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Thread: Category 1 Academy

  1. #26

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy the Jock View Post
    Brentford have scrapped their academy .After reading this article I find it hard to argue with their decision.
    Huddersfield have also scrapped their under 16 football, once again makes complete sense to me. I love to see home grown talent coming through, can’t remember the last youngster who made any real impact at Cardiff.

    https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/f...closed-scouts/
    With apologies to my friend Richard Holt if I got this wrong in some way, but it doesn't really matter much because it is the message of what his question conveys which is important here rather than the precise details involved.

    Around two or three years ago, Richard asked on here "it only happened twice last season (from memory, he was talking about 2014/15), but throughout the whole of the twentieth century, there were only six times when it didn't happen - what am I talking about?". The answer was City played a game with at least one Welshman in their squad.

    Throughout most of our history, we have had teams with a strong nucleus of home grown players - there have been plenty of times when we've had worse teams than the one we have now, but there have also been times when we've had better and more successful sides than the current one which had plenty of Welsh representation.

    The irony is that it's almost certainly true to say that the degree of Welsh representation is in inverse proportion to the amount of money, in relative terms, being spent to try and ensure a Welsh presence in the team!

    Therefore, there is a strong argument to say that the Academy system at Cardiff City has been a failure since it started in 2004.

    However, I think on more of an emotional level than a financial one on these sort of things, while also recognising that, in essence, our "natural" level when relying far more on local talent than we do now was the old Second Division and it's been the Championship since we became a non Welsh club in terms of first team selection.

    I just think that the club's heart (in terms of the people with real influence at least) has not been in providing the best system possible for Academy scholars to break through in recent years, so while it can be claimed that the system hasn't worked, it can also be said that it hasn't been given a fair chance to work either.

  2. #27

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy the Jock View Post
    Brentford have scrapped their academy .After reading this article I find it hard to argue with their decision.
    Huddersfield have also scrapped their under 16 football, once again makes complete sense to me. I love to see home grown talent coming through, can’t remember the last youngster who made any real impact at Cardiff.

    https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/f...closed-scouts/
    That’s the other approach I guess and might make more sense at many levels. However, it prevents young local kids from aspiring to play for Cardiff and I think over time would end up diminishing the club

  3. #28

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    With apologies to my friend Richard Holt if I got this wrong in some way, but it doesn't really matter much because it is the message of what his question conveys which is important here rather than the precise details involved.

    Around two or three years ago, Richard asked on here "it only happened twice last season (from memory, he was talking about 2014/15), but throughout the whole of the twentieth century, there were only six times when it didn't happen - what am I talking about?". The answer was City played a game with at least one Welshman in their squad.

    Throughout most of our history, we have had teams with a strong nucleus of home grown players - there have been plenty of times when we've had worse teams than the one we have now, but there have also been times when we've had better and more successful sides than the current one which had plenty of Welsh representation.

    The irony is that it's almost certainly true to say that the degree of Welsh representation is in inverse proportion to the amount of money, in relative terms, being spent to try and ensure a Welsh presence in the team!

    Therefore, there is a strong argument to say that the Academy system at Cardiff City has been a failure since it started in 2004.

    However, I think on more of an emotional level than a financial one on these sort of things, while also recognising that, in essence, our "natural" level when relying far more on local talent than we do now was the old Second Division and it's been the Championship since we became a non Welsh club in terms of first team selection.

    I just think that the club's heart (in terms of the people with real influence at least) has not been in providing the best system possible for Academy scholars to break through in recent years, so while it can be claimed that the system hasn't worked, it can also be said that it hasn't been given a fair chance to work either.
    I don't want to keep repeating myself on this but I think it's a wider problem. As far as I can tell we're recruiting plenty of local talent of all ages, probably in greater numbers than at any time, but it keeps turning out that they're not good enough to play at our level. The table says that if one win had been a draw this season we'd have missed out on automatic promotion, Warnock didn't have a lot of room to gamble on a couple of local lads. It's the reality of it, do you think we'd have sold over 20,000 season tickets for next season if we'd missed out on promotion but Warnock had said 'don't worry, I'm going to play Coxe, Veale and Harris next season'?

    I'm not pretending there aren't problems at youth level but I'm not aware of any great local talent slipping the net and none of the players we've released have played at a higher level than us yet so it's hard to say for definite that the club is doing anything wrong. We can't expect the coaching staff to turn water into wine, maybe we should be asking why the area as a whole is producing so little genuine talent. Is enough being done by schools and local authorities to encourage kids to take up football or is rugby taking the sporty ones? I've no idea. For the catchment area we've got I'd expect more local lads to be making it here but I don't think the club is entirely to blame for that.

  4. #29

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    It seems if players aren't good enough, it's the clubs fault.

    I just think it's more the reality that some look great when playing against peers, aren't good enough when it comes to playing at first team level. We don't owe kids anything after all - "have a good contract, after all you're local".

    DVP games aren't going to help; for the most part it's against kids your own age. The old reserve league system was better for getting kids experience, but the FA decided their way was far better...

  5. #30

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    loramski there are far more youngsters in south wales playing football than rugby than ever before so that blows that argument out of the window . the simple fact is the standard of players at the top level are much higher than ever before and can be seen by not only our club very few academy players make the grade these days . i do sometimes wonder if there is any point in these academy systems at all in the uk in terms of value for money .

  6. #31

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    More youngsters playing doesn't mean there are more better players playing.

    Agree on your point about the standard increasing - equally, given teams are able to field lineups of purely foreign players I'd rather have a semblance of protectionism within the British game. The old limit on foreign players was a good one.

  7. #32

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    I don't think clubs should be able to sign players until they're around 13. Clubs are signing (unofficially) kids as young as five (Cardiff have done it with one of my teacher's kids), its a joke

  8. #33

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Loramski View Post
    I don't want to keep repeating myself on this but I think it's a wider problem. As far as I can tell we're recruiting plenty of local talent of all ages, probably in greater numbers than at any time, but it keeps turning out that they're not good enough to play at our level. The table says that if one win had been a draw this season we'd have missed out on automatic promotion, Warnock didn't have a lot of room to gamble on a couple of local lads. It's the reality of it, do you think we'd have sold over 20,000 season tickets for next season if we'd missed out on promotion but Warnock had said 'don't worry, I'm going to play Coxe, Veale and Harris next season'?

    I'm not pretending there aren't problems at youth level but I'm not aware of any great local talent slipping the net and none of the players we've released have played at a higher level than us yet so it's hard to say for definite that the club is doing anything wrong. We can't expect the coaching staff to turn water into wine, maybe we should be asking why the area as a whole is producing so little genuine talent. Is enough being done by schools and local authorities to encourage kids to take up football or is rugby taking the sporty ones? I've no idea. For the catchment area we've got I'd expect more local lads to be making it here but I don't think the club is entirely to blame for that.
    Within that lot you've captured something which sums up the attitude to picking young players these days - "Warnock didn't have a lot of room to gamble on a couple of local lads". Our manager said back in August that he didn't think this was the right season to be looking at youngsters, but then when would be a good time to give a teenager a debut, when we're in a relegation struggle?

    Seems there is always an excuse these days as to why it not's the time to look at a youngster when there's a gap in the first eleven. To be fair to Neil Warnock, he did recognise that the opportunity was there to give a couple of young players a league debut at the back end of last season, but that's the first time I can remember it happening since Ole gave Tom James and Rhys Healey some game time in the dead rubber against Chelsea four years ago.

    You are coming at it from the point of view that the youngsters cannot be good enough because they would bound to be picked if they were - is that really true though? Ten years ago, Aaron Ramsey had just played in an FA Cup Final before he was eighteen and he had been a lot nearer his sixteenth birthday than his seventeenth when making his first appearance for the senior side a year earlier.

    Do you think that Ramsey would have played any first team football at that age if he was coming through now? I've got no way of proving this of course, but I'm convinced he wouldn't have - I repeat something I've said a couple of times on here in recent months, it's lazy just to say the youngsters aren't good enough full stop, the goalposts have moved in recent years in a way which has done them no favours at all.

  9. #34

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    What youngsters would have filled gaps in the first eleven given we've got decent squad depth already?

    Aaron Ramsey was always a special talent. It's silly to think Warnock wouldn't have picked him purely because of his age, no manager would want to keep talent out of the team unless there were off field / training ground issues.

    It's not lazy to say the youngsters aren't good enough. It's a fact given the destinations the overwhelming majority end up at, mostly non-league / Welsh league / out of football.

    The fact is, it's not just talent. It's also a case of asking if the player is better than what is already in the squad. Any young central defender would have problems now due to us being stacked in that position - it's not a case of them being good enough, it's a case of them having to be excellent to beat out the quality we already have.

  10. #35

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by ccfc_is_my_life View Post
    What youngsters would have filled gaps in the first eleven given we've got decent squad depth already?

    Aaron Ramsey was always a special talent. It's silly to think Warnock wouldn't have picked him purely because of his age, no manager would want to keep talent out of the team unless there were off field / training ground issues.

    It's not lazy to say the youngsters aren't good enough. It's a fact given the destinations the overwhelming majority end up at, mostly non-league / Welsh league / out of football.

    The fact is, it's not just talent. It's also a case of asking if the player is better than what is already in the squad. Any young central defender would have problems now due to us being stacked in that position - it's not a case of them being good enough, it's a case of them having to be excellent to beat out the quality we already have.
    I think, given the type of player Ramsey was at seventeen and the type of game Neil Warnock got us playing this season, that our manager would have been very reluctant to turn to him.

    It is lazy to think that if someone didn't end up playing at a certain level, they were definitely not good enough - there are all sorts of things (e.g. a manager who rated you leaving the club and being replaced by someone like Russell Slade for example, as was the case with Tom James) which can influence someone's career.

    Rabbi Matondo was mentioned earlier in this thread. Although he seems to be doing well at Man City, there is an element of risk in signing for such a high profile club because of the competition he will encounter when trying to break into the first team - say he doesn't quite manage to do it, is released and, disillusioned, decides to walk away from the game, your response would be a simple "he wasn't good enough"?

  11. #36

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    I’d make national associations in charge of player development until 16. No clubs involved at all.

    Then a USA draft type system of recruitment. 👍

    The academy system has completely failed- doesn’t work for clubs and most importantly doesn’t work for the thousands of children who are treated so poorly by it year on year. Restricted from playing with mates, stopped from playing other sports etc.... and for what? For nothing really. Im convinced better, more creative anyway, players would be produced if the clubs were kept well away- get rid of them.

  12. #37

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Father Dougal View Post
    I’d make national associations in charge of player development until 16. No clubs involved at all.

    Then a USA draft type system of recruitment. ��
    I like that idea, but it would never happen here - the Premier League and it's clubs are too powerful.

  13. #38

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    I disagree about Ramsey - the talent he has Warnock would find a way to incorporate him. It's doing both Warnock and Rambo an injustice to think otherwise imo. The closest equivalent to Rambo in our squad last year would have been Grujic; Rambo far more talent at 17.

    Of course there are plenty of influences on a career. A lot of that is down to the player - some sulk at not making it at a club, others have the desire to prove the point they shouldn't have been released. It can go either way. I've also pointed out it's not always about talent - if stacked at a position you have to be excellent not just good.

    The fact is, like it or not, the overwhelming majority of players released by Cardiff from the Academy system fall into the WPL/non-league/out of football category. It's equally lazy to believe that implies our system isn't good enough, manager doesn't rate them etc. There's a massive difference between somebody looking good enough against peers / lesser players and translating ability to the levels we're at.

    I went to same school as Damon Searle. There were other kids who had all the tricks etc. You'd think they had more skill - Damon was the one who applied his ability and made a living out of it.

    If Matondo walked away from football, then he'd be a blithering idiot and yes, not good enough - from a mental perspective. Now, if he doesn't make it at Man City - and let's be honest, I'd be amazed if he made it there due to the money they have to spend on better, more experienced players - then he's not good enough for elite level football at Man City.

    If a youngster or more accurately their parents are swayed by the snake oil and nice benefits offered by a Prem club like Man City, there's always the risk a player believes they've made it rather than just being a small cog in a big wheel - look at Ramon Calliste as an example. Chased the big Prem club experience, bombed out.

    People just need to accept that the vast majority of youth players will never make it; sure some might look good in youth games but there will always be better players released by Prem clubs as well. As Cat 2, we're very much picking from a lower pool of players than Cat 1 clubs.

  14. #39

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Father Dougal View Post
    I’d make national associations in charge of player development until 16. No clubs involved at all.

    Then a USA draft type system of recruitment. ��

    The academy system has completely failed- doesn’t work for clubs and most importantly doesn’t work for the thousands of children who are treated so poorly by it year on year. Restricted from playing with mates, stopped from playing other sports etc.... and for what? For nothing really. Im convinced better, more creative anyway, players would be produced if the clubs were kept well away- get rid of them.
    FAW in charge of player development. That's like wanting Harold Shipman as club doctor.

    The draft system wouldn't work at all. North American sports can do it as there's a finite number of franchises, well established feeder systems into the pro leagues.

    There's no problem with the clubs safeguarding players from school matches with mates. Club coaches say one thing, bitter PE teacher who failed at his dream of egg chasing undermining that coaching... risk of serious injury in games, in other sports... clubs are making investments in youths in the hopes they can achieve their potential. Cubs are obviously wanting the chance of reaching that potential maximised.

  15. #40

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Loramski View Post
    Not sure how the official productivity figures would work (does Regan Poole count as ours, Newport's or Man Utd's?) but Gunter, Ramsey, Ralls, Jon Meades, Aaron Holloway, Aaron Wildig, Joe Jacobson, Ben Nugent, Deji Oshilaja, David Tutonda, Wes Burns, David Richards, Rollin Menayese, Ashley Baker and Josh Magennis were all with us at some point before they turned 18 and played league football this season. Declan John too, of course.
    What happened to Regan Poole ?

  16. #41

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by billy.ronson View Post
    What happened to Regan Poole ?
    Ended up at Man Yoo, highly touted as the next great center back by media, loaned out to Northampton where he played midfield ( when picked ), as Man Yoo want to convert him to a different position.

  17. #42

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Within that lot you've captured something which sums up the attitude to picking young players these days - "Warnock didn't have a lot of room to gamble on a couple of local lads". Our manager said back in August that he didn't think this was the right season to be looking at youngsters, but then when would be a good time to give a teenager a debut, when we're in a relegation struggle?

    Seems there is always an excuse these days as to why it not's the time to look at a youngster when there's a gap in the first eleven. To be fair to Neil Warnock, he did recognise that the opportunity was there to give a couple of young players a league debut at the back end of last season, but that's the first time I can remember it happening since Ole gave Tom James and Rhys Healey some game time in the dead rubber against Chelsea four years ago.

    You are coming at it from the point of view that the youngsters cannot be good enough because they would bound to be picked if they were - is that really true though? Ten years ago, Aaron Ramsey had just played in an FA Cup Final before he was eighteen and he had been a lot nearer his sixteenth birthday than his seventeenth when making his first appearance for the senior side a year earlier.

    Do you think that Ramsey would have played any first team football at that age if he was coming through now? I've got no way of proving this of course, but I'm convinced he wouldn't have - I repeat something I've said a couple of times on here in recent months, it's lazy just to say the youngsters aren't good enough full stop, the goalposts have moved in recent years in a way which has done them no favours at all.
    I'm assuming that our youngsters were available to go out on loan this season; Meite went to Crawley, Byrne to Chorley, Duffus to Hereford and, as far as I can remember, that's it. If no one else, even at non-league level, wanted to take a chance on our DVP lads then it's hardly surprising that Warnock didn't want to gamble on them in a Championship promotion race. He didn't even trust Healey or Harris by the end, it's a bit sad but if you want to tell Warnock he stuffed up then be my guest.

    I agree that the kind of football Warnock plays isn't encouraging for the youngsters we have but he gave Bostock his debut for Palace at the age of 15 and I can't think of a reason why he wouldn't give a youngster a game here if he thought they were good enough. I'm sure Tan wants to know why the money that goes into the youth system is producing so little, I'd expect that everyone from him down would love to see local lads coming through to the first team for a number of reasons. Why would the club's heart not be in that as you suggested earlier?

    It'll certainly be in Warnock's interests to have a couple of under-21s pushing for the first team next season to give some options on top of our 25 man squad. I assume that's what the endless trials have been about at DVP level and they have been another indication that Warnock has little faith in the youngsters that the club are producing, in the short term at least.

  18. #43

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    I'd much rather we spent some of the Prem money on gaining Category 1 Academy Status so we could acquire and retain younger high quality players. The size and location of the Club means that our best long-term survival bet is likely to be as a team that provides opportunities for good young players to play in the first team that they wouldn't get in the bigger Clubs.

    I think this would also appeal to the average Cardiff supporter who has long favoured home-grown players to expensive imports.
    this is a no brainer,as we cannot compete in the transfer market ,so get the best seet up going and bellers will provide.

  19. #44
    Blue in the Face
    Guest

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Have to say, this thread is quite incoherent.

    Bringing up Ramsey as a point against investing on category 1 just doesn't make sense. If Ramsey was a 16 / 17 year old with us now, he would never have played for Warnock whether he would be selected or not. Arsenal would have poached him for a tribunal fee which would have been a hell of a lot less that the terrible fee we got for him anyway. Rambo left the club at the first opportunity he had. The rules in place in regard to poaching were different when we had him. Bringing up Ramsey in the context of the OP can only logically be an argument for investing surely?

  20. #45

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Still staggered at the way Adam Matthews' career turned out.

  21. #46
    Blue in the Face
    Guest

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Someone also made the valid point that you can't turn water into wine. This is definitely true in regard to player potential. But you can also turn wine into vinegar! If the set up isn't right, players can also stagnate.

    We have a unique selling point and catchment area as the number one club in Wales. So let's capitalise on it!

  22. #47

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue in the Face View Post
    Someone also made the valid point that you can't turn water into wine. This is definitely true in regard to player potential. But you can also turn wine into vinegar! If the set up isn't right, players can also stagnate.

    We have a unique selling point and catchment area as the number one club in Wales. So let's capitalise on it!
    Hmm, number one club in Wales or top Prem team offering house, parents a job, guaranteed pro contract and as Liverpool, not averse to tapping players up.

    Too many youths, parents see Prem team interest, kerching, see the pound signs.

    We can't combat that.

  23. #48

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by Loramski View Post
    I'm not pretending there aren't problems at youth level but I'm not aware of any great local talent slipping the net and none of the players we've released have played at a higher level than us yet so it's hard to say for definite that the club is doing anything wrong. We can't expect the coaching staff to turn water into wine, maybe we should be asking why the area as a whole is producing so little genuine talent. Is enough being done by schools and local authorities to encourage kids to take up football or is rugby taking the sporty ones? I've no idea. For the catchment area we've got I'd expect more local lads to be making it here but I don't think the club is entirely to blame for that.
    When you talk about the schools and local authorities failing I don't think you realise how much time these children spend in the academy.
    You are talking about 3 or 4 days a week for even 7 or 8 year olds.
    After the age of 8 kids are stopped playing boys club football and they are only allowed to play for the club or their school.

    Another point that you are dismissing when you talk about coaches turning water into wine is the club's record at the younger ages.

    I know the u11s have beaten Arsenal (who pay their players up to £1500 a month) 10-1 and beat Liverpool 10-2 in the last couple of months.

    These are not isolated cases as the kids tend to do this across the board at young ages.

    I'm not saying we can read a great deal into these sorts of things at these ages but it definitely suggests to me that the raw talent is there but somewhere along the line it's going wrong.

    I know Cardiff have tried to combat this by changing their philosophy to a more European system where it's more tactically based and moving the ball quickly has become paramount.

    There are pros and cons with this as far as I can see. It's a good basis for youngsters learning the game as a whole and with our catchment area predominantly being of smaller less athletic kids this will help them long term to combat playing against bigger, faster players.
    The cons of this is that sometimes kids are often robbed of self expression and imagination and it can be robotic and kids quickly lose their love for the game before they've even begun.

    When I look at Sion Spence this season I personally feel that he has been mismanaged. Bellamy said the other night on the debate that if a lad is 17/18 in a championship club and he's not playing first team football then he's at the wrong club!

    Well Spence was knocking on the door this time last year and this season he hardly even played u23 football.

  24. #49

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    When you talk about the schools and local authorities failing I don't think you realise how much time these children spend in the academy.
    You are talking about 3 or 4 days a week for even 7 or 8 year olds.
    After the age of 8 kids are stopped playing boys club football and they are only allowed to play for the club or their school.

    Another point that you are dismissing when you talk about coaches turning water into wine is the club's record at the younger ages.

    I know the u11s have beaten Arsenal (who pay their players up to £1500 a month) 10-1 and beat Liverpool 10-2 in the last couple of months.

    These are not isolated cases as the kids tend to do this across the board at young ages.

    I'm not saying we can read a great deal into these sorts of things at these ages but it definitely suggests to me that the raw talent is there but somewhere along the line it's going wrong.

    I know Cardiff have tried to combat this by changing their philosophy to a more European system where it's more tactically based and moving the ball quickly has become paramount.

    There are pros and cons with this as far as I can see. It's a good basis for youngsters learning the game as a whole and with our catchment area predominantly being of smaller less athletic kids this will help them long term to combat playing against bigger, faster players.
    The cons of this is that sometimes kids are often robbed of self expression and imagination and it can be robotic and kids quickly lose their love for the game before they've even begun.

    When I look at Sion Spence this season I personally feel that he has been mismanaged. Bellamy said the other night on the debate that if a lad is 17/18 in a championship club and he's not playing first team football then he's at the wrong club!

    Well Spence was knocking on the door this time last year and this season he hardly even played u23 football.
    Hasn't Bellamy held Spence back from the DVP team?

  25. #50

    Re: Category 1 Academy

    Quote Originally Posted by City123 View Post
    Hasn't Bellamy held Spence back from the DVP team?
    I'm not sure what the dynamic is but something seems amiss

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