Category 1 Academy

[ccfc_is_my_life]

I'm not sure what the dynamic is but something seems amiss

I'd have said it was entirely sensible by the club.

Warnock wants better players in the DVP, this season has been more or less written off - Prem castoffs better than what we had. Rather than put Spence into a chaotic scenario, keep him under Bellamy's control for a season of consistency.

[thehumblegringo]

I'd have said it was entirely sensible by the club.

Warnock wants better players in the DVP, this season has been more or less written off - Prem castoffs better than what we had. Rather than put Spence into a chaotic scenario, keep him under Bellamy's control for a season of consistency.

He was playing u23 football for a large part of the season before so whatever way we look at it his career took a backwards step this season playing against weaker opposition.

The step from u23 football to first team football is huge but the step from category 2 u18s football to first team football is an absolute chasm.

Sion needs to get out on loan asap to save his career cos there's no way he's gonna make the jump from our 18s to premier league football.

[ccfc_is_my_life]

He was playing u23 football for a large part of the season before so whatever way we look at it his career took a backwards step this season playing against weaker opposition.

The step from u23 football to first team football is huge but the step from category 2 u18s football to first team football is an absolute chasm.

Sion needs to get out on loan asap to save his career cos there's no way he's gonna make the jump from our 18s to premier league football.

And again, we got rid of virtually all those in the DVP last summer. The DVP was an absolute mess, putting him in there would have been silly.

He's played well under Bellamy, had the experience of being the "older head" in that age group.

Who is to say he won't feature in the DVP this coming season as things stabilise?

As for going out on loan... you need someone to want to loan him.

[thehumblegringo]

And again, we got rid of virtually all those in the DVP last summer. The DVP was an absolute mess, putting him in there would have been silly.

He's played well under Bellamy, had the experience of being the "older head" in that age group.

Who is to say he won't feature in the DVP this coming season as things stabilise?

As for going out on loan... you need someone to want to loan him.

Look, I know what you're saying but it doesn't change the fact that he has lost a year of his development because of lack of planning by the club. It also doesn't change the fact that Bellamy himself said that if a 17/18 kid at a championship club and he's not playing first team football then he's at the wrong club.

[ccfc_is_my_life]

Look, I know what you're saying but it doesn't change the fact that he has lost a year of his development because of lack of planning by the club. It also doesn't change the fact that Bellamy himself said that if a 17/18 kid at a championship club and he's not playing first team football then he's at the wrong club.

Only lack of planning was not clearing a lot of the DVP side out earlier. Instead they effectively had to reset.

How many 17/18yr olds were regularly playing Championship football last season? Ones like Sessignon very much in the minority. Bellamy's comment was pretty stupid on a number of levels.

[Blue in the Face]

When you talk about the schools and local authorities failing I don't think you realise how much time these children spend in the academy.
You are talking about 3 or 4 days a week for even 7 or 8 year olds.
After the age of 8 kids are stopped playing boys club football and they are only allowed to play for the club or their school.

Another point that you are dismissing when you talk about coaches turning water into wine is the club's record at the younger ages.

I know the u11s have beaten Arsenal (who pay their players up to £1500 a month) 10-1 and beat Liverpool 10-2 in the last couple of months.

These are not isolated cases as the kids tend to do this across the board at young ages.

I'm not saying we can read a great deal into these sorts of things at these ages but it definitely suggests to me that the raw talent is there but somewhere along the line it's going wrong.

I know Cardiff have tried to combat this by changing their philosophy to a more European system where it's more tactically based and moving the ball quickly has become paramount.

There are pros and cons with this as far as I can see. It's a good basis for youngsters learning the game as a whole and with our catchment area predominantly being of smaller less athletic kids this will help them long term to combat playing against bigger, faster players.
The cons of this is that sometimes kids are often robbed of self expression and imagination and it can be robotic and kids quickly lose their love for the game before they've even begun.

When I look at Sion Spence this season I personally feel that he has been mismanaged. Bellamy said the other night on the debate that if a lad is 17/18 in a championship club and he's not playing first team football then he's at the wrong club!

Well Spence was knocking on the door this time last year and this season he hardly even played u23 football.

That's a really interesting post Gringo. It's also an optimistic perspective in that you are showing that there is evidence in the younger age groups that the academy itself has potential that can realised or squandered for longer. I hope the powers that be are made come realise the points you are making.

Perhaps bringing in the best coaches across the age groups has been an expense we haven't been able to afford in the past. But let's hope it can soon with a slice of the PL cash.

[Loramski]

Look, I know what you're saying but it doesn't change the fact that he has lost a year of his development because of lack of planning by the club. It also doesn't change the fact that Bellamy himself said that if a 17/18 kid at a championship club and he's not playing first team football then he's at the wrong club.

Bluebelief said on here a couple of weeks ago that Spence had been playing through an injury this year and had pulled out of the Wales u-19 squad so he could rest up. It's difficult to judge the Spence situation (and so much else going on at youth levels) with little reliable information.

I saw the Bellamy debate, it reminded me of threads like this with the three of them going round in circles trying to find simple answers to an incredibly complex problem. They seemed unanimous that the big clubs are making it increasingly difficult for everyone else to bring their own youngsters through although I'm not aware of that being a big problem here yet (Matondo apart). Bellamy's comment was that 17-19 year olds were at the wrong club if they're not in a first team environment, presumably he includes loans in that but we seem to have a problem even sorting them out at present.

Good post earlier by the way. If you're convinced that the raw talent is here then that's encouraging and yet depressing that we haven't been able to bring it through to the first team in recent years. One thing you said completely threw me though; '...with our catchment area predominantly being of smaller, less athletic kids...'. You said it like it was a well known fact but I've never heard of that before and there was a collective jaw-drop at Loramski Towers when I asked if anyone else had. I'm not doubting you but it's news to me.

[thehumblegringo]

Bluebelief said on here a couple of weeks ago that Spence had been playing through an injury this year and had pulled out of the Wales u-19 squad so he could rest up. It's difficult to judge the Spence situation (and so much else going on at youth levels) with little reliable information.

I saw the Bellamy debate, it reminded me of threads like this with the three of them going round in circles trying to find simple answers to an incredibly complex problem. They seemed unanimous that the big clubs are making it increasingly difficult for everyone else to bring their own youngsters through although I'm not aware of that being a big problem here yet (Matondo apart). Bellamy's comment was that 17-19 year olds were at the wrong club if they're not in a first team environment, presumably he includes loans in that but we seem to have a problem even sorting them out at present.

Good post earlier by the way. If you're convinced that the raw talent is here then that's encouraging and yet depressing that we haven't been able to bring it through to the first team in recent years. One thing you said completely threw me though; '...with our catchment area predominantly being of smaller, less athletic kids...'. You said it like it was a well known fact but I've never heard of that before and there was a collective jaw-drop at Loramski Towers when I asked if anyone else had. I'm not doubting you but it's news to me.

When I say catchment area there's a word I'm looking for that's on the tip of my tongue which I can't quite find at the moment.

If you look at rugby for example, we can never really compete with a South Africa or a New Zealand in terms of sheer size amd strength and in years gone by we tried to throw the ball around to counteract it.

In football I'd say it's similar. The Catalans are not particularly large people (in general) and Barcelona have found a way to counteract that size difference when they face teams like Germany.

If you look at the England DNA which has been extremely successful at youth level in recent years you will see that large amounts of their success comes from one club - Chelsea.

A lot of their inner city kids they develop are black kids who are generally fast and stronger than a lot of the children in the south wales valleys. (Ps I'm not saying all black kids are faster and stronger but the ones Chelsea nurture are)

[the other bob wilson]

Bluebelief said on here a couple of weeks ago that Spence had been playing through an injury this year and had pulled out of the Wales u-19 squad so he could rest up. It's difficult to judge the Spence situation (and so much else going on at youth levels) with little reliable information.

I saw the Bellamy debate, it reminded me of threads like this with the three of them going round in circles trying to find simple answers to an incredibly complex problem. They seemed unanimous that the big clubs are making it increasingly difficult for everyone else to bring their own youngsters through although I'm not aware of that being a big problem here yet (Matondo apart). Bellamy's comment was that 17-19 year olds were at the wrong club if they're not in a first team environment, presumably he includes loans in that but we seem to have a problem even sorting them out at present.

Good post earlier by the way. If you're convinced that the raw talent is here then that's encouraging and yet depressing that we haven't been able to bring it through to the first team in recent years. One thing you said completely threw me though; '...with our catchment area predominantly being of smaller, less athletic kids...'. You said it like it was a well known fact but I've never heard of that before and there was a collective jaw-drop at Loramski Towers when I asked if anyone else had. I'm not doubting you but it's news to me.

You talk of an "incredibly complex problem" and, yet when applied in a Cardiff City context at least, explain it away with a simplistic "the players aren't good enough".

Again, we see blanket statements about no one wanting to take our players on loan when I would suggest there was at least the possibility that there may be reasons for this which have little to do with how good or bad our young players are. Say a small to middling League Two club, Cheltenham for example, were looking to recruit a youngster from a Championship club on loan for a season with a view to them being a regular starter in their first team. In the end, they narrow the field down to two players of very similar ability with club A prepared to let their player go to Cheltenham without a loan fee and with a very modest contribution needed to be paid by the League Two club. On the other hand, club B demand a loan fee and insist that the majority of the player's wages for the period of the loan are paid by Cheltenham. It seems pretty obvious to me which club Cheltenham would do business with - what if City are often "club B" in such cases, might that explain the lack of loans for our young players, rather than them just not being good enough?

I'm on the fence somewhat about whether it was a good thing for someone like Sion Spence to be kept out the Under 23 team for virtually the whole of the season just ended. For the first four or five months of the campaign, I would have said definitely not, but, by the spring, I was thinking he, and plenty of others, were probably better off out of it - I suppose the time to make a judgement on this season's Under 18 team and how they were kept apart from the Under 23s will be in a few years time.

However, what I'm absolutely certain of is that, the way the Development team operated was no good whatsoever to those young pros who were too old to play for the Under 18s.

If it is true that Rhys Abbruzzese has been released, then I think he would be justified in feeling bitter about how the last year of his contract was handled by the club. Abbruzzese may or may not have been good enough to have "made it" at Cardiff (his performances for Wales Under 21s suggested he had a chance), but he deserved better in such a defining season in his career, than being left out, or played out of position, in Under 23 matches whilst players, nearly always not as good as him, were given trials in his best position. I'm sure he'll be another who is dismissed as "not being good enough", but I think he could reasonably argue that, at a very important stage of his development, he was given too few chances to prove himself and, when he did get one, it was in an environment which was hardly conducive to pushing for a first team place.

Finally, regarding Gringo's comment about "smaller, less athletic kids", I'm not sure about the second bit, but what I would say is that, historically, the Welsh Rugby side was known for playing in a way which sought to avoid turning a match into an arm wrestle as they sought to get their backs into spaces where they could use their skills to exploit the spaces out wide. This policy was often explained away by the comment that, as a rule, Welsh players were not big enough to take on other teams up front and win, so, despite this approach having been virtually abandoned by the Welsh team in recent years, I would say Gringo has a point about our players generally being smaller - certainly, during thirteen seasons I think it is now of watching City Under 18 Academy teams play now, I have been struck by how often the average height of our opponents have been obviously taller than than ours.

[Loramski]

You talk of an "incredibly complex problem" and, yet when applied in a Cardiff City context at least, explain it away with a simplistic "the players aren't good enough".

Again, we see blanket statements about no one wanting to take our players on loan when I would suggest there was at least the possibility that there may be reasons for this which have little to do with how good or bad our young players are. Say a small to middling League Two club, Cheltenham for example, were looking to recruit a youngster from a Championship club on loan for a season with a view to them being a regular starter in their first team. In the end, they narrow the field down to two players of very similar ability with club A prepared to let their player go to Cheltenham without a loan fee and with a very modest contribution needed to be paid by the League Two club. On the other hand, club B demand a loan fee and insist that the majority of the player's wages for the period of the loan are paid by Cheltenham. It seems pretty obvious to me which club Cheltenham would do business with - what if City are often "club B" in such cases, might that explain the lack of loans for our young players, rather than them just not being good enough?

I'm on the fence somewhat about whether it was a good thing for someone like Sion Spence to be kept out the Under 23 team for virtually the whole of the season just ended. For the first four or five months of the campaign, I would have said definitely not, but, by the spring, I was thinking he, and plenty of others, were probably better off out of it - I suppose the time to make a judgement on this season's Under 18 team and how they were kept apart from the Under 23s will be in a few years time.

However, what I'm absolutely certain of is that, the way the Development team operated was no good whatsoever to those young pros who were too old to play for the Under 18s.

If it is true that Rhys Abbruzzese has been released, then I think he would be justified in feeling bitter about how the last year of his contract was handled by the club. Abbruzzese may or may not have been good enough to have "made it" at Cardiff (his performances for Wales Under 21s suggested he had a chance), but he deserved better in such a defining season in his career, than being left out, or played out of position, in Under 23 matches whilst players, nearly always not as good as him, were given trials in his best position. I'm sure he'll be another who is dismissed as "not being good enough", but I think he could reasonably argue that, at a very important stage of his development, he was given too few chances to prove himself and, when he did get one, it was in an environment which was hardly conducive to pushing for a first team place.

Finally, regarding Gringo's comment about "smaller, less athletic kids", I'm not sure about the second bit, but what I would say is that, historically, the Welsh Rugby side was known for playing in a way which sought to avoid turning a match into an arm wrestle as they sought to get their backs into spaces where they could use their skills to exploit the spaces out wide. This policy was often explained away by the comment that, as a rule, Welsh players were not big enough to take on other teams up front and win, so, despite this approach having been virtually abandoned by the Welsh team in recent years, I would say Gringo has a point about our players generally being smaller - certainly, during thirteen seasons I think it is now of watching City Under 18 Academy teams play now, I have been struck by how often the average height of our opponents have been obviously taller than than ours.

I think the youngsters we've been producing in recent years haven't been good enough for the first team, no, but the reasons for that are complex. I don't see a contradiction there.

The loan situation isn't simple, I agree. I'm always putting 'assume' and 'seems like' in there because I've got no idea if certain players were stopped from going or were offered the chance but didn't take it. It's that lack of information thing again. There's a smaller loan window too now which gives less opportunity for moves to league clubs but what I will say is that we had no problem loaning our DVP players out in recent years; O'Sullivan, Barnum-Bobb, John, Healey, Harris, Tutonda, O'Reilly, Nugent, Ralls, Ajayi, Johnson, Oshilaja and even younger lads like Bird, Menayese, Phipps and Humphries all went out, some more than once. That's suddenly dried up though. We were prepared to let Duffus go to 7th tier Hereford this season, Wilson and Byrne to the 6th tier and even Healey to the 5th tier, I don't get the impression we're being obstructive in any way.

The Abbruzzese situation is sad. I did say recently that him and Waite were good enough footballers to be playing at league level by now but the fact that they haven't grown enough is counting against them. That's not their fault or the club's, just as Gethyn Hill's injury wasn't a few years back. However well everyone plans it comes down to bad luck sometimes. The u-23s has been a shambles this season, don't ask me to try and make sense of it, but it did look like Abbruzzese was getting a particularly rough deal.

I agree City's youngsters are generally small, and that's not helping them push for the first team at present, but that's different to saying that the kids in this area are 'predominantly smaller and less athletic'. Gringo used it in a domestic sense so bringing international rugby into it doesn't really help unless there are some stats to back up his theory. I'm not saying he's wrong and it's an interesting point but I've never heard it said before so I'm wary of taking it as gospel, even off a poster as good as Gringo.

Here's an audio of the Bellamy debate, I'm sure you'll find it interesting. The Academy stuff starts with a brief Arsene Wenger interview at around 29.45. It's the longest link I've ever seen, hope it works ok.

https://audio-cdn.acast.com/stitched...AFARUOTJQ3BLOQ

[the other bob wilson]

Thanks for that link, it worked fine except that I had to listen to what came first to get to it - no problem in that though because I thought the whole thing was a good listen.

It was a fascinating discussion about the Academy system and Bellamy was able to provide a few figures which were pretty mind boggling (he has to be talking about Swansea with the budget for the Development team doesn't he?), but, in essence, has much really changed since the days when City used to have half a team and more full of local players in terms of recruitment of the best young talent? Back then the best teams in the country would have scouts everywhere (we were talking about Ramon Calliste earlier in the thread and he was recommended by someone who used to work for City, but has been with Manchester United for more than thirty years I believe) - yes, it's weighted even more in favour of the big guns now, but when has there been a time when Cardiff City were able to rely on being able to sign up the very best of the young talent coming through in this area? Yet there has always been a far bigger Welsh representation in the first team here than there has been in recent years and we've not done too badly overall relying heavily on locals who you might say were a little below the elite in terms of ability.

As for loans, by listing all of those players aren't you proving the line about us being unable to loan youngsters out because they are not good enough to be wrong?

Regarding Abbruzzese, I really, really hope that an alleged lack of inches did not play an important part in any decision to release him. I've been trying to find something which says how tall he is and could only find this

https://www.futhead.com/fifa-mobile/...ys-abbruzzese/

I don't know how reliable it is, but, I've seen him play enough times and five foot nine doesn't seem too far off to me. That's the same height as Ashley Cole. two inches taller than Philipp Lahm, three inches taller than Roberto Carlos (must admit I thought he was taller than that) and two inches bigger than Bixente Lizarazu - if we are saying that all of our full backs have to be taller than that lot as a matter of course, then I despair!

[Blue in the Face]

Loramski, you are right to say the debate is chaotic. There are a multiple variables that have to be considered when analysing the academy set up. I like that you are looking for empirical data to question things. Though without having (the possibly never gathered) stats on Welsh footballers physical attributes to back up my claim, or Gringo's rather, I feel quite conclusive that over the past fifteen years or so at least Welsh footballers tend to be smaller than many of our competitors.

The only players I can think of in the last decade and a half who have been capped and are over six foot are: Hennessey, Ward, Collins, McDonald, Vokes (dual national), possibly Ledley and maybe Tudor-Jones (?). Perhaps there are a couple of others. Our other goalkeepers through the age groups at the moment seem to be under 6 foot. As are our three starting centre backs who are all 5"10.

It does seem to be a continual trait to me but then the Welsh talent pot is small so the data is probably volatile.

[Jeff Mansfield]

I'd much rather we spent some of the Prem money on gaining Category 1 Academy Status so we could acquire and retain younger high quality players. The size and location of the Club means that our best long-term survival bet is likely to be as a team that provides opportunities for good young players to play in the first team that they wouldn't get in the bigger Clubs.

I think this would also appeal to the average Cardiff supporter who has long favoured home-grown players to expensive imports.

Agreed but I believe it costs a shedful of money to set one up and maintain it. The Jacks have one so it remains to be seen if they can afford to keep Cat 1. There's bound to be cost-cutting down there.

[Blue in the Face]

Agreed but I believe it costs a shedful of money to set one up and maintain it. The Jacks have one so it remains to be seen if they can afford to keep Cat 1. There's bound to be cost-cutting down there.

It's an interesting point about Swansea. Going off forum chat there seems to be some paranoia that virtue signalling on dipping into the academy will be used as subterfuge while their owners asset strip. If that does become the case, then it will be sometime still before the board is justified in cutting the academy budget. They should be trimming the fat off their senior squad anyway. But I wonder if them being successful if and when they utilise their strong dvp talent might show us the way somehow.

It could take a couple of seasons for that scenario at Swansea to play out. But if they do stay down for that time, I suspect a lot of clubs may be looking on to them as a litmus test for the academy structure given that their dvp side came within two games of winning PL2.

[Tuerto]

I disagree about Ramsey - the talent he has Warnock would find a way to incorporate him. It's doing both Warnock and Rambo an injustice to think otherwise imo. The closest equivalent to Rambo in our squad last year would have been Grujic; Rambo far more talent at 17.

Of course there are plenty of influences on a career. A lot of that is down to the player - some sulk at not making it at a club, others have the desire to prove the point they shouldn't have been released. It can go either way. I've also pointed out it's not always about talent - if stacked at a position you have to be excellent not just good.

The fact is, like it or not, the overwhelming majority of players released by Cardiff from the Academy system fall into the WPL/non-league/out of football category. It's equally lazy to believe that implies our system isn't good enough, manager doesn't rate them etc. There's a massive difference between somebody looking good enough against peers / lesser players and translating ability to the levels we're at.

I went to same school as Damon Searle. There were other kids who had all the tricks etc. You'd think they had more skill - Damon was the one who applied his ability and made a living out of it.

If Matondo walked away from football, then he'd be a blithering idiot and yes, not good enough - from a mental perspective. Now, if he doesn't make it at Man City - and let's be honest, I'd be amazed if he made it there due to the money they have to spend on better, more experienced players - then he's not good enough for elite level football at Man City.

If a youngster or more accurately their parents are swayed by the snake oil and nice benefits offered by a Prem club like Man City, there's always the risk a player believes they've made it rather than just being a small cog in a big wheel - look at Ramon Calliste as an example. Chased the big Prem club experience, bombed out.

People just need to accept that the vast majority of youth players will never make it; sure some might look good in youth games but there will always be better players released by Prem clubs as well. As Cat 2, we're very much picking from a lower pool of players than Cat 1 clubs.

I was an apprentice with Searly, and what you say is correct, his attitude was spot on, he worked his bollocks off. He was actually a central defender, a good one as well, I played at Left back, and jacked it in about 6 months in, he then moved into my position, so, i'm pretty much responsible for his career I remember when he put the head on jonathan Coates when we were playing Swansea u'18s on Ninian Park-He was sent off! This is a good debate, i'll have my say on it later.

[Loramski]

Thanks for that link, it worked fine except that I had to listen to what came first to get to it - no problem in that though because I thought the whole thing was a good listen.

It was a fascinating discussion about the Academy system and Bellamy was able to provide a few figures which were pretty mind boggling (he has to be talking about Swansea with the budget for the Development team doesn't he?), but, in essence, has much really changed since the days when City used to have half a team and more full of local players in terms of recruitment of the best young talent? Back then the best teams in the country would have scouts everywhere (we were talking about Ramon Calliste earlier in the thread and he was recommended by someone who used to work for City, but has been with Manchester United for more than thirty years I believe) - yes, it's weighted even more in favour of the big guns now, but when has there been a time when Cardiff City were able to rely on being able to sign up the very best of the young talent coming through in this area? Yet there has always been a far bigger Welsh representation in the first team here than there has been in recent years and we've not done too badly overall relying heavily on locals who you might say were a little below the elite in terms of ability.

As for loans, by listing all of those players aren't you proving the line about us being unable to loan youngsters out because they are not good enough to be wrong?

Regarding Abbruzzese, I really, really hope that an alleged lack of inches did not play an important part in any decision to release him. I've been trying to find something which says how tall he is and could only find this

https://www.futhead.com/fifa-mobile/...ys-abbruzzese/

I don't know how reliable it is, but, I've seen him play enough times and five foot nine doesn't seem too far off to me. That's the same height as Ashley Cole. two inches taller than Philipp Lahm, three inches taller than Roberto Carlos (must admit I thought he was taller than that) and two inches bigger than Bixente Lizarazu - if we are saying that all of our full backs have to be taller than that lot as a matter of course, then I despair!

I'll try and be brief here, we're going to use up the internet if we go on much longer.

Yes, that was an interesting debate with Bellamy. I was hoping he'd come up with some answers but I'm not sure even he knew how to deal with the problems he talked of. You're right I guess, things have always been weighted in favour of the bigger clubs. Whatever rules get brought in they'll find a way round them.

My point about the loans was that if we were able to get lads like Phipps and Bird out then what does it say about the current crop if we can't find them a club anywhere. It does give the impression that they're not highly rated but I accept there could be more to it than that.

I might be talking complete rubbish here but I always felt that Abbruzzese needed more of a physical presence about him if he was going to make it but it never quite came. Maybe I'm starting to think like Warnock now after watching his teams for this long. Hopefully Rhys will go on to play centre half for Burnley next season and that'll shut me right up. Feel free to bump this thread if he does.

[thehumblegringo]

When you talk about the schools and local authorities failing I don't think you realise how much time these children spend in the academy.
You are talking about 3 or 4 days a week for even 7 or 8 year olds.
After the age of 8 kids are stopped playing boys club football and they are only allowed to play for the club or their school.

Another point that you are dismissing when you talk about coaches turning water into wine is the club's record at the younger ages.

I know the u11s have beaten Arsenal (who pay their players up to £1500 a month) 10-1 and beat Liverpool 10-2 in the last couple of months.

These are not isolated cases as the kids tend to do this across the board at young ages.

I'm not saying we can read a great deal into these sorts of things at these ages but it definitely suggests to me that the raw talent is there but somewhere along the line it's going wrong.

I know Cardiff have tried to combat this by changing their philosophy to a more European system where it's more tactically based and moving the ball quickly has become paramount.

There are pros and cons with this as far as I can see. It's a good basis for youngsters learning the game as a whole and with our catchment area predominantly being of smaller less athletic kids this will help them long term to combat playing against bigger, faster players.
The cons of this is that sometimes kids are often robbed of self expression and imagination and it can be robotic and kids quickly lose their love for the game before they've even begun.

When I look at Sion Spence this season I personally feel that he has been mismanaged. Bellamy said the other night on the debate that if a lad is 17/18 in a championship club and he's not playing first team football then he's at the wrong club!

Well Spence was knocking on the door this time last year and this season he hardly even played u23 football.

Yesterday Cardiff u11s played in a Prem tournament against Brighton, Chelsea and Arsenal, Cardiff won the tournament with 2 wins against Arsenal, 2 wins against Chelsea and a win and a draw against Brighton.

Whilst it may be argued that Chelsea and Arsenal may be less result orientated at this age it can also be argued that there is definitely no shortage of raw talent in our catchment area and it needs to be realised at a later age.

[the other bob wilson]

https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news...e-cup-success/

and here's the club site take on the tournament Gringo mentioned

https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news...rophy-winners/

Impressive stuff and more evidence that it would appear that the problem is not a lack of talent in the area, more finding a way to sustain it until the players are in their late teens and early twenties.

[Loramski]

https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news...e-cup-success/

and here's the club site take on the tournament Gringo mentioned

https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news...rophy-winners/

Impressive stuff and more evidence that it would appear that the problem is not a lack of talent in the area, more finding a way to sustain it until the players are in their late teens and early twenties.

Very encouraging. I only caught the end of the under-14s cup game against Norwich recently and they were beaten heavily but it was a great achievement to have made the semis. The under-15s tournament win in Poland looked impressive too (six clean sheets in six games), there seems to be a lot of positives at present.

I'm not sure if we've always been this strong at those levels, you and Gringo may be able to help there. Have we been here before but the club didn't bring that talent through properly or is an extra effort being made to bring on the youngsters right from the start now? I'm impressed by the experience these lads are picking up, even the younger age groups get entered into tournaments far and wide. There doesn't seem to be a lack of commitment to the Academy, far from it.

I agree with you and Gringo, the talent does seem to be there now. It will be very disappointing if these lads don't push on over the next few years.

[the other bob wilson]

Gringo would be better qualified than me I think to know who successful we have been at the younger age groups down the years, but my suspicion is that you are right and this year is a bit of an exception - that said, this from this time last year celebrates more success at age groups under eleven against opposition like Southampton, who are often held up as one of the most successful clubs around when it comes to producing quality youngsters;-

https://www.cardiffcityfc.co.uk/news...an-tournament/

[thehumblegringo]

It's hard to say whether the talent has always been there cos only recently they've introduced competitive football for those age groups.

I'm torn whether it's a good thing or not to be honest. I think it's important to try to get the kid's buying into the winning mentality but often the coaches buy into it more than the kid's and are more focused on winning than player development.

I've been watching the younger age groups for a while and the problem used to be when the kid's switched to 11 a side football.

I don't think this is such an issue these days as there is a bigger focus on shape and game understanding at younger levels.

My fear would be now that we are building teams and not players maybe. If you look at Chelsea and Arsenal at these age groups, very little focus is on winning tournaments and football matches but they encourage individual creativity and expression.

I'm not sure what the right answer is if I'm honest and only time will tell I suppose.

One thing that is a contradiction though is that we have 11 year olds playing football that resembles Barcelona or Spain and then we have our first team playing a brand of football that is totally the opposite. Unless the club as a whole can find a way of becoming more fluid in its vision it will be impossible to ever realise any of the talent currently in the academy.

[MOZZER2]

One thing that is a contradiction though is that we have 11 year olds playing football that resembles Barcelona or Spain and then we have our first team playing a brand of football that is totally the opposite. Unless the club as a whole can find a way of becoming more fluid in its vision it will be impossible to ever realise any of the talent currently in the academy.[/QUOTE]

well you know my stance on children and youth football gringo but the fact still remains what i,ve been harping on about for the last 10 years on here is nurturing futsal to the younger generation in the uk but the depressing fact is we are about 20 years behind the rest of the major footballing nations to make any difference

will be interesting if england go out of the world cup early doors and the back lash that will follow in the media about the state of our game like every major tournament in the last 20 years whilst the prem league is considered the best .

https://www.theguardian.com/football...d-messi-neymar

the above article is good but far too little too late to make an impact . a good point you made about our under 11's regarding playing like spain in reality most kids want to play the passing game these days which as you mention goes against the grain in terms of our first team . Looks like the fulham owner has wound up a few people on here too regarding that

[Louth]

I think a lot of city fans are kidding themselves regarding an Academy.

The chances of bringing a couple of players on are slim. I can't help thinking its a case of tokenism.

We need to be successful and working within the community. That'll bring more positive benefits for the club.

[thehumblegringo]

One thing that is a contradiction though is that we have 11 year olds playing football that resembles Barcelona or Spain and then we have our first team playing a brand of football that is totally the opposite. Unless the club as a whole can find a way of becoming more fluid in its vision it will be impossible to ever realise any of the talent currently in the academy.

well you know my stance on children and youth football gringo but the fact still remains what i,ve been harping on about for the last 10 years on here is nurturing futsal to the younger generation in the uk but the depressing fact is we are about 20 years behind the rest of the major footballing nations to make any difference

will be interesting if england go out of the world cup early doors and the back lash that will follow in the media about the state of our game like every major tournament in the last 20 years whilst the prem league is considered the best .

https://www.theguardian.com/football...d-messi-neymar

the above article is good but far too little too late to make an impact . a good point you made about our under 11's regarding playing like spain in reality most kids want to play the passing game these days which as you mention goes against the grain in terms of our first team . Looks like the fulham owner has wound up a few people on here too regarding that [/QUOTE]

I know people like Pete Sturge and the England DNA are very strong advocates of Futsal in youth development. Mark Neville who used to be foundation phase head at Cardiff is also a big believer in Futsal amd allowing the kid's to involved in a lot of free play enhance their creativity and decision making.

As far as I can see now though, Cardiff merely pay lip service to Futsal now. The kids have Futsal training once a week but it's played with a normal football and dribbling and expression are not encouraged in the slightest. It's basically football on a hard surface and the only thing it tends to develop is severs disease!

I've probably said this before but my biggest issue with Futsal (and I may be wrong) is that I don't understand why they don't have enclosed walls like old school 5 a side. The ball seems to be out of play more than its in play in Futsal and surely this is not great for kids development.

I know most clubs are following the success of the England DNA and I truly hope Southgate will stay true to this when the questions come when England get knocked out of the world cup.

It does seem to be working at the moment but it won't happen overnight.

[MOZZER2]

I've probably said this before but my biggest issue with Futsal (and I may be wrong) is that I don't understand why they don't have enclosed walls like old school 5 a side. The ball seems to be out of play more than its in play in Futsal and surely this is not great for kids development.

you are wrong when you say the ball is out of court more than in . Been lucky to have watched top class futsal all over the uk and abroad as well mainly due to my lad involved in the national team but the whole reason they don't have walls so players have more time with the ball and alot more touches with the ball , rotations where players can play anywhere in small size spaces .

as the game itself england are now starting to take it seriously as they have now began to run a under 19 side as well as the national side whilst i,m hearing rumours and only rumours at the minute the welsh fa are going to set up a national youth side this season too which is good for the game itself . i guess the welsh fa will be targeting the WPL league clubs ?

as for developing great football players in the uk using futsal as a tool as mentioned we are far too behind to make any significant impact at top level football