The negativity on this board is ludicrous!

[chris lee]

You all talk like the change in performances from the start of the season is tactical changes from Management, that is rubbish. We have been forced to adapt our style due to the loss of influential players, Gunnarson did so much hard/dirty work that he allowed the forwards more freedom to play.
Zohore got Injured, was rushed back too early and has lost all confidence as a result,
NML downturn in form is not managements fault but his own.

Considering we do not have a budget to replace like for like for Zohore, Gunnars, NML start of the season value for these 3 would be 30-40mill.

He have been forced to bring in people that keep us competitive and keep us in the mix. (which we are doing)

If the ref had done his job Friday, we scored that goal just after Warnocks changes, kept the game tight 1-1, made a few tactical changes would have won 2-1, which I imagine would have been perfect execution of our game plan going into the game, against a team that have taken points off most of the big boys this season.

[Lawnmower]

I agree we haven’t got the players to play like Fulham. We got rid of our best passer last summer, and the best technical player at the club was shipped out as Warnock couldn’t get him to the fitness levels he demanded.

However, I think you’re doing the current players a disservice by suggesting they can do little more than treat the ball like hot potato.

We are where we are at the moment because of our terrific start to the season, where we were playing better football than we are now, so we do have some footballing ability in there somewhere.

Would just be nice to see a bit more of it,

That's pretty reasonable

[J R Hartley]

40m for Gunnarson, Zohore and NML?

Get real mate

[Bald Barry Bastad]

Like who ?

Damour isn't a good passer of the ball.

Polo mentions Bennett... maybe at a push

Manga.. he can pass but it's often more likely to cause us s problem
If you want a right back who can pass then play Richards

Bamba ? Now that is a desperate shout. He THINKS he can pass, but he can't. His passing is awful most of the time.

As soon as Damour replaced Patterson he introduced an element of control in midfield. There was more composure and it was why we played better in the final 20. Damour is a better passer of the ball then Patterson but more importantly he is a better midfielder who knows how to play in midfield.

If Warnock continues to favour 6 footers over players who can actually play in their position then we're going to have to get used to this..I actually think he is an incredibly negative manager who has little belief in technical players and relies heavily on big players to bully the opposition into defeat. Reminds me of the P E teacher in school who always chose the biggest lads over the ones with actual talent.

[dml1954]

I think a few of you are just expecting too much.

If you are unhappy now then God knows what you'd be like if we really were struggling.

We played some really good stuff at Leeds and for patches on Friday and at Sheff Weds.

We were also excellent against Sunderland.
To say 'ah yes but Sunderland are rubbish' is very disrespectful and seems a bit ignorant to me.

The side is made up mainly of cheap players and is a team mainly of battlers punching way above their weight. We've had a crippling injury list which has meant playing players out of position and some of our flair players losing form and fitness. I dare say we'd be a lot prettier if NML and Zohore were back to their early season levels.

Most fans just want a team who will give their all and we can't say we haven't got that.

I haven't seen a lot of sides in this league who play fast attractive football.. probably Brentford, Fulham and Wolves ..
2 of those sides have massive budgets we can only dream of and the 3rd seem to be a bit of a soft touch.

Nothing wrong with some constructive criticism, but some of the stuff I've read since our creditable point at Millwall just sounds like miserable old gits moaning for the sake of it.

We could always go back to aimless passing with Trollope and a relegation battle.

I honestly don't think people realise how difficult this league is. You only need to look at yesterday's results for the evidence. Even the likes of Sunderland, Bolton and Birmingham have a fair bit of quality in their squad.

To expect to pass our way through this division is frankly completely unrealistic.

I for one am just extremely grateful we are 2/3 of the way through the season and in with a shout.

I reckon at the end of it, even if we miss out we will look back and have a lot of fond memories from this campaign.

I can't wait for the next game

Totally agree with all this. The moaning gits on this board should get a dose of reality. If you want to get out of this division (or survive in the premier league), you have to fight/battle like crazy as a team and play any way necessary to get the points on the board. If you want to see free flowing, attractive football on the deck every week you should either go and watch a top eight premier league team or move abroad and watch Barcelona or Real Madrid. The usual culprits cant miss any opportunity to have a go at the team and manager and totally ignore all the good football we have played over the course of this season. In comparison to previous seasons I have seen plenty of good play and exciting moments from the team, to keep me happy. On our budget we are more than competing above our weight. Look at the bloody league table for gods sake. Oh and by the way, our average attendance is up from 16500 last season to 19100 this year with big games to come - hardly a negative is it but some people see it that way.

[J R Hartley]

Amicable discussion over, DML has arrived 🙄

[Tuerto]

In fairness Dan at times we DO play some good stuff.

First 15 and last 15 at Millwall, Long spells at Leeds, First 25-30 at Wednesday, 2nd half v Sunderland.

We just don't have the players available to reach the sort of levels some posters on here are expecting.

It may also be that Warnock was expecting Grujic to add some of this guile, but we've only seen the odd flash here and there off him.
Our current midfield just don't have the ability to get the ball down well enough under the sort of pressure teams like Millwall put us under

I beg to differ, Yes, we do play some tidy stuff at times, but overall, when we're under pressure, it can be dreadful in my opinion, and I don't think that it's down to the calibre of player(excluding Bamba and Mendez) I think it's down to Warnocks fear of holding onto the ball and taking the sting out of games. To me, that's a bit of an insult to the likes of ralls and Damour, who I think can be composed when in possession. Nobody is asking for Total football, just an element of composue and thought when things are building against us. As for Grujic, well, he looks like he's walked into a strip club when he was expecting a more serene and thoughtful surrounding, although I don't know who is to blame for that.

[joecity]

Enjoyed reading them. Some good posts. Like superior versions of Paul Abbadonato discussing football without using the word 'heck' once. Good stuff.

[dml1954]

As soon as Damour replaced Patterson he introduced an element of control in midfield. There was more composure and it was why we played better in the final 20. Damour is a better passer of the ball then Patterson but more importantly he is a better midfielder who knows how to play in midfield.

If Warnock continues to favour 6 footers over players who can actually play in their position then we're going to have to get used to this..I actually think he is an incredibly negative manager who has little belief in technical players and relies heavily on big players to bully the opposition into defeat. Reminds me of the P E teacher in school who always chose the biggest lads over the ones with actual talent.

Second paragraph of the above is rubbish. The first 3 months of the season we weren't negative or boring at all. If we tried to play tippy tappy passing football against teams like Millwall we would get kicked off the park. We have had to play the type of football we have over the last two months because of the loss of form we suffered and also because half the team were out injured. By criticising players like Patterson, you totally ignore the fact that he is a good footballer who can play in a number of positions and was the best player on the pitch for the Sunderland and Leeds games. He is filling a hole created by the loss of Gunnerson and Bryson. If you think that Madine is just a 6' battle ram you are totally mistaken - he can actually play and scores most of his goals on the deck. You see what you want to see I guess. PS. Damour didn't replace Patterson, it was NML - Patterson played the full 90 minutes and was instrumental in our strong finish.

[Bald Barry Bastad]

I beg to differ, Yes, we do play some tidy stuff at times, but overall, when we're under pressure, it can be dreadful in my opinion, and I don't think that it's down to the calibre of player(excluding Bamba and Mendez) I think it's down to Warnocks fear of holding onto the ball and taking the sting out of games. To me, that's a bit of an insult to the likes of ralls and Damour, who I think can be composed when in possession. Nobody is asking for Total football, just an element of composue and thought when things are building against us. As for Grujic, well, he looks like he's walked into a strip club when he was expecting a more serene and thoughtful surrounding, although I don't know who is to blame for that.

Totally agree with this. No one is expecting Man City but a team who are capable of stringing passes together like we did the first 5 games of the season rather than treating the ball like a hot potato. The lack of composure on the ball is embarrassing to be honest.

[Lawnmower]

As soon as Damour replaced Patterson he introduced an element of control in midfield. There was more composure and it was why we played better in the final 20. Damour is a better passer of the ball then Patterson but more importantly he is a better midfielder who knows how to play in midfield.

If Warnock continues to favour 6 footers over players who can actually play in their position then we're going to have to get used to this..I actually think he is an incredibly negative manager who has little belief in technical players and relies heavily on big players to bully the opposition into defeat. Reminds me of the P E teacher in school who always chose the biggest lads over the ones with actual talent.

First thing Damour did was run 30 yards with the ball into an area where he had no support and lost the ball.
😂

He was involved in every one of our 4 Christmas defeats .

He was pretty awful starting in the first 3 and then came on as a sub when Peltier got injured at QPR when we were 1-0 up !

Against Fulham we improved dramatically when Patterson came on for him - including Patterson scoring, something he is doing week after week, but Damour hasn't done at all !

Bolton away and Preston at home were 2 of our worst 4 performances this season and a hell of a lot worse than Millwall. Damour started both.


In fairness to the lad he works very hard and was probably not physically up to the amount of games he had to play, BUT if you think he's the answer to our 'problem ' of not passing the ball well you are in for a BIG disappointment.

He is handy to bring off the bench, but with the loaning of Tomlin to Forest we no longer have a playmaker. Best chance of improving the passing in midfield is Bryson coming back, but I think he's disappeared with Fred 😂

[Tuerto]

Totally agree with all this. The moaning gits on this board should get a dose of reality. If you want to get out of this division (or survive in the premier league), you have to fight/battle like crazy as a team and play any way necessary to get the points on the board. If you want to see free flowing, attractive football on the deck every week you should either go and watch a top eight premier league team or move abroad and watch Barcelona or Real Madrid. The usual culprits cant miss any opportunity to have a go at the team and manager and totally ignore all the good football we have played over the course of this season. In comparison to previous seasons I have seen plenty of good play and exciting moments from the team, to keep me happy. On our budget we are more than competing above our weight. Look at the bloody league table for gods sake. Oh and by the way, our average attendance is up from 16500 last season to 19100 this year with big games to come - hardly a negative is it but some people see it that way.

Why do you have to go to extremes to prove your point-'Free flowing Football' 'Go and watch a top eight prem side' or 'Real Madrid' 'Barcelona' sounds to me like you struggle to get your point across. I went to the Harvester once, and complained that the chicken was tough and tasteless, the manager didn't tell me to '****off' and go and eat at the ritz if I wanted chicken that was edible. All I want is a bit of balance at times, that's all. This debate has been a good one, no back handed insults or over extenuated outrage-please don't spoil it.

[thehumblegringo]

I would really hope that we haven't as a fan base turned into one that only accepts tippy tapping and from the ones I know and that goes into the hundreds I would not say that was the case.

As for changing it, you pretty much said it yourself. We haven't got the personnel to do so.

By the way Trollope's football was not only inaffective, it was shit. Most boring rubbish I have ever seen and I'd say the low crowds were more to do with the 2-3 years of garbage under Trollope, Slade and Ole than the last 12 months of direct but entertaining football from Warnock. Hence the increase of many thousands on what it was with the others

Despite what DML thinks I'm not too hard to please when it comes to watching Cardiff City or I still wouldn't be spending my time or money still watching.
I agree that Trollope's football was tepid and boring, however I will say that to establish that style requires more patience before it flows properly.

I do think the players at our disposal stop us playing football like Man City but I do think we are more than capable of keeping the ball for more than two or three passes.

We are completely bypassing the midfield at present and people are jumping on Grujic back but I don't see what he can do when he shows for the ball and it's just blasted straight over his head.

My main fear is that the budget was obviously stretched in January to gamble on promotion amd most people as is highlighted by this very thread believe that we are very lightweight and undermanned in the middle of the park, and Warnock didn't address that.

The arguments about Tomlin have been done to death but Warnock got rid of our only bit of creativity besides Hoilett in for a straight swap with another battler whose sell by date looks as if it could be passed.

If we do somehow get promotion then he football we seeing now would be tactically inept in my opinion.

However I don't think we'll get promotion but then that begs the question considering our academy has players like Spence about to knock on the door, where will he fit into this, having played a football that has been built on pass and move for 10 years?

[Lawnmower]

Totally agree with this. No one is expecting Man City but a team who are capable of stringing passes together like we did the first 5 games of the season rather than treating the ball like a hot potato. The lack of composure on the ball is embarrassing to be honest.

Not easy though. At Millwall they were swarming us. No surprise we took control in the end when Millwall were out on their feet. And our best player in that last 10-15 minutes imho was Patterson. What an engine that lad has.

[J R Hartley]

Totally agree with this. No one is expecting Man City but a team who are capable of stringing passes together like we did the first 5 games of the season rather than treating the ball like a hot potato. The lack of composure on the ball is embarrassing to be honest.

This ^^^^

[Bald Barry Bastad]

Second paragraph of the above is rubbish. The first 3 months of the season we weren't negative or boring at all. If we tried to play tippy tappy passing football against teams like Millwall we would get kicked off the park. We have had to play the type of football we have over the last two months because of the loss of form we suffered and also because half the team were out injured. By criticising players like Patterson, you totally ignore the fact that he is a good footballer who can play in a number of positions and was the best player on the pitch for the Sunderland and Leeds games. He is filling a hole created by the loss of Gunnerson and Bryson. If you think that Madine is just a 6' battle ram you are totally mistaken - he can actually play and scores most of his goals on the deck. You see what you want to see I guess.

I didn't say anything against Madine. Patterson is a good player but he is not a good midfielder and one good game against Sunderland does not make him one. He's a full back and for me the best one we have at the club. The fact Warnock continually picks the likes of Patterson, Bamba in midfield when we did have midfield players available speaks volumes of the managers mindset. He wants physicality over technique and as long as we're doing well who am I to argue but my god its getting increasingly turgid with every game.

[thehumblegringo]

As soon as Damour replaced Patterson he introduced an element of control in midfield. There was more composure and it was why we played better in the final 20. Damour is a better passer of the ball then Patterson but more importantly he is a better midfielder who knows how to play in midfield.

If Warnock continues to favour 6 footers over players who can actually play in their position then we're going to have to get used to this..I actually think he is an incredibly negative manager who has little belief in technical players and relies heavily on big players to bully the opposition into defeat. Reminds me of the P E teacher in school who always chose the biggest lads over the ones with actual talent.

That's the crux of the matter for me. There doesn't seem to be any respect for technical ability but the thought process seems to be, is he big? Is he fast? Ok let's gets him on board!

[Lawnmower]

Despite what DML thinks I'm not too hard to please when it comes to watching Cardiff City or I still wouldn't be spending my time or money still watching.
I agree that Trollope's football was tepid and boring, however I will say that to establish that style requires more patience before it flows properly.

I do think the players at our disposal stop us playing football like Man City but I do think we are more than capable of keeping the ball for more than two or three passes.

We are completely bypassing the midfield at present and people are jumping on Grujic back but I don't see what he can do when he shows for the ball and it's just blasted straight over his head.

My main fear is that the budget was obviously stretched in January to gamble on promotion amd most people as is highlighted by this very thread believe that we are very lightweight and undermanned in the middle of the park, and Warnock didn't address that.

The arguments about Tomlin have been done to death but Warnock got rid of our only bit of creativity besides Hoilett in for a straight swap with another battler whose sell by date looks as if it could be passed.

If we do somehow get promotion then he football we seeing now would be tactically inept in my opinion.

However I don't think we'll get promotion but then that begs the question considering our academy has players like Spence about to knock on the door, where will he fit into this, having played a football that has been built on pass and move for 10 years?

Most of the criticism of Grujic is down to him losing the ball too much.

I'm hopeful this will improve or he'll be dropped , maybe for Bryson.

Either way, it should lead to an improvement in our passing.

As for worrying about next season.. let's see what this one brings first.

[J R Hartley]

I think Grujic gets caught in possession because he’s looking to play and he’s got no one available to take the pass off him.

[Lawnmower]

I didn't say anything against Madine. Patterson is a good player but he is not a good midfielder and one good game against Sunderland does not make him one. He's a full back and for me the best one we have at the club. The fact Warnock continually picks the likes of Patterson, Bamba in midfield when we did have midfield players available speaks volumes of the managers mindset. He wants physicality over technique and as long as we're doing well who am I to argue but my god its getting increasingly turgid with every game.

It's not just one good game v Sunderland though.

His performance at Leeds was outstanding- he had the highest 'who scored' rating I've ever seen from a City player, he scores goals and creates chances. His goals/ assists per minute are fantastic.

Also I don't see WHO else we can play in there until Gunnar and Bryson are fit- unless we go 4-4-2 but then where does that leave Hoillet and Wildshut ?

As I said and backed up earlier Damour isn't really the answer.

[Lawnmower]

I think Grujic gets caught in possession because he’s looking to play and he’s got no one available to take the pass off him.

Maybe, but he looks clumsy and awkward when doing so.

[dml1954]

I didn't say anything against Madine. Patterson is a good player but he is not a good midfielder and one good game against Sunderland does not make him one. He's a full back and for me the best one we have at the club. The fact Warnock continually picks the likes of Patterson, Bamba in midfield when we did have midfield players available speaks volumes of the managers mindset. He wants physicality over technique and as long as we're doing well who am I to argue but my god its getting increasingly turgid with every game.

Dont think you saw the end of my previous post, which I added on. Patterson replaced NML, not Damour, at Millwall and Patterson was on the pitch for the full 90 minutes and instrumental in our strong finish. Damours contribution was not therefore the reason why we finished strongly. Patterson has scored a number of important goals recently. I believe you are seriously under estimating his ability and contribution for some reason.

[thehumblegringo]

Most of the criticism of Grujic is down to him losing the ball too much.

I'm hopeful this will improve or he'll be dropped , maybe for Bryson.

Either way, it should lead to an improvement in our passing.

As for worrying about next season.. let's see what this one brings first.

Grujic is highly rated at Liverpool and there has gotta be a reason why he's struggling to adapt.

This could be because he's just struggling to adapt to the pace and the 'hurly burly' of the championship, but it could also be because at Liverpool he's accustomed to players showing for the ball and expecting to receive it not expecting him to just hit the channels.

One thing I don't get is that if Warnock wanted an all action midfielder who can adopt to our style then why did he sign a kid who is obviously far more familiar with something entirely different

[J R Hartley]

Maybe, but he looks clumsy and awkward when doing so.

I don’t think he looks clumsy, or awkward, if anything he looks too composed as he’s used to having more time on the ball than what he’s gping through get in the championship, especially away at Millwall.

However I do think it would help if he had similair players on his wavelength rather than just waiting for the ball to be hooked on and helped forward.

I fear this is another boob from Warnock, much like Tomlin, where he doesn’t fit into his style.

[dml1954]

Amicable discussion over, DML has arrived 🙄

Ah - the old 'blame dml to cover up my own argumentative posts' ploy. Clever.