Strange priorities on this board.

[the other bob wilson]

American politics analysed to a minute degree, but not a word when the UK Government is defeated on a vote regarding the most important thing to happen in domestic politics this century;-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42346898

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...llion-so-wrong

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ls-summit.html

[CardiffIrish2]

American politics analysed to a minute degree, but not a word when the UK Government is defeated on a vote regarding the most important thing to happen in domestic politics this century;-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42346898

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...llion-so-wrong

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ls-summit.html

Great minds Bob, I just mentioned that completely OTT daily mail front page.

Brexit.....the shit storm that just keeps giving and making the UK a laughing stock

[Auntie Andy]

I havent had a chance to read any of it yet, listened to radio5 this morning though for 30 minutes.
"Meaningful vote" ? what is that compared to the vote they were going to get anyway ? - wasnt it the difference between an Act of Parliament or something else ?

From what I heard - the hardline Brexiteers did it as they wanted to make sure the Govt didnt wriggle out of it at the end.

The Remainers wanted it - so they had the opportunity to pass or defeat the 'deal'. Eitherway from what I can see it would be a Pyrrhic victory. If a deal has been agreed - then it has been agreed. SO Parliament would then have the choice of accept the deal on the table or NOT. I guess voting NOT would then mean WTO rules.

Depending on your viewpoint - you can understand this in different ways.

Leaving the EU means leaving the customs union / single market etc. Customs union seems to be a bit of a racket anyway - artificially setting prices to 'protect' EU(UK) industries or on the other hand keeping up prices for food & clothes - which affects the poorer in society. In very simplistic terms - we can buy our food / clothes direct - at lower prices as we wouldnt put a tarif on it - is what the Brexiteers have argued.

The reverse side of it it - if you make cheese in the UK - you want a certain base price for it, if we let in American cheese for example - people may prefer to buy it as its cheaper (as well as awful to taste). I dont think the French cheese makers would be happy with their Govt or the EU if all of a sudden their sales of cheese to the UK are hit hard.

So after all this - I wont be losing too much sleep over a political point scoring piece by the Guardian or the end of the world piece by the Daily Mail.

Plus - I just heard that this vote was not the end of it, it now goes off to the Reporting Stage - which basically gives the Govt the chance to include amendments / clauses etc.

What it does do - is slightly weaken the negotiating hand of the UK, they now know that everything has to be agreed via Parliament at the end. So that is good for the EU and bad for the UK. Brexiteers may not get the full on 'out' and Remainers will get a weakened deal - as we have given them the upper hand, they (the EU) will offer less - albeit slightly.

From the BBC - which is probably the best neutral commentary you are likely to get :-
What difference does this defeat make?
It will not derail Brexit but MPs who voted against the government hope it will give them a bigger say in the final deal Theresa May strikes with Brussels.

The government had promised a "meaningful vote" for MPs on the final Brexit deal, but this defeat means that promise now has legal force and must happen before any UK-EU deal is implemented in the UK.

Ministers had resisted this move because they wanted the ability to start implementing any deal as soon as it was agreed - in case, for instance, it was only agreed at the last minute.

BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said it would embolden the opposition and showed there was a majority in Parliament against a "hard Brexit".

Cabinet Minister Jeremy Hunt told BBC Radio 4: "I don't think it should be a surprise that in a hung Parliament, Parliament wants to reassert its right to scrutinise the process.

"But we should also be clear this isn't going to slow down Brexit, it's not going to stop Brexit."

He was asked whether the vote meant MPs would now have the power to force the government back to the negotiating table if they don't like whatever Brexit deal is negotiated between the UK and the EU.

Mr Hunt said: "Parliament can say whatever it wants but of course renegotiation is something that involves two parties."

My viewpoint :-
Remainers / reluctant Brexiteers - may want to deliberately confuse and obfuscate - in the hope that the whole thing is postponed an election called and a second referendum offered - aka the Tony Blair solution.

Brexiteers - by voting against this have weakened their own hand.

Typing that has made a 30 minute train go a lot faster than usual - feel free to ignore it, but it helped pass my time.

No wonder you don’t earn much money some weeks, you spend most of it on here trying to bore us to death.

PS no I haven’t read this post

[Auntie Andy]

Dont fecking read them then - simple solution - press the ignore button - do it right now, right this very second.

My business interests are not your concern Auntie Andy, I'll let you know when they are, but Im doing ok - thanks for your interest.

touched a nerve have I? You were only saying the other week that you’re income is below the poverty line. Just checking all OK and that you are managing OK.

[Wales-Bales]

If we ever leave the EU I will eat my hat

The USA is interesting politically because of their current anti-globalisation stance, which will arguably have a greater impact on the world compared to Brexit.

[Pearcey3]

If we ever leave the EU I will eat my hat

The USA is interesting politically because of their current anti-globalisation stance, which will arguably have a greater impact on the world compared to Brexit.

I hope you’re right recBrexit but Maybis just a puppet for the rabid Tory Brexiteers so for that reason I think we will leave.

[Wales-Bales]

That's is my line about nerves being touched pal

I said that some weeks I have earned below the figures you quoted - and sometimes a lot more. So for the weeks when I have earned below that I am officially in relative poverty .....

The ignore button is there for a reason - you should use it if my comments are giving you a nervous breakdown princess

A lot of folk around these parts play the man and not the ball, and I consider the reason for this being a lack of tidy education.

[Vimto]

A lot of folk around these parts play the man and not the ball, and I consider the reason for this being a lack of tidy education.

[Pearcey3]

I had an untidy education innit

[Nick]

A lot of folk around these parts play the man and not the ball, and I consider the reason for this being a lack of tidy education.

[Vimto]

I had an untidy education innit

Tidy Butt

[cyril evans awaydays]

A lot of folk around these parts play the man and not the ball, and I consider the reason for this being a lack of tidy education.

Could also be that being stuck on top of a fence most of the time makes someone an easier target!

[CardiffIrish2]

Tidy Butt

It’s tidy like aarrr kid, this is Cardiff remember 👍


😂

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I havent had a chance to read any of it yet, listened to radio5 this morning though for 30 minutes.
"Meaningful vote" ? what is that compared to the vote they were going to get anyway ? - wasnt it the difference between an Act of Parliament or something else ?

From what I heard - the hardline Brexiteers did it as they wanted to make sure the Govt didnt wriggle out of it at the end.

The Remainers wanted it - so they had the opportunity to pass or defeat the 'deal'. Eitherway from what I can see it would be a Pyrrhic victory. If a deal has been agreed - then it has been agreed. SO Parliament would then have the choice of accept the deal on the table or NOT. I guess voting NOT would then mean WTO rules.

Depending on your viewpoint - you can understand this in different ways.

Leaving the EU means leaving the customs union / single market etc. Customs union seems to be a bit of a racket anyway - artificially setting prices to 'protect' EU(UK) industries or on the other hand keeping up prices for food & clothes - which affects the poorer in society. In very simplistic terms - we can buy our food / clothes direct - at lower prices as we wouldnt put a tarif on it - is what the Brexiteers have argued.

The reverse side of it it - if you make cheese in the UK - you want a certain base price for it, if we let in American cheese for example - people may prefer to buy it as its cheaper (as well as awful to taste). I dont think the French cheese makers would be happy with their Govt or the EU if all of a sudden their sales of cheese to the UK are hit hard.

So after all this - I wont be losing too much sleep over a political point scoring piece by the Guardian or the end of the world piece by the Daily Mail.

Plus - I just heard that this vote was not the end of it, it now goes off to the Reporting Stage - which basically gives the Govt the chance to include amendments / clauses etc.

What it does do - is slightly weaken the negotiating hand of the UK, they now know that everything has to be agreed via Parliament at the end. So that is good for the EU and bad for the UK. Brexiteers may not get the full on 'out' and Remainers will get a weakened deal - as we have given them the upper hand, they (the EU) will offer less - albeit slightly.

From the BBC - which is probably the best neutral commentary you are likely to get :-
What difference does this defeat make?
It will not derail Brexit but MPs who voted against the government hope it will give them a bigger say in the final deal Theresa May strikes with Brussels.

The government had promised a "meaningful vote" for MPs on the final Brexit deal, but this defeat means that promise now has legal force and must happen before any UK-EU deal is implemented in the UK.

Ministers had resisted this move because they wanted the ability to start implementing any deal as soon as it was agreed - in case, for instance, it was only agreed at the last minute.

BBC political editor Laura Kuenssberg said it would embolden the opposition and showed there was a majority in Parliament against a "hard Brexit".

Cabinet Minister Jeremy Hunt told BBC Radio 4: "I don't think it should be a surprise that in a hung Parliament, Parliament wants to reassert its right to scrutinise the process.

"But we should also be clear this isn't going to slow down Brexit, it's not going to stop Brexit."

He was asked whether the vote meant MPs would now have the power to force the government back to the negotiating table if they don't like whatever Brexit deal is negotiated between the UK and the EU.

Mr Hunt said: "Parliament can say whatever it wants but of course renegotiation is something that involves two parties."

My viewpoint :-
Remainers / reluctant Brexiteers - may want to deliberately confuse and obfuscate - in the hope that the whole thing is postponed an election called and a second referendum offered - aka the Tony Blair solution.

Brexiteers - by voting against this have weakened their own hand.

Typing that has made a 30 minute train go a lot faster than usual - feel free to ignore it, but it helped pass my time.

It's a fascinating situation. In my opinion, the vast majority of people who voted for Brexit had no idea of the effects and consequences of their vote and the profound changes it will bring. However, the EU is highly flawed and its direction only exacerbates the situation.
However, one thing I have learned over the years is not to place my future in the hands of the plebiscite. You only have to witness some of the vox pop street interviews on TV to see what I mean.

[Vimto]

I wonder what would happen if we had the referendum again.
Probably - certainly - the same sandstorm of misinformation, confusion and agitprop.
And probably the same result - give or take a percent or two. Oh ..hang on...

Like WB, I still think there is quite the possibility that 'Brexit' won't actually occur, for whatever reason(s).

[CardiffIrish2]

It's a fascinating situation. In my opinion, the vast majority of people who voted for Brexit had no idea of the effects and consequences of their vote and the profound changes it will bring. However, the EU is highly flawed and its direction only exacerbates the situation.
However, one thing I have learned over the years is not to place my future in the hands of the plebiscite. You only have to witness some of the vox pop street interviews on TV to see what I mean.

There was a woman interviewed the other day saying in regards to Irish border question
‘The Irish lost they need to get over it’

Case proved TB

[CardiffIrish2]

There are a few things everyone should have known - but didnt - downsides only -

Staying in
5 Presidents report should be compulsory reading as it details the future roadmap of the EU eg
4 new countries joining (not including Turkey) those 4 countries have unemployment from 25 - 32.5% - which mean cheap Labour for companies in UK,Germany, France. It also means more people coming here (not a problem) but that in turn means more school places, more housing, more Doctors appointments etc etc.
TTIP - was due to introduced.
Greater political and economic integration
EU defence force
UN security council- the EU wanted a place on it - and would replace UK and France
Plus the same old sh1t - of a common agricultural policy, tarifs, lack of economic growth etc etc

Leaving:-
Financial Services are not covered by WTO rules
Ireland border issues
Various EU agencies leaving the UK and issues with then aligning UK standards to EU standards (all of which can be got round IMO)
Export data - should not include the sale of Gold - as that doesnt actually leave the UK and skews the figures

Everyone needs to understand what the Customs Union and Single Market are
And once you understand that - then you can have a vote

The understanding of that will take this lifetime and the next....

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Interesting stuff, ninian. For my part, I am quite surprised as to how the Euro has survived when the economies of member countries are so very different. What are your objective thoughts on that front?

[Organ Morgan.]

Central banks have pumped an estimated $20 trillion of funny money into the world's financial system since 2008. It saved the euro and all the rest of 'em, and as a consequence have created asset bubbles everywhere. But bubbles always pop - we just don't know when these currencies will crash and burn. But there's a big clue emerging which everyone's finding hard to ignore.

Horus.jpg

[life on mars]

American politics analysed to a minute degree, but not a word when the UK Government is defeated on a vote regarding the most important thing to happen in domestic politics this century;-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42346898

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...llion-so-wrong

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ls-summit.html

Not much said about Russia , North Korea, Venezuela,Pakistan ,Afghanistan,Serbia,Libya , Somalia , god I could go on .

I dont like Tories but some folk out there are treated like shit , modern Tories do apply social morals and policies , far better than the Thatcher years ,we do need to lose the chip on the shoulder aspect when it comes to voting , we are a lucky people, and we need to consider and appreciate that that, whoever is leading us

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I know the thread was about Brexit - but to answer your point :-

I dont know mate - but from what I have read up on , the Euro would havd and should have folded around the 2007/8 crash - it was only because of a massive liquidity injection by the ECB (european central bank) - remember all those bail outs of Greece, then there was issues with Italy and Ireland - they are all in 'hoc' to the ECB now. Germany effectively keeps the euro afloat. Which is similar to what we did here with the Bank of England bailout of the banks because of toxic debt in America aka sub prime mortgages.

Interestingly if you ever listen to Yanis Varoufakis - the ex Greek finance minister - he has a very different take on it. He reckons it was deliberate by the Germans (sounds like an Allo Allo plot - but it's not as daft as it sounds), they loaded Greece with debt in order to keep their own banks afloat - like a cash cow ala Sam Hammam with us. There is also a good video with Andreas Antonopoulos re the Greek problem - which also applies

It's funny to hear Greeks complaining about the Germans using their political might to conquer them and much of Europe while Germans complain about subsidising Greece and other poor EU countries.

[Organ Morgan.]

Not much said about Russia , North Korea, Venezuela,Pakistan ,Afghanistan,Serbia,Libya , Somalia , god I could go on .

I dont like Tories but some folk out there are treated like shit , modern Tories do apply social morals and policies , far better than the Thatcher years ,we do need to lose the chip on the shoulder aspect when it comes to voting , we are a lucky people, and we need to consider and appreciate that that, whoever is leading us

I think I've read enough of your posts to know you don't do tongue-in-cheek, and that was a serious contribution.

I have to ask what's been moral about Cameron and May's all-out assault on society's poorest and weakest for the past seven years? I don't recall Thatcher going after the disabled (quite the contrary occurred as she wanted people to claim Incapacity Benefit in order to manipulate the unemployment rate lower) and I don't recall her governments freezing working age benefits or Child Benefit either.

Either I'm dreaming or you're clueless.

[life on mars]

I think I've read enough of your posts to know you don't do tongue-in-cheek, and that was a serious contribution.

I have to ask what's been moral about Cameron and May's all-out assault on society's poorest and weakest for the past seven years? I don't recall Thatcher going after the disabled (quite the contrary occurred as she wanted people to claim Incapacity Benefit in order to manipulate the unemployment rate lower) and I don't recall her governments freezing working age benefits or Child Benefit either.

Either I'm dreaming or you're clueless.

I'll show you some respect and not call you clueless ,the point I was making is that although the alleged nasty Tories are in power they have more of a social morality than those countries /governments I listed , hopefully you can now understand the point I was making.

[Organ Morgan.]

'modern Tories do apply social morals and policies , far better than the Thatcher years' - those are your remarks I addressed, and I stand by them.

[Organ Morgan.]

Source DWP via fullfact.org stats

Attachment 2012

Attachment 2013

Those graphs don't reveal the thousands (circa four, I believe) of people suffering from serious conditions who died since 2010 within a few months of being deemed fit for work, nor the pure vindictiveness of re-testing people with progressive illnesses, or the sky high percentage of claimants who win disability appeals having wrongly been found capable of work. In addition, closure of Remploy factories was outrageous. Having said all that, Labour, should they ever return to power, will retain the same regime and keep those factories closed.