Football Association adopts 'Rooney Rule'

[ccfc_is_my_life]

I was listening to Talk Sport talking about this yesterday and they had Leroy Rosenior on to ask him his thoughts.

He said that just giving an interview to a bme person was not really an equal opportunity. They need to go that one step further and give them jobs as the bme’s needed more of “leg up” than a white person because of the way bmes have been treated in this past.

Which then just perpetuates divisions based upon skin pigmentation...

Fans couldn't give a shit if someone if pink, grey, black, green with yellow spots or even a f*cking alien as long as they do a good job. Nor could chairmen.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

At least they are then hearing ideas, and processes from different people. In some cases the employer maybe impressed by what they are hearing and take a different course. In some cases (and i would guess the majority) they may then choose what is comfortable to them.

I think everyone want people to get the job on their own merit. However a system which allows more people from different back grounds to display their merits, should surely do no harm.

True, but you are working off the assumption that minorities are being deliberately overlooked. Is it true? We don't know how many minorities are applying, and we have no way to compare percentages of white applicants getting an interview v minority applicants that get an interview.

All this rule does is put a token person at the interview stage. I can't see how that will improve the percentage of minorities in management. If it does improve in the next 5 years, then I will still struggle to see that it is the aRooney rule that made a difference.

[qccfc]

True, but you are working off the assumption that minorities are being deliberately overlooked. Is it true? We don't know how many minorities are applying, and we have no way to compare percentages of white applicants getting an interview v minority applicants that get an interview.

All this rule does is put a token person at the interview stage. I can't see how that will improve the percentage of minorities in management. If it does improve in the next 5 years, then I will still struggle to see that it is the aRooney rule that made a difference.

I'd pretty much agree with all you are saying. We know next to nothing about the football application to interview process.

The majority of football managers are ex players, who is to say that these are the better people for these roles. Maybe qualified individuals from outside the sport are better managers. Who knows how many people from outside the football environment actually apply and receive interviews, next to none i would imagine.

I would agree that we wont see an immediate uptake in roles, i agree with a lot of the points made.

However i don't really understand the outrage. There are some positives in the idea, and when its only offering the opportunity of an interview i don't really have a problem with it.

[David Vincent]

I agree but in the real world people sometimes need a push to assess others equally. Not necessarily because they are being racist but because we're naturally drawn to people who are similar to ourselves.

As a white British male I didn't really appreciate it until I lived in Asia and got overlooked a lot because I was different.

You were overlooked because you were not a native. In every part of the world except Western Europe and the English speaking countries it is the norm to give preference to the majority group over minority groups. For example, as an outsider you will pay more for everything than a local. In the West this has been reversed. Preference is given to the minority group. You will find that the Merit verses Quota criterion will be changed so that it always suits the minority group. There is an over-representation of black footballers but that is ok because they are there through merit. There is an under-representation of black managers so we must use the quota rule now instead of merit.

[lardy]

You were overlooked because you were not a native. In every part of the world except Western Europe and the English speaking countries it is the norm to give preference to the majority group over minority groups. For example, as an outsider you will pay more for everything than a local. In the West this has been reversed. Preference is given to the minority group. You will find that the Merit verses Quota criterion will be changed so that it always suits the minority group. There is an over-representation of black footballers but that is ok because they are there through merit. There is an under-representation of black managers so we must use the quota rule now instead of merit.

You speak with a lot of authority for someone who knows absolutely nothing about me. It was a race issue rather than simply not being native and I didn't pay more than locals for everything (or anything).

I found a way to adapt of course, but it wasn't in my chosen career, the area I have a degree in.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

I'd pretty much agree with all you are saying. We know next to nothing about the football application to interview process.

The majority of football managers are ex players, who is to say that these are the better people for these roles. Maybe qualified individuals from outside the sport are better managers. Who knows how many people from outside the football environment actually apply and receive interviews, next to none i would imagine.

I would agree that we wont see an immediate uptake in roles, i agree with a lot of the points made.

However i don't really understand the outrage. There are some positives in the idea, and when its only offering the opportunity of an interview i don't really have a problem with it.

I'm not outraged, but my concerns are that this rule is far more patronizing than it is supportive.

If I were a Black or Asian who was offered an interview - I'd have concerns about the motives/reasons for the invite. It's similar to the "one female on panel shows" rule the BBC adopted and has resulted in a number of women pulling out of such shows.

I think the problem in football is not so much racism, but risk aversion. I think that younger managers are being overlooked for tried and tested options like Moyes, Allardyce, even Warnock. It's just a coincidence that the managerial merry go round is filled with white men because many of them jumped on the ride 30 years ago and a fair few stay in the game into their late sixties or early seventies.

[Rjk]

Employers in US sports employ who they want. Just make sure you interview a minority candidate even if you have no intention of employing them.

But there has been an increase in bame coaches since the introduction of the rule, so perhaps one or two of these interviewees that they've had no intention of employing have surprised them

[Croesy Blue]

You were overlooked because you were not a native. In every part of the world except Western Europe and the English speaking countries it is the norm to give preference to the majority group over minority groups. For example, as an outsider you will pay more for everything than a local. In the West this has been reversed. Preference is given to the minority group. You will find that the Merit verses Quota criterion will be changed so that it always suits the minority group. There is an over-representation of black footballers but that is ok because they are there through merit. There is an under-representation of black managers so we must use the quota rule now instead of merit.

But they aren’t getting management jobs despite merit, isn’t that the point?

[David Vincent]

You speak with a lot of authority for someone who knows absolutely nothing about me. It was a race issue rather than simply not being native and I didn't pay more than locals for everything (or anything).

I found a way to adapt of course, but it wasn't in my chosen career, the area I have a degree in.

In China, India, Thailand and probably every Asian country the governments charge less for natives at all the tourist attractions. That is the official government policy. When it comes to dealing with natives in shops they will charge you whatever they think they can get out of you. If you weren't charged more than the natives then I wonder if this time you think you spent in Asia might be some delusion caused by extra strong spice or a bang on the head.

[ccfc_is_my_life]

But there has been an increase in bame coaches since the introduction of the rule, so perhaps one or two of these interviewees that they've had no intention of employing have surprised them

Increase, sure. Is that due to society changing or the Rooney Rule? I'd frankly be amazed if there was any change due to it.

No rule was needed for Black QBs to have significant number in NFL.

Sport management isn't like normal work. It's not like a chairman puts a job advert out there is it? In almost all cases, chairman has a preferred choice of manager they want. Unless that person pulls out, they get the gig - any interviews merely to conform with the rule which certainly in America is no longer needed.

[Rjk]

Increase, sure. Is that due to society changing or the Rooney Rule? I'd frankly be amazed if there was any change due to it.

No rule was needed for Black QBs to have significant number in NFL.

Sport management isn't like normal work. It's not like a chairman puts a job advert out there is it? In almost all cases, chairman has a preferred choice of manager they want. Unless that person pulls out, they get the gig - any interviews merely to conform with the rule which certainly in America is no longer needed.

http://static4.uk.businessinsider.co...8/cotd1213.png

Can't get the picture to post.
It looks to me as though the rule has certainly had an effect and it can't be down to changes in society. Has society changed that much since 2002?

[ccfc_is_my_life]

I'd say society has changed a bit. It always does.

Equally, there have been more "minority" coaches coming up from lower levels such as college. Over time, gives a bigger pool of "head coach" quality minority candidates.

The Rooney Rule has been ignored for years and rightly so. As I said, Gruden to Raiders was an open secret even before any interviews began. Raiders interviewed two minority coaches to conform to the rule. The decision was already made, was always going to be Gruden.

[David Vincent]

But they aren’t getting management jobs despite merit, isn’t that the point?

What proof have you that they are not getting the jobs on merit? I think the complaint is that black players are not getting the top jobs. The top managers are either highly intelligent people like Guardiola, Wenger and Mourinho who can all hold a conversation in three or more languages or they are very experienced oldish men with twenty five plus years management experience. There are very few players black or white in the first category and there are few black managers in the second category.

You might say that black players don't get a chance to show what they can do but there is nothing to stop them starting at the very bottom and working their way up. Sam Allardyce started at Limerick City.

[Rjk]

I'd say society has changed a bit. It always does.

Equally, there have been more "minority" coaches coming up from lower levels such as college. Over time, gives a bigger pool of "head coach" quality minority candidates.

The Rooney Rule has been ignored for years and rightly so. As I said, Gruden to Raiders was an open secret even before any interviews began. Raiders interviewed two minority coaches to conform to the rule. The decision was already made, was always going to be Gruden.

Gruden to raiders proves nothing about the effectiveness of the Rooney rule. Yes that one case may well have been effectively sewn up beforehand, but in others it is clearly working. And who is to say one of the BAME coaches that were interviewed didn't impress and won't get a chance the next time they're looking for a coach, which they wouldn't without the rule

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Gruden to raiders proves nothing about the effectiveness of the Rooney rule. Yes that one case may well have been effectively sewn up beforehand, but in others it is clearly working. And who is to say one of the BAME coaches that were interviewed didn't impress and won't get a chance the next time they're looking for a coach, which they wouldn't without the rule

You think there's only one case?

There's been a hardcore of BAME coaches getting interviews but never getting a head coach gig. Christ, want to comply with the rule? Fine, just interview a BAME assistant coach on your staff. Bingo, rule complied with...

There's no proof the Rooney rule has clearly worked. None whatsoever.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

But they aren’t getting management jobs despite merit, isn’t that the point?

How do we know this? Do you have examples?

[Blue in the Face]

Does making a person's career path easier than it should be really help? In my experience, obstacles, miss-steps, error, tests of skill and desire are essential antagonistic forces one needs to truly learn, excel and be the best one can be.

"The worst form of inequality is to try to make unequal things equal." – Aristotle

[Croesy Blue]

How do we know this? Do you have examples?

I’d think it should reflect the percentage of minorities in the game and in society as a whole is an example enough.

I imagine the fact they’ve brought this rule in is because there are examples of it. The FA aren’t ones for being proactive.

[J R Hartley]

I’d think it should reflect the percentage of minorities in the game and in society as a whole is an example enough.

I imagine the fact they’ve brought this rule in is because there are examples of it. The FA aren’t ones for being proactive.

So in other words you’re guessing.

If we playing the guessing game I’d guess it’s more likely to do damage the Aluko / Sampson case caused not because there are cases of wonderful black managers and coaches missing out on merit.

[Blue in the Face]

I’d think it should reflect the percentage of minorities in the game and in society as a whole is an example enough.

I imagine the fact they’ve brought this rule in is because there are examples of it. The FA aren’t ones for being proactive.

But those two percentages are not in line with each other. There are are higher percentages of non-white pro players in the English pyramid than there are non-white people living in England and Wales. Should we then discriminate the amount of non-white players who get to be pro players because it is not in line with percentages in society? This argument makes no sense to me.

If a chairman / employer discriminates based on race then they are clearly a moron who obviously is not worth working for.

[Rjk]

How do we know this? Do you have examples?

Why do you think there wouldn't be?

[lardy]

In China, India, Thailand and probably every Asian country the governments charge less for natives at all the tourist attractions. That is the official government policy. When it comes to dealing with natives in shops they will charge you whatever they think they can get out of you. If you weren't charged more than the natives then I wonder if this time you think you spent in Asia might be some delusion caused by extra strong spice or a bang on the head.

I didn't live in a country where you barter in shops.

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

Why do you think there wouldn't be?

That doesn't answer my question. If people provide examples then maybe they will convince me that the Rooney Rule is nothing more than a face saving exercise.

[Croesy Blue]

So in other words you’re guessing.

If we playing the guessing game I’d guess it’s more likely to do damage the Aluko / Sampson case caused not because there are cases of wonderful black managers and coaches missing out on merit.

Yes just an opinion really but there’s no real reason coaching and management jobs shouldn’t reflect the wider sociological percentages of football.

I don’t think it’s a perfect rule but hopefully does give a chance to someone talented who wouldn’t have got an interview. I don’t really see any big negative implications of it even if it isn’t perfect.

[Croesy Blue]

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