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Thread: Carillion oh verge of collapse

  1. #41

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I think we need a change in the prevailing attitude of the nation Conveyor belt of scandal after scandal and the thing they all have in common is the central characters appear to be needlessly greedy. We accept it though. The word aspiration has become attached to the accumulation of money, it is what we are all programmed to want.
    So, so true . We are seeing the consequences of the sea change which took place in the "I, me, mine" eighties.

  2. #42

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    So, so true . We are seeing the consequences of the sea change which took place in the "I, me, mine" eighties.
    I think the "I,me,mine" eighties came about after the "I'm on strike" "you cant sack me" era which prevailed in the 1970's. It all goes in cycles I guess.

    It looks like KPMG (horrible company) will now be investigated as so I heard - it was they who signed off the accounts, it is then that data that everyone trusts as being correct - investors, banks, clients, pension funds - all looking to grow their money.

    Carillion were a PLC, if they run their company badly - tough luck on them, anyone found to have mislead should have the same consequences imposed on them as they do in the states - jail time, just like Conrad Black etc.

    What is the happy medium ?, as Carillion have proven it's hard to run a profitable company that can win large public sector projects, margins were so tight it was impossible to keep it running.

    The alternative - 'We' the 'people' need to accept that we will have to pay more for these projects, the Govt need to pay for these projects using the money that they have in the bank - rather than putting it on PFI and end up paying 3 times the actual amount. I guess that either means a tax going up somewhere or another budget being cut somewhere else.

    As others have said - cutting the foreign aid budget by 50% would save us 6 billion a year. Making sure Apple,Google,StarBucks,FaceBook,McDonalds,Microsof t etc - pay the correct taxes here would also help.

  3. #43

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Mambo View Post
    I think the "I,me,mine" eighties came about after the "I'm on strike" "you cant sack me" era which prevailed in the 1970's. It all goes in cycles I guess.

    It looks like KPMG (horrible company) will now be investigated as so I heard - it was they who signed off the accounts, it is then that data that everyone trusts as being correct - investors, banks, clients, pension funds - all looking to grow their money.

    Carillion were a PLC, if they run their company badly - tough luck on them, anyone found to have mislead should have the same consequences imposed on them as they do in the states - jail time, just like Conrad Black etc.

    What is the happy medium ?, as Carillion have proven it's hard to run a profitable company that can win large public sector projects, margins were so tight it was impossible to keep it running.

    The alternative - 'We' the 'people' need to accept that we will have to pay more for these projects, the Govt need to pay for these projects using the money that they have in the bank - rather than putting it on PFI and end up paying 3 times the actual amount. I guess that either means a tax going up somewhere or another budget being cut somewhere else.

    As others have said - cutting the foreign aid budget by 50% would save us 6 billion a year. Making sure Apple,Google,StarBucks,FaceBook,McDonalds,Microsof t etc - pay the correct taxes here would also help.
    I believe the UK equivalent of jail time is being disqualified from being a Director for a period of time. Might hold back a dash of rum as the ex-CEO sips his cocktails in Barbados I suppose.

    The foreign aid budget is an interesting one. I would expect some trimming around the edges but I would doubt there would be any meaningful cuts for those countries where the UK wishes to negotiate material post-Brexit trade deals. How we treat India would be worth monitoring for instance.

  4. #44

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    I believe the UK equivalent of jail time is being disqualified from being a Director for a period of time. Might hold back a dash of rum as the ex-CEO sips his cocktails in Barbados I suppose.

    The foreign aid budget is an interesting one. I would expect some trimming around the edges but I would doubt there would be any meaningful cuts for those countries where the UK wishes to negotiate material post-Brexit trade deals. How we treat India would be worth monitoring for instance.
    I wouldnt be at all surprised if the Foreign aid budget somehow goes to countries we want to do more business with post Brexit.
    Same as I wouldnt be surprised if the CEO of Carillion donated to any party that just happened to be in Govt whoever it was.
    I would also be surprised if anything Carillion did was illegal, KPMG have a knack of keeping within the law whilst being able to sell sand to the arabs - and then charge a very large fee.

    Meanwhile back at the coal face, what will happen - Management buyout for certain Govt projects ?, an overseas company offers to take on the running of the hospital build and HS2 to completion - for a higher price obviously - or the whole thing grinds to a halt or ?

    Maybe the Govt should give temp contracts to all workers on the hospital builds and HS2, let the existing management run the project, the Govt underwrite the cheques - so sub contractors know they are safe, then when the projects come to an end, offer the workers / us a chance to buy into it ?

  5. #45

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Thatcher's legacy.

  6. #46

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Thatcher's legacy.
    Every PM has a legacy , for me
    Wilson / Callaghan legacy, strikes, unions, power cuts , 3 day weeks - "the sick man of Europe"
    Thatcher - the opposite of the above - but way too far the other way - ie privatisation etc
    Major - too weak - was he railway privatisation ?
    Blair - Student Fees, Iraq war,
    Gordon Brown - PFI debt
    Cameron - without any doubt Brexit - Clegg - immediate u turn on student fees.
    May - her legacy is still being written - but that will also be the type Brexit we get or not

  7. #47

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Mambo View Post
    Every PM has a legacy , for me
    Wilson / Callaghan legacy, strikes, unions, power cuts , 3 day weeks - "the sick man of Europe"
    Thatcher - the opposite of the above - but way too far the other way - ie privatisation etc
    Major - too weak - was he railway privatisation ?
    Blair - Student Fees, Iraq war,
    Gordon Brown - PFI debt
    Cameron - without any doubt Brexit - Clegg - immediate u turn on student fees.
    May - her legacy is still being written - but that will also be the type Brexit we get or not
    Some of these aren't really a legacy so much as they are things these people will be remembered for. PFI debt for instance is a legacy, we still feel the effect of that 'brainwave' now. Powercuts, not so much.

    Thatchers legacy is for certain a tilting in the attitude of British people towards personal ownership. I wasn't around, I don't know what people were like before but lots of the major political changes during her tenure were based around personal ownership, which unfortunately has helped to make the kind of irresponsible greed we see these days completely acceptable in society.

  8. #48

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Some of these aren't really a legacy so much as they are things these people will be remembered for. PFI debt for instance is a legacy, we still feel the effect of that 'brainwave' now. Powercuts, not so much.

    Thatchers legacy is for certain a tilting in the attitude of British people towards personal ownership. I wasn't around, I don't know what people were like before but lots of the major political changes during her tenure were based around personal ownership, which unfortunately has helped to make the kind of irresponsible greed we see these days completely acceptable in society.
    Going a bit off topic - as it is Carillion bad management we were talking about rather than politics. I listened today to various debates on the radio. A couple of things spring to mind - The Govt were a customer of Carillion, not the manager / directors of the company and do not run the company. The contract to build various hospitals / HS2 etc - the Govt has a contract to get these built with a consortia (a group of companies - so not just Carillion

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...chris-grayling

    So Carillion were building in conjuction with French company Eiffage , the TUC welcomed the contracts awarded to Carillion as a "shot in the arm for Brexit Britain"

    Balfour Beatty and French firm Bouygues also doing construction work. From the Guardian report :-
    (Im guessing these other companies will pick up the slack - on the HS2 project)

    HS2 phase 1 construction contracts
    Area South

    S1: Euston tunnels and approaches – SCS JV (Skanska Construction UK, Costain, Strabag)

    S2: Northolt tunnels – SCS JV (Skanska Construction UK, Costain, Strabag)

    Area Central

    C1: Chiltern tunnels and Colne Valley viaduct – Align JV (Bouygues Travaux Publics, VolkerFitzpatrick, Sir Robert McAlpine)

    C2: North Portal Chiltern tunnels to Brackley – CEK JV (Carillion Construction, Eiffage Génie Civil, Kier Infrastructure and Overseas)

    C3: Brackley to South Portal of Long Itchington Wood Green tunnel – CEK JV (Carillion Construction, Eiffage Génie Civil, Kier Infrastructure and Overseas)

    Area North

    N1: Long Itchington Wood Green tunnel to Delta Junction and Birmingham Spur – BBV JV (Balfour Beatty Group, Vinci Construction Grands Projets, Vinci Construction UK, Vinci Construction Terrassement)

    N2: Delta Junction to WCML Tie-In – BBV JV (Balfour Beatty Group, Vinci Construction Grands Projets, Vinci Construction UK, Vinci Construction Terrassement)

  9. #49

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Taxpayers owe private firms £199bn for PFI deals.

    The National Audit Office (NAO) found 716 public projects were active under PFI and its successor PF2, with annual costs amounting to £10.3bn in 2016/17. This was despite a lack of evidence to show they offered better value than public procurement, it said.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42724939

    What a mess.

  10. #50

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Auntie Andy View Post
    Taxpayers owe private firms £199bn for PFI deals.

    The National Audit Office (NAO) found 716 public projects were active under PFI and its successor PF2, with annual costs amounting to £10.3bn in 2016/17. This was despite a lack of evidence to show they offered better value than public procurement, it said.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42724939

    What a mess.
    Exactly - just listened to Radio5 where they had a 'political analyst' on there re PFI, started under John Major for some very small projects - ie under 50 million or so, Blair or rather Gordon Brown then exploded PFI and it went through the roof - without it seems so much of a thought re how it would be paid back - other than by some other Govt than there's.

    Osbourne also used PFI - his excuse being -they wanted to keep the ball rolling whilst we had the downturn (all the moneys gone etc).

    The problem with PFI - it seems - is the service contracts that go with it - which is where everyone seems to take a slice - £80 to change a light bulb costs etc. It's obvious this sort of thing needs to be scrapped, light bulb changing needs to be done by a school care taker or odd job man etc - that's if it is that simplistic ?

  11. #51

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    You have been doing an impeccable impersonation for a few months now.
    He doth protest too much

  12. #52

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Some of these aren't really a legacy so much as they are things these people will be remembered for. PFI debt for instance is a legacy, we still feel the effect of that 'brainwave' now. Powercuts, not so much.

    Thatchers legacy is for certain a tilting in the attitude of British people towards personal ownership. I wasn't around, I don't know what people were like before but lots of the major political changes during her tenure were based around personal ownership, which unfortunately has helped to make the kind of irresponsible greed we see these days completely acceptable in society.
    Thatcher created the me me me society or as it was suggested ...there is no such thing as society , only individuals !

    I remember the Thatcher years , mass unemployment , the slashing of public services , privatisation of everything that wasn't nailed down ........we had a far better rail , energy and phone system when it was under direct government control and , of course , a fairer housing system .......but the public fell for it hook , line and sinker and what we have now is a shocking transport system , crappy foriegn owned companies making billions out of utility services and a NHS that will one day be privatised , in all but name

    The youth of today are the future and they will blame us for propping up these capitalist governments ......and the fake socialist ones like Blair's ......tossers the lot of them

  13. #53

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    I spoke to my mate last night who works on the HS2 project for Carillion - all their jobs are safe - they continue working as normal. Depending on where they work they will be transferred over to those companies that will take on the Carillion work until the completion of the project - or if working on the services side - will continue working until the service contract ends.

    He thinks this is also the same situation for all public sector work. If you are a small contractor and Carillion owe you money - then the usual plans are in place re debt recovery etc.

    Sludge - I half agree with you, I remember the public sector in the 70's, the problem is - when you have just one group of public sector workers , as employees of the Govt - and with no competition for the work - and no penalty clauses for delivering late or sloppy work etc - then you get what we got - massive wage demands - strikes - secondary picketing - and a crap service all round - and with no alternative.

    Where I do agree with you is that we have utilities (Thames water for example) that never used to have any debt and was owned by the us. It is now foreign owned , wracked up a billion worth of debt, pays no tax, and does dodgy offshore deals to make sure it pays no tax.

    Neither the 70's model or the current model works. Far better to see a utility like Welsh Water perhaps - a not for profit setup - that can only spend within it's means - it should be run like a ltd company AND more importantly - all the customers who pay those bills - should be shareholders - so people have the power to control how / where the money is spend and rules on debt levels etc - thats my idea of how it should be run anyway.

  14. #54

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Public sector in the 70s! I think they are more professional now and strikes much less likely. After all they haven’t had an above inflation pay rise for goodness knows when, their terms and conditions and their pensions have been fecked over, and there still hasn’t been strike after strike. Mind the way the Tories have treated them I am surprised.

  15. #55

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Auntie Andy View Post
    Public sector in the 70s! I think they are more professional now and strikes much less likely. After all they haven’t had an above inflation pay rise for goodness knows when, their terms and conditions and their pensions have been fecked over, and there still hasn’t been strike after strike. Mind the way the Tories have treated them I am surprised.
    There are thousands of us where I work. Unison allowed the council to change our terms to mean that the first two days of sickness (of a period of absence) is unpaid.

    Obviously the lowest paid people can't 'work from home' so we are left without a days pay or having to use up annual leave.

    There hasn't been a strike. I don't think people understand the reality when they pump out this rhetoric.

  16. #56

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    There are thousands of us where I work. Unison allowed the council to change our terms to mean that the first two days of sickness (of a period of absence) is unpaid.

    Obviously the lowest paid people can't 'work from home' so we are left without a days pay or having to use up annual leave.

    There hasn't been a strike. I don't think people understand the reality when they pump out this rhetoric.
    Ive worked for the council Eric - we used to be told to take 2 sick weeks a year - as this would never be questioned - so everyone did.

    This directly leads to this - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...-cost-12916019
    Cardiff Council Staff Sick absenses - Staff sickness absences have cost Cardiff council £134m in less than a decade with tens of thousands of days lost to illness every year. This is the reason why policies like you mentioned were introduced.

    And this backs up what I said - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/lo...loyees-8160055 - the average employee at the Cardiff Council calls in sick for 10 days every year – a statistic branded “frightening” by councillors. FOI request data.

    So it's not rhetoric - it is a simple plain fact - as stated by the council themselves - why do you think Unison allowe dthe Council to do this where you work ?

    (This has nothing to do with why Carillion went bust by the way)

  17. #57

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Mambo View Post
    Ive worked for the council Eric - we used to be told to take 2 sick weeks a year - as this would never be questioned - so everyone did.

    This directly leads to this - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wa...-cost-12916019
    Cardiff Council Staff Sick absenses - Staff sickness absences have cost Cardiff council £134m in less than a decade with tens of thousands of days lost to illness every year. This is the reason why policies like you mentioned were introduced.

    And this backs up what I said - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/lo...loyees-8160055 - the average employee at the Cardiff Council calls in sick for 10 days every year – a statistic branded “frightening” by councillors. FOI request data.

    So it's not rhetoric - it is a simple plain fact - as stated by the council themselves - why do you think Unison allowe dthe Council to do this where you work?

    (This has nothing to do with why Carillion went bust by the way)
    No, the reason it was introduced was to cut costs. A fair thing to do if council employees are collectively taking too much time off. They realised that it is easier to **** everyone over than tackle the actual problem - the same old people taking their 4-6 months off every 2 years for something that is completely impossible to disprove (best one was 'whiplash' caused by pulling down the hand towel in the toilets when it was empty).

    From what I heard practically everyone who worked at the local branch of unison was booted out because of this episode. No other councils decided to go down this route afaik, I think recently Hillingdon floated it but it doesn't look likely to happen.

    (This has nothing to do with why Carillion went bust by the way)
    True but presumptuous insulting bollocks like this can't go unanswered unfortunately...

    I remember the public sector in the 70's, the problem is - when you have just one group of public sector workers , as employees of the Govt - and with no competition for the work - and no penalty clauses for delivering late or sloppy work etc - then you get what we got - massive wage demands - strikes - secondary picketing - and a crap service all round - and with no alternative.

  18. #58

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Is that 10 average the mean, median or mode?

  19. #59

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Is that 10 average the mean, median or mode?
    Why not read the article and you may find out for yourself - or just send an email and ask them directly yourself foi@cardiff.gov.uk

    Im sure you can understand this though -
    "Staff sickness absences have cost Cardiff council £134m in less than a decade with tens of thousands of days lost to illness every year.

    Figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act show the annual cost of staff sick days rose from £15.6m in 2007-8 to a high of £18.2m in 2012-13.

    Since then the numbers have been falling and in 2015-16 – the most recent data available – the cost was £10.4m.

    The highest number of days of sickness absence in a single year was in 2007-08, when 163,509 days were lost.

    Over the nine years from 2007-08 to 2015-16 a total of 1.22m days were lost at a total cost to taxpayers of exactly £134m."

    This has nothing to do re Carillion though - just gives you an idea of the mindset of a public sector workforce - that was in place when worked in the Council and looks like it is still there. It's not until such a mindset is got rid of that Govt building will ever come back into being the public sector again - in my opinion - and it seems the previous Labour and Conservative Govts feel the same way.

    Carillion it seems was the best halfway house - uk company being given uk building contracts - but even then it was fecked up by greed and mis management. If the Govt had given Carillion workers - people would be demanding british jobs for british workers in british companies, which is what happened - and now people are complaining that the Govt was awarding those contracts in the first place!!!!

  20. #60

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    correction :-

    Carillion it seems was the best halfway house - uk company being given uk building contracts - but even then it was fecked up by greed and mis management. If the Govt had NOT given Carillion the contracts - people would be demanding british jobs for british workers in british companies, which is what happened - and now people are complaining that the Govt was awarding those contracts in the first place!!!!

  21. #61

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Mambo View Post
    Why not read the article and you may find out for yourself - or just send an email and ask them directly yourself foi@cardiff.gov.uk

    Im sure you can understand this though -
    "Staff sickness absences have cost Cardiff council £134m in less than a decade with tens of thousands of days lost to illness every year.

    Figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act show the annual cost of staff sick days rose from £15.6m in 2007-8 to a high of £18.2m in 2012-13.

    Since then the numbers have been falling and in 2015-16 – the most recent data available – the cost was £10.4m.

    The highest number of days of sickness absence in a single year was in 2007-08, when 163,509 days were lost.

    Over the nine years from 2007-08 to 2015-16 a total of 1.22m days were lost at a total cost to taxpayers of exactly £134m."

    This has nothing to do re Carillion though - just gives you an idea of the mindset of a public sector workforce - that was in place when worked in the Council and looks like it is still there. It's not until such a mindset is got rid of that Govt building will ever come back into being the public sector again - in my opinion - and it seems the previous Labour and Conservative Govts feel the same way.

    Carillion it seems was the best halfway house - uk company being given uk building contracts - but even then it was fecked up by greed and mis management. If the Govt had given Carillion workers - people would be demanding british jobs for british workers in british companies, which is what happened - and now people are complaining that the Govt was awarding those contracts in the first place!!!!
    No it is gives me an idea of how you will use a statistic to support your argument without even knowing how it was calculated or what it means, which in my opinion makes it pretty tricky to take anything you type seriously.

    Also "Well, the 70's" is not a valid argument against introducing public sector involvement in industries where it isn't currently the status quo.

    Your bias has become clear and your desperation to be right even clearer, may I advise that you go to a hospital, go to your local social care department, go to the fire station or your local school. What I think you will find there is a load of people getting on with their jobs under difficult circumstances. Or maybe you are right and you will find a load of people outside on strike because that is just what public sector workers do!

  22. #62

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    No it is gives me an idea of how you will use a statistic to support your argument without even knowing how it was calculated or what it means, which in my opinion makes it pretty tricky to take anything you type seriously.

    Also "Well, the 70's" is not a valid argument against introducing public sector involvement in industries where it isn't currently the status quo.

    Your bias has become clear and your desperation to be right even clearer, may I advise that you go to a hospital, go to your local social care department, go to the fire station or your local school. What I think you will find there is a load of people getting on with their jobs under difficult circumstances. Or maybe you are right and you will find a load of people outside on strike because that is just what public sector workers do!
    I dont think youve been following the thread old chap, I was giving you my recollection of the 70's and life in the council, this was then backed by a FOI report - that showed you re the level of sickness at the council was sky high etc.
    This has changed over the years in the private sector - but it seems little has changed at the council.

    Eric at the end of the day it is merely my recollection of the facts as pertinent to me. Your bias (or rather your opinion as you would call it) maybe the truth as you see it.

    Did you say you work for a council ? - how long for ?

    ps - we all have difficult jobs, we all have bills to pay, and we all want value for money

    Have a great weekend - and dont worry about what I think.

  23. #63

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    I guess I need to make it big for you

    just gives you an idea of the mindset of a public sector workforce


    Do you see what is wrong with saying that? You based this on a few anecdotes from the 70's and some statistics you don't understand from one city council.

    It is insulting.

  24. #64

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I guess I need to make it big for you

    just gives you an idea of the mindset of a public sector workforce


    Do you see what is wrong with saying that? You based this on a few anecdotes from the 70's and some statistics you don't understand from one city council.

    It is insulting.
    wow #snowflake - you trigger so easily :-


    Employment type

    public sector workers (2.9% versus 1.7% for private sector workers)
    employees (2.1% versus 1.4% for self-employed)
    workers in organisations with 500 and over employees (2.5% versus 1.6% for organisations with fewer than 25 employees)
    workers in caring, leisure, other service, and elementary occupations (2.7% versus 1.1% for managers and professionals)
    part-time workers (2.6% versus 1.9% for full-time workers)


    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentand...ourmarket/2016

    Section 5

    Also maybe worth a read :-
    https://democratic.bridgend.gov.uk/d...A%20report.pdf

    Survey of 20 councils in Wales:-
    "Background
    Managing levels of sickness absence is important for every organisation
    because a healthy workforce is a productive workforce. Data shows that
    sickness absence rates are higher in the public sector than the private sector
    and there appear to be a number of factors which may be driving this,
    including differences in human resources policies, procedures, practices and
    cultures.
    2.2 The majority of local government employees in Wales are able to attend work
    regularly, but like all organisations councils have some sickness absence
    within their workforce. Over a number of years councils across Wales have
    been striving to reduce their rates of sickness absence and they have had
    some, albeit limited, success. In 2008-09 the average rate across Welsh local
    government was 11.5 days per Full Time Equivalent (FTE) employee and this
    fell to 9.9 in 2014-15. But in 2014-15 local government in Wales still lagged
    behind the private sector and the UK public sector rate which have 5.8 and
    8.7 days per FTE respectively"

    ps - we are supposed to be discussing Carillion (just saying)

  25. #65

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Mambo View Post
    wow #snowflake - you trigger so easily :-
    Ah I see the alt-right handbook you got for Christmas being put to good use.

    My first job was as a skivvy in HR - Adult Care Services and Children's Services (i.e. people who work directly with vulnerable and ill adults and children) dragged the average up significantly. Finance, HR etc. had very similar levels to the private sector average. It might come as a massive surprise but it isn't a fantastic idea to go to work with a cold if you work with and around vulnerable children and adults who might die from complications after catching it from you. Unless the figures are adjusted to take into account the different rigours and responsibilities of each job role/sector then it is actually flagrant to publish them without stating so, in my opinion.

    This feels a bit like shouting at a spider to get out of the bathtub, you don't really understand what you are posting so lets move back to Carillion.

    You confidently stated

    But no one is getting 'shafted' as you so eloquently put it
    Do you still believe this to be true?

    You also missed my post on the first page, choosing to reply to the one's around it instead. Maybe you could answer this time.

    I pay into a pension scheme, I imagine most on here do. I pay tax, I imagine most on here do. The tax I pay goes to pay for projects like HS2, my pension contributions may well also get invested in a company like this. So I am potentially part-funding the CEO's payrise twice. He drives off into the sunset with his bags of dosh after doing a shitty job and my pittance pension takes another hit.

    Does this really look like an example of a situation that doesn't affect the little people?

  26. #66

    Re: Carillion oh verge of collapse

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Ah I see the alt-right handbook you got for Christmas being put to good use.

    My first job was as a skivvy in HR - Adult Care Services and Children's Services (i.e. people who work directly with vulnerable and ill adults and children) dragged the average up significantly. Finance, HR etc. had very similar levels to the private sector average. It might come as a massive surprise but it isn't a fantastic idea to go to work with a cold if you work with and around vulnerable children and adults who might die from complications after catching it from you. Unless the figures are adjusted to take into account the different rigours and responsibilities of each job role/sector then it is actually flagrant to publish them without stating so, in my opinion.

    This feels a bit like shouting at a spider to get out of the bathtub, you don't really understand what you are posting so lets move back to Carillion.

    You confidently stated



    Do you still believe this to be true?

    You also missed my post on the first page, choosing to reply to the one's around it instead. Maybe you could answer this time.
    Im alt right - haha - that is the weirdest thing youve ever said - and that is a long list Eric.
    What are you thoughts on the ONS stats re their figures - and that it seems the public sector and councils in particular have an issue with being on the sick. I dont think your sickness levels - when compared to the whole country will skew the balance somehow. I say this Eric - as I used to work at the council - and (as said) we were all told to make sure you have 10 days sick per year. From the stats - that hasn't changed much - although Cardiff council now have measures in place to deal with it.

    Anyway - re people being shafted - Carillion employees working on public contracts (or in my case a friend on the HS2 project - are not being shafted - they are continuing to work and be paid, in due time they will transfer with the same pay to a new employer - ie one of the other main contractors that will take on the Carillion parts of the work.

    So - same job, same pay etc - I dont call that being shafted - in the circumstances.
    I have no idea what will happen to Carillion employees who are working on non public sector work. I would assume that these projects still need to be completed and there is a client who needs the work done - which is why Carillion went into compulsory liquidation rather than administration.

    The people who have been shafted are anyone who invested in equity in Carillion, private investors, pension funds etc - the share value is just about nil.
    The example of the business that was owed £800,000 by Carillion - Im sorry Eric - but that is gross stupidity on the part of that business. What type of business person allows a debt of 800k to accrue - before demanding payment. They should have smelt a rat a long time before, especially if Carillion were refusing to pay them. They should have down tools immediately and gone straight to court.
    So yes - I would feel desperately sorry for those employees - for having such a boss, and especially if they get laid off as a result. But that is business - businesses fail, debts are owed, and unfortunately if you are left being owed money, you have a big problem.

    Someone did me for 10 grand once, it was a limited company, had no assets, nothing I could do about it - he was an (ex) mate, who just disappeared and by the time I did some research - any money / assets were gone, everything else was in his wife's name. It still p'ss's me off to this day.

    Eric - if youre at all interested Ive just had a text from my mate on the HS2 project is taking redundancy - getting half a years salary, and thinks he can get a job working with another company on the HS2 within a month. If that comes off - he has a win win.

    Must get back to my diy jobs now - wiring in light fittings - deep joy.

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