower]

The statistic that matters most is the one that records which side has scored the most goals in any given game. I thought your passing was alright on Monday night.
Reading do overplay at the back. As do Wales. Think Hennessey and Williams against Ireland.

Exactly. At the Wales game it was our players who were working hard trying to pass it around in areas where we couldn't afford to lose it and Ireland just jogging back and forth almost like a line dancing troupe.

We were the ones looking tired at the end.

It was similar on Monday, although I'd say City play much better football than the Irish, the Irish looked very very well drilled and organised

[Pearcey3]

Exactly. At the Wales game it was our players who were working hard trying to pass it around in areas where we couldn't afford to lose it and Ireland just jogging back and forth almost like a line dancing troupe.

We were the ones looking tired at the end.

It was similar on Monday, although I'd say City play much better football than the Irish, the Irish looked very very well drilled and organised

You certainly play much better football than Ireland. The Irish are organised and well drilled but their football belonged in the dark ages.

[NYCBlue]

A decent possession side will punish you, tire you out as you chase shadows.
Some of the teams at our level attempt it and don't go nowhere.
What's the point of doing something and only being a little bit effective? We do what we do and it is effective. I'll take that.

It depends what they do with that possession, if they pass and create no threat, then there's no point in chasing them down. If they pass and move the ball forward with any amount of pace, then they're going to have to do plenty of running off the ball, so it can work both ways.

[dembethewarrior]

It depends what they do with that possession, if they pass and create no threat, then there's no point in chasing them down. If they pass and move the ball forward with any amount of pace, then they're going to have to do plenty of running off the ball, so it can work both ways.

Well, as they're decent, I'd imagine they would use it well.