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Thread: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

  1. #26

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish View Post
    Spent wisely, it's the closest thing to a guarantee in football..
    Well of course, because of hindsight. No one who got relegated ever 'spent wisely'.

    We obviously need something a bit different in the middle of the park but I would be disappointed if we start next season with less than 8-9 of our current 'best XI' playing (accounting for injuries).

  2. #27

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    People are talking as if we only have two options, either rely on Bosmans, loans and Scottish League players or another 2013 style spending splurge. It feels like the discussion is being held in black and white terms, when the sum involved is so big that there is a huge amount of grey in the middle.
    Have you considered the £25 - 50M in wages we’ll have to spend too? If we spend £40M on transfers/loans then I reckon we’ll have spent everything we’ll earn. I’m of the ‘let’s be prudent’ view and think this would be up to £40M excluding wages in my view.

  3. #28

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    People are talking as if we only have two options, either rely on Bosmans, loans and Scottish League players or another 2013 style spending splurge. It feels like the discussion is being held in black and white terms, when the sum involved is so big that there is a huge amount of grey in the middle.
    Andre Ayew cost 20 million, twice. No dig on him, he is a decent top flight player but that is now pretty much the average for an established attacking player signing for a premier league side. I just don't see how we compete without looking for bargains.

  4. #29

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    This.

    We a month on from the season and people have already forgotten what brought us promotion. Chucking money around might be exciting but it guarantees nothing.
    Didn’t the jacks spend 65 million last season? That says it all

  5. #30

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    We can't say too much if Vincent Tan has decided that he wants to pocket all of the promotion money
    Sorry to harp on about it but if Tan had converted the debts to equity as he had promised, then he would not be allowed to "pocket all the promotion money". As it is, the club owes him a huge amount of money and he can call in his debts at any time which makes a scenario of him pocketing the club's promotion money a possibility (although I think it's an unlikely possibility).

    And what is that debt? £100m ish.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    , because the man has kept the club afloat virtually single handedly throughout virtually all of this decade
    How much do you think it has cost him to keep the club afloat? £100m? No chance and let's also not forget that the club was also in receipt of Sky money for the last few seasons. A lot of that £100m was spent on an ego trip in 2012-14. Money that HE decided to spend, extra wages that HE incurred on the club, extra building work that HE decided was necessary etc etc. Now, we have a situation where at least one Cardiff fan (you) seems to be making allowances for Tan to recoup the money he has lost in numerous failed gambles if he so desires. He is a billionaire, he made a conscious decision to buy Cardiff City. I assume he did so knowing what the finances were like at the time. These are risks he happily accepted.

    The club's debt has increased 5-6 times under his management/ownership - how much of that debt is down to mismanagement, overspending (Madine £6m, Tomlin £2m - just this season's examples of "keeping the club afloat")?

    At no stage has Vincent Tan taken responsibility for the bad decisions he has made. He was quick to blame Mackay for the signing of Cornelius (which, you would assume, would have been signed off by the CEO), and he has wasted no opportunities in reminding the media about that signing.

    What were the administration costs at Cardiff City in the Premier League? What were those fees for? Agent's fees? Or something else? How much money do the club owe Vincent Tan for Vincent Tan flying various dignatories to Cardiff from Malaysia for the odd game? Is it £0? Is it more? Do these count as "keeping the club afloat"?

    What about the 1MCC project? How much do Cardiff City owe Vincent Tan for this? Is it £0? Is it more? If it is more, are these costs also attributable to "keeping the club afloat".

    I agree with you in that I don't think Tan will "pocket the money". But, if he does, I sincerely hope that more is said than "Ah well, he did keep the club afloat for a few years" because it really doesn't seem to be as simple as that does it? Vincent Tan is responsible for the success or otherwise of the business whilst he is the owner. If it turns a profit, then he has every right to take a dividend. If it turns huge losses, then I think he needs to take responsibility too. I am not suggesting he won't take responsibility (although there are very few signs that he is doing that, just empty promises often underwritten with less than clear reasons for not being made) - but I am alarmed that one of the more sensible and more well researched fans on this board is willing to accept an owner "pocketing the money" given the less than clear backdrop of Cardiff City's finances.

    Here's a question - if TG remained as the "owner" without investment from Vincent Tan, do you think Cardiff City would be as heavily in debt today?

  6. #31

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Anything new?

  7. #32

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    People are talking as if we only have two options, either rely on Bosmans, loans and Scottish League players or another 2013 style spending splurge. It feels like the discussion is being held in black and white terms, when the sum involved is so big that there is a huge amount of grey in the middle.
    My focus in 2013 was more off the field, but I feel that it wasn't so much the spending splurge that tripped us up when promoted but the types of players signed and the gaps of quality left in the side. For example, we had Taylor (no pace) or John (almost not prior game time) only as left-back and immediately opened us up down that side, asking too much of Cb's/GK, while there wasn't a real attacking threat so not enough going through other way either. Stoke this year made a mess, despite spending a lot of money last summer, and frankly they were hoping to survive til this summer from the first game of the season. They signed two full-backs quite cheaply in January (one on loan) and immediately had a much better chance.

    Spending a lot of money on big names or spending a restricted amount of money can either improve key positions and form part of a plan to stay up or can leave gaps in the starting line-up/squad and give us a mountain to climb.

    Think it's positions and qualities that we need to talk about rather than sums of money.

  8. #33

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    I really don't understand your post at all.
    We saw what "going for it" did last time.

    We had 3 or 4 years where the club was in danger of slipping back into the oblivion of the 80's and 90's.

    We were paying out massive sums of money to players who left the club long ago and recovery year we were cutting our wage bill further.

    Even this season Warnock said that if we didn't go up we'd be forced to sell assets like Joe Ralls.

    Time and time again I think it has been shown that the best approach is to pick off the better championship players in the hope that you can just about stay up then build from there.

    I'd be happy to see us see off the majority of our debt bring in some big sponsors as a result of going up, sign quality championship players who would become assets or even stay with us if we do go back down and be one of the favourites to come back up.
    The best championship players now cost silly money so following the Burnley model will be extremely difficult on a budget.

  9. #34
    Heisenberg
    Guest

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by goats View Post
    Didn’t the jacks spend 65 million last season? That says it all
    They still didn't spend as much as they brought in though - which appears to be one of the reasons that their fans were apoplectic with the owners.

  10. #35

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Some people have very short memories. To advocate spending most of the tv money we are going to get is crazy. We spent over £40m last time just on transfers and saddled ourselves with massive salaries and useless players that we couldn't get rid of. There was no team spirit or fight and that led to relegation, Slade, Trollope, etc etc.

  11. #36

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by Badly Ironed Shirt View Post
    Sorry to harp on about it but if Tan had converted the debts to equity as he had promised, then he would not be allowed to "pocket all the promotion money". As it is, the club owes him a huge amount of money and he can call in his debts at any time which makes a scenario of him pocketing the club's promotion money a possibility (although I think it's an unlikely possibility).

    And what is that debt? £100m ish.



    How much do you think it has cost him to keep the club afloat? £100m? No chance and let's also not forget that the club was also in receipt of Sky money for the last few seasons. A lot of that £100m was spent on an ego trip in 2012-14. Money that HE decided to spend, extra wages that HE incurred on the club, extra building work that HE decided was necessary etc etc. Now, we have a situation where at least one Cardiff fan (you) seems to be making allowances for Tan to recoup the money he has lost in numerous failed gambles if he so desires. He is a billionaire, he made a conscious decision to buy Cardiff City. I assume he did so knowing what the finances were like at the time. These are risks he happily accepted.

    The club's debt has increased 5-6 times under his management/ownership - how much of that debt is down to mismanagement, overspending (Madine £6m, Tomlin £2m - just this season's examples of "keeping the club afloat")?

    At no stage has Vincent Tan taken responsibility for the bad decisions he has made. He was quick to blame Mackay for the signing of Cornelius (which, you would assume, would have been signed off by the CEO), and he has wasted no opportunities in reminding the media about that signing.

    What were the administration costs at Cardiff City in the Premier League? What were those fees for? Agent's fees? Or something else? How much money do the club owe Vincent Tan for Vincent Tan flying various dignatories to Cardiff from Malaysia for the odd game? Is it £0? Is it more? Do these count as "keeping the club afloat"?

    What about the 1MCC project? How much do Cardiff City owe Vincent Tan for this? Is it £0? Is it more? If it is more, are these costs also attributable to "keeping the club afloat".

    I agree with you in that I don't think Tan will "pocket the money". But, if he does, I sincerely hope that more is said than "Ah well, he did keep the club afloat for a few years" because it really doesn't seem to be as simple as that does it? Vincent Tan is responsible for the success or otherwise of the business whilst he is the owner. If it turns a profit, then he has every right to take a dividend. If it turns huge losses, then I think he needs to take responsibility too. I am not suggesting he won't take responsibility (although there are very few signs that he is doing that, just empty promises often underwritten with less than clear reasons for not being made) - but I am alarmed that one of the more sensible and more well researched fans on this board is willing to accept an owner "pocketing the money" given the less than clear backdrop of Cardiff City's finances.

    Here's a question - if TG remained as the "owner" without investment from Vincent Tan, do you think Cardiff City would be as heavily in debt today?
    You really have excelled yourself with this load of crap. Suffice to say it is Tans money and he can do with it what he likes. PS. TG didnt own the club as far as I am aware, he was a figurehead and the money was other peoples, mostly Vincent Tans. TG stepped aside when Tan became fully involved.

  12. #37

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by Fine Lines View Post
    What if he keeps the 100 mill odd we are gonna get this year and pays off the debt ? Much more attractive investment then.
    maybe, but we will be in the Championship again

    whilst we are in the prem, we are marketable

  13. #38
    Heisenberg
    Guest

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by dml1954 View Post
    Some people have very short memories. To advocate spending most of the tv money we are going to get is crazy. We spent over £40m last time just on transfers and saddled ourselves with massive salaries and useless players that we couldn't get rid of. There was no team spirit or fight and that led to relegation, Slade, Trollope, etc etc.
    That's interesting. If we do spend loads this season, does that mean you will be critical of the manager and the board?

  14. #39

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Andre Ayew cost 20 million, twice. No dig on him, he is a decent top flight player but that is now pretty much the average for an established attacking player signing for a premier league side. I just don't see how we compete without looking for bargains.
    I must admit that the "experienced Premier League" criteria which it is said we are going to be using baffles me a little, because, unless we are talking about veterans looking at their last season or two, it's the worst market you can shop in surely? Far better surely to look at Football League like Burnley, the team who are supposedly the template for us to follow, do rather than looking for Andre Ayew types.

    Talking of Burnley, their accounts for 16/17 showed total salary costs of £61 million

    http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk...bill_increase/

    that's considerably more than than ours is, yet they were still able to post a profit for the year.

    Whether you believe figures like the ones used in this website

    http://www.spotrac.com/epl/burnley-f.c/payroll/

    is up to you (I must admit a total salary of almost £28 million on the playing side in 2018/19 does not sit well alongside a total salary bill more than double that in the previous season, but I notice signing bonuses are not included, so I suppose it could be possible for the figures to be correct if they are just a basic salary without any bonuses). However, the important figure to me is the £35,000 per week - if we made that the most we would pay any player at the club, then we are talking an annual salary of just over £1.8 million. Let's say we spent £35 million in transfer fees to bring in six players who were all on that club max figure, you are talking in terms of slightly over £47 million.

    This would be added to a total salary figure for the players still at the club who were being paid £20 million according to the 16/17 accounts (let's assume that figure increased by a quarter in 17/18, so it's £25 million now). If that doubles with our promotion, we are talking about a total spend of £97 million which is more or less what we are going to receive in television rights and then we have all of the other income streams available to the club and we will, surely, be raising income through player sales and loans with subsequent wage bill reductions.

  15. #40

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by J R Hartley View Post
    The best championship players now cost silly money so following the Burnley model will be extremely difficult on a budget.
    Whilst I agree to an extent, i do believe we could strengthen the squad substantially with players who wouldn't demand the type of fees that a Grealish or Cairney would.

    I'm thinking of players like Joe Bryan, Luke Freeman, Barry Bannan, Forestieri, Ollie Watkins etc who would make us a better team in my opinion.
    I don't know the type of fee Bobby Reid would command but I know one thing, Most of the above players wouldn't demand the sort of wages someone who currently plays in the premier would ask for.

    We'd also be in very good position to grab the very best players from league one.

    I'd love to see us pick up a few gems from the continent, I just don't see us utilising that market too much during this window.

  16. #41

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    The impression being given by the local media is that we won't have much of a budget and I think there is a feeling among some that the "miracle" which worked when we signed one of the division's best keepers for nothing on what I presume are low wages, signed a winger for nothing on similar wages who started and ended the season playing very well in a promotion team, signed an injured Scottish full back for nothing who ended up as our top league goalscorer and a French midfielder for nothing on the lowest wages for a senior player at the club, yet provided good cover and, occasionally, excellent performances, can be repeated.

    I don't think it can and if we are going to only have the reported £20 million for transfers, then we are going to need there to be some really ropey teams in the Premier League if we are to stay up. £30 million doesn't buy you a great deal in the modern Premier League, while a £40 million budget is seen as quite modest. We can't say too much if Vincent Tan has decided that he wants to pocket all of the promotion money, because the man has kept the club afloat virtually single handedly throughout virtually all of this decade, but, if as I suspect, he's not going to do that, then I see no reason why we can't spend somewhere between those two figures to give us a reasonable chance of surviving - there'll still be more than £40 million left and that's before we even start thinking about parachute payments.
    I agree Bob

  17. #42
    Heisenberg
    Guest

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    Quote Originally Posted by dml1954
    Some people have very short memories. To advocate spending most of the tv money we are going to get is crazy. We spent over £40m last time just on transfers and saddled ourselves with massive salaries and useless players that we couldn't get rid of. There was no team spirit or fight and that led to relegation, Slade, Trollope, etc etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    That's interesting. If we do spend loads this season, does that mean you will be critical of the manager and the board?
    If Smithies and Bobby Reid sign for their rumoured prices, that's approximately £30m already, with over a month left of the transfer window (and without the January window). How do you feel about that, dml?

  18. #43
    Heisenberg
    Guest

    Re: City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

    dml?

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