City - I hope the club put Premiership survival before football 'austerity..

[A Quiet Monkfish]

We're here, and it was a footballing miracle. Whilst you can never say 'never' in football, it's unlikely we will get another crack at top flight football for a long time. There are the odd exceptions like Huddersfield and Bournemouth who are 'small' clubs but who both had superb managers and excellent recruitment strategies, but the Championship becomes tougher with each tranche of relegated clubs - it's becoming a 2nd tier Premiership in many ways which the likes of Ipswich, QPR, will struggle to compete in.

So I really hope the club gives Warnock big bucks, whether in loan deals or transfers. I think we all acknowledge we are somewhat behind Wolves and Fulham in being Premiership-ready, and whilst the likes of Snodgrass would be a good addition to the squad, we really need to transform the team into Warnock City mark 2.

To go into the first 10 or so games not able to compete could well finish our season before it begins. We are a Premiership club, in some ways more so than Burnley, Bournemouth and Huddersfield - the CCS feels like a top-flight club when it's full and buzzing. The Club must have confidence that big spending, [and well], will ensure the club's survival. If Swansea can spend 7 seasons there surely we can be aiming to do the same. Otherwise, what's the point ?

[Rjk]

The championship is more fun anyway.

[Jimmy the Jock]

I guess you didnt hear Warnock on Talk sport last week.

He constantly referred to Burnley coming up , spending no money, being relegated then coming up the following season bigger and stronger, it seemed to be his mantra .
Our budget is half what Huddersfields was. I guess the club have learnt from the previous mistakes .
We wont be splashing the cash

[qccfc]

We're here, and it was a footballing miracle. Whilst you can never say 'never' in football, it's unlikely we will get another crack at top flight football for a long time. There are the odd exceptions like Huddersfield and Bournemouth who are 'small' clubs but who both had superb managers and excellent recruitment strategies, but the Championship becomes tougher with each tranche of relegated clubs - it's becoming a 2nd tier Premiership in many ways which the likes of Ipswich, QPR, will struggle to compete in.

So I really hope the club gives Warnock big bucks, whether in loan deals or transfers. I think we all acknowledge we are somewhat behind Wolves and Fulham in being Premiership-ready, and whilst the likes of Snodgrass would be a good addition to the squad, we really need to transform the team into Warnock City mark 2.

To go into the first 10 or so games not able to compete could well finish our season before it begins. We are a Premiership club, in some ways more so than Burnley, Bournemouth and Huddersfield - the CCS feels like a top-flight club when it's full and buzzing. The Club must have confidence that big spending, [and well], will ensure the club's survival. If Swansea can spend 7 seasons there surely we can be aiming to do the same. Otherwise, what's the point ?

You have to be prudent with the aim of being strong when you go back down into the Championship.

By going for it, there is a chance you will still get relegated, but you are carrying a massive wage bill and none of the players you have want to stay with you, that is how you shoot straight out of the championship and into league 1.

Sign players that may keep you up, but dont cripple you when you go down.

[Fine Lines]

Premiership survival is not guaranteed by spending millions. Every team that got promoted last season stayed up. Teams that spent big went down. There is very little correlation between the two in my opinion.

[City123]

Premiership survival is not guaranteed by spending millions. Every team that got promoted last season stayed up. Teams that spent big went down. There is very little correlation between the two in my opinion.

According to transfermakt, Huddersfield spent around £50m last season, Newcastle spent around £35m and Brighton spent around £55m

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Premiership survival is not guaranteed by spending millions. Every team that got promoted last season stayed up. Teams that spent big went down. There is very little correlation between the two in my opinion.

Every side in the Prem spent more than 10m last season on one player. I'd much rather we spent that money on someone from the Championship, that is hungry and wants to do well but the truth is, it's going to be very, very tough if we don't strengthen significantly.

[thehumblegringo]

I really don't understand your post at all.
We saw what "going for it" did last time.

We had 3 or 4 years where the club was in danger of slipping back into the oblivion of the 80's and 90's.

We were paying out massive sums of money to players who left the club long ago and recovery year we were cutting our wage bill further.

Even this season Warnock said that if we didn't go up we'd be forced to sell assets like Joe Ralls.

Time and time again I think it has been shown that the best approach is to pick off the better championship players in the hope that you can just about stay up then build from there.

I'd be happy to see us see off the majority of our debt bring in some big sponsors as a result of going up, sign quality championship players who would become assets or even stay with us if we do go back down and be one of the favourites to come back up.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

I really don't understand your post at all.
We saw what "going for it" did last time.

We had 3 or 4 years where the club was in danger of slipping back into the oblivion of the 80's and 90's.

We were paying out massive sums of money to players who left the club long ago and recovery year we were cutting our wage bill further.

Even this season Warnock said that if we didn't go up we'd be forced to sell assets like Joe Ralls.

Time and time again I think it has been shown that the best approach is to pick off the better championship players in the hope that you can just about stay up then build from there.

I'd be happy to see us see off the majority of our debt bring in some big sponsors as a result of going up, sign quality championship players who would become assets or even stay with us if we do go back down and be one of the favourites to come back up.

If we go back down, I doubt we would 'come back up' for years..

[blue matt]

i have said it before, i would prefer to go " all in " and go for it

we are 100 Mill plus in debt to Vinnie, it will not matter if thats 200 Mill as no-one would buy us for the amount of debt we are in, so Vinnie will have to take a hit on it ( if he wants out )

[Vindec]

I hope the club puts survival before wasting millions on players. Reckless spending will bring about the club's downfall or even demise. If the club was £200m in debt as advocated by the previous poster who would provide the extra cash to keep the club afloat. Nobody! And how much would we need to spend to compete against those teams close to the bottom of the Premier League such as Southampton, West Ham, Watford and Brighton? These teams have players that are unaffordable to us so it is questionable if we could compete even if the budget was blown. The club's current prudent approach is the correct one in my view.

[goats]

We're here, and it was a footballing miracle. Whilst you can never say 'never' in football, it's unlikely we will get another crack at top flight football for a long time. There are the odd exceptions like Huddersfield and Bournemouth who are 'small' clubs but who both had superb managers and excellent recruitment strategies, but the Championship becomes tougher with each tranche of relegated clubs - it's becoming a 2nd tier Premiership in many ways which the likes of Ipswich, QPR, will struggle to compete in.

So I really hope the club gives Warnock big bucks, whether in loan deals or transfers. I think we all acknowledge we are somewhat behind Wolves and Fulham in being Premiership-ready, and whilst the likes of Snodgrass would be a good addition to the squad, we really need to transform the team into Warnock City mark 2.

To go into the first 10 or so games not able to compete could well finish our season before it begins. We are a Premiership club, in some ways more so than Burnley, Bournemouth and Huddersfield - the CCS feels like a top-flight club when it's full and buzzing. The Club must have confidence that big spending, [and well], will ensure the club's survival. If Swansea can spend 7 seasons there surely we can be aiming to do the same. Otherwise, what's the point ?

We spent a chunk last time, proved useless. A decent manager and recruitment is vital at this level as Bournemouth, Burnley and Swansea proved. Don’t really see hudds as a role model, they only survived because the jacks imploded in the last 9 games picking up 3 points.

[NYCBlue]

I think if we don't spend at least £50m, we won't stand a chance.

[Fine Lines]

i have said it before, i would prefer to go " all in " and go for it

we are 100 Mill plus in debt to Vinnie, it will not matter if thats 200 Mill as no-one would buy us for the amount of debt we are in, so Vinnie will have to take a hit on it ( if he wants out )

What if he keeps the 100 mill odd we are gonna get this year and pays off the debt ? Much more attractive investment then.

[blue matt]

What if he keeps the 100 mill odd we are gonna get this year and pays off the debt ? Much more attractive investment then.

maybe, but we will be in the Championship again

whilst we are in the prem, we are marketable

[goats]

Premiership survival is not guaranteed by spending millions. Every team that got promoted last season stayed up. Teams that spent big went down. There is very little correlation between the two in my opinion.

All the teams that went down made bad mgt decisions which cost them big time

[the other bob wilson]

The impression being given by the local media is that we won't have much of a budget and I think there is a feeling among some that the "miracle" which worked when we signed one of the division's best keepers for nothing on what I presume are low wages, signed a winger for nothing on similar wages who started and ended the season playing very well in a promotion team, signed an injured Scottish full back for nothing who ended up as our top league goalscorer and a French midfielder for nothing on the lowest wages for a senior player at the club, yet provided good cover and, occasionally, excellent performances, can be repeated.

I don't think it can and if we are going to only have the reported £20 million for transfers, then we are going to need there to be some really ropey teams in the Premier League if we are to stay up. £30 million doesn't buy you a great deal in the modern Premier League, while a £40 million budget is seen as quite modest. We can't say too much if Vincent Tan has decided that he wants to pocket all of the promotion money, because the man has kept the club afloat virtually single handedly throughout virtually all of this decade, but, if as I suspect, he's not going to do that, then I see no reason why we can't spend somewhere between those two figures to give us a reasonable chance of surviving - there'll still be more than £40 million left and that's before we even start thinking about parachute payments.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

The impression being given by the local media is that we won't have much of a budget and I think there is a feeling among some that the "miracle" which worked when we signed one of the division's best keepers for nothing on what I presume are low wages, signed a winger for nothing on similar wages who started and ended the season playing very well in a promotion team, signed an injured Scottish full back for nothing who ended up as our top league goalscorer and a French midfielder for nothing on the lowest wages for a senior player at the club, yet provided good cover and, occasionally, excellent performances, can be repeated.

I don't think it can and if we are going to only have the reported £20 million for transfers, then we are going to need there to be some really ropey teams in the Premier League if we are to stay up. £30 million doesn't buy you a great deal in the modern Premier League, while a £40 million budget is seen as quite modest. We can't say too much if Vincent Tan has decided that he wants to pocket all of the promotion money, because the man has kept the club afloat virtually single handedly throughout virtually all of this decade, but, if as I suspect, he's not going to do that, then I see no reason why we can't spend somewhere between those two figures to give us a reasonable chance of surviving - there'll still be more than £40 million left and that's before we even start thinking about parachute payments.

Agree. There seems to be an assumption that if you spend low, you're spending 'wisely', and if you spend high, you're 'reckless'. Burnley coming back up as they did hasn't been repeated and is unlikely to be, teams in the Championship are spending tens of millions to get promotion but failing miserably. We are here, we've done it, and let's make sure we can hang around a bit longer...

[Badly Ironed Shirt]

We can't say too much if Vincent Tan has decided that he wants to pocket all of the promotion money

Sorry to harp on about it but if Tan had converted the debts to equity as he had promised, then he would not be allowed to "pocket all the promotion money". As it is, the club owes him a huge amount of money and he can call in his debts at any time which makes a scenario of him pocketing the club's promotion money a possibility (although I think it's an unlikely possibility).

And what is that debt? £100m ish.

, because the man has kept the club afloat virtually single handedly throughout virtually all of this decade

How much do you think it has cost him to keep the club afloat? £100m? No chance and let's also not forget that the club was also in receipt of Sky money for the last few seasons. A lot of that £100m was spent on an ego trip in 2012-14. Money that HE decided to spend, extra wages that HE incurred on the club, extra building work that HE decided was necessary etc etc. Now, we have a situation where at least one Cardiff fan (you) seems to be making allowances for Tan to recoup the money he has lost in numerous failed gambles if he so desires. He is a billionaire, he made a conscious decision to buy Cardiff City. I assume he did so knowing what the finances were like at the time. These are risks he happily accepted.

The club's debt has increased 5-6 times under his management/ownership - how much of that debt is down to mismanagement, overspending (Madine £6m, Tomlin £2m - just this season's examples of "keeping the club afloat")?

At no stage has Vincent Tan taken responsibility for the bad decisions he has made. He was quick to blame Mackay for the signing of Cornelius (which, you would assume, would have been signed off by the CEO), and he has wasted no opportunities in reminding the media about that signing.

What were the administration costs at Cardiff City in the Premier League? What were those fees for? Agent's fees? Or something else? How much money do the club owe Vincent Tan for Vincent Tan flying various dignatories to Cardiff from Malaysia for the odd game? Is it £0? Is it more? Do these count as "keeping the club afloat"?

What about the 1MCC project? How much do Cardiff City owe Vincent Tan for this? Is it £0? Is it more? If it is more, are these costs also attributable to "keeping the club afloat".

I agree with you in that I don't think Tan will "pocket the money". But, if he does, I sincerely hope that more is said than "Ah well, he did keep the club afloat for a few years" because it really doesn't seem to be as simple as that does it? Vincent Tan is responsible for the success or otherwise of the business whilst he is the owner. If it turns a profit, then he has every right to take a dividend. If it turns huge losses, then I think he needs to take responsibility too. I am not suggesting he won't take responsibility (although there are very few signs that he is doing that, just empty promises often underwritten with less than clear reasons for not being made) - but I am alarmed that one of the more sensible and more well researched fans on this board is willing to accept an owner "pocketing the money" given the less than clear backdrop of Cardiff City's finances.

Here's a question - if TG remained as the "owner" without investment from Vincent Tan, do you think Cardiff City would be as heavily in debt today?

[dml1954]

Sorry to harp on about it but if Tan had converted the debts to equity as he had promised, then he would not be allowed to "pocket all the promotion money". As it is, the club owes him a huge amount of money and he can call in his debts at any time which makes a scenario of him pocketing the club's promotion money a possibility (although I think it's an unlikely possibility).

And what is that debt? £100m ish.



How much do you think it has cost him to keep the club afloat? £100m? No chance and let's also not forget that the club was also in receipt of Sky money for the last few seasons. A lot of that £100m was spent on an ego trip in 2012-14. Money that HE decided to spend, extra wages that HE incurred on the club, extra building work that HE decided was necessary etc etc. Now, we have a situation where at least one Cardiff fan (you) seems to be making allowances for Tan to recoup the money he has lost in numerous failed gambles if he so desires. He is a billionaire, he made a conscious decision to buy Cardiff City. I assume he did so knowing what the finances were like at the time. These are risks he happily accepted.

The club's debt has increased 5-6 times under his management/ownership - how much of that debt is down to mismanagement, overspending (Madine £6m, Tomlin £2m - just this season's examples of "keeping the club afloat")?

At no stage has Vincent Tan taken responsibility for the bad decisions he has made. He was quick to blame Mackay for the signing of Cornelius (which, you would assume, would have been signed off by the CEO), and he has wasted no opportunities in reminding the media about that signing.

What were the administration costs at Cardiff City in the Premier League? What were those fees for? Agent's fees? Or something else? How much money do the club owe Vincent Tan for Vincent Tan flying various dignatories to Cardiff from Malaysia for the odd game? Is it £0? Is it more? Do these count as "keeping the club afloat"?

What about the 1MCC project? How much do Cardiff City owe Vincent Tan for this? Is it £0? Is it more? If it is more, are these costs also attributable to "keeping the club afloat".

I agree with you in that I don't think Tan will "pocket the money". But, if he does, I sincerely hope that more is said than "Ah well, he did keep the club afloat for a few years" because it really doesn't seem to be as simple as that does it? Vincent Tan is responsible for the success or otherwise of the business whilst he is the owner. If it turns a profit, then he has every right to take a dividend. If it turns huge losses, then I think he needs to take responsibility too. I am not suggesting he won't take responsibility (although there are very few signs that he is doing that, just empty promises often underwritten with less than clear reasons for not being made) - but I am alarmed that one of the more sensible and more well researched fans on this board is willing to accept an owner "pocketing the money" given the less than clear backdrop of Cardiff City's finances.

Here's a question - if TG remained as the "owner" without investment from Vincent Tan, do you think Cardiff City would be as heavily in debt today?

You really have excelled yourself with this load of crap. Suffice to say it is Tans money and he can do with it what he likes. PS. TG didnt own the club as far as I am aware, he was a figurehead and the money was other peoples, mostly Vincent Tans. TG stepped aside when Tan became fully involved.

[Chris Pontprennau Blues]

The impression being given by the local media is that we won't have much of a budget and I think there is a feeling among some that the "miracle" which worked when we signed one of the division's best keepers for nothing on what I presume are low wages, signed a winger for nothing on similar wages who started and ended the season playing very well in a promotion team, signed an injured Scottish full back for nothing who ended up as our top league goalscorer and a French midfielder for nothing on the lowest wages for a senior player at the club, yet provided good cover and, occasionally, excellent performances, can be repeated.

I don't think it can and if we are going to only have the reported £20 million for transfers, then we are going to need there to be some really ropey teams in the Premier League if we are to stay up. £30 million doesn't buy you a great deal in the modern Premier League, while a £40 million budget is seen as quite modest. We can't say too much if Vincent Tan has decided that he wants to pocket all of the promotion money, because the man has kept the club afloat virtually single handedly throughout virtually all of this decade, but, if as I suspect, he's not going to do that, then I see no reason why we can't spend somewhere between those two figures to give us a reasonable chance of surviving - there'll still be more than £40 million left and that's before we even start thinking about parachute payments.

I agree Bob

[Eric Cartman]

We tried reckless spending last time - and look what happened.
Lets do it slightly different this time - else we could be back at square 1 - again....

This.

We a month on from the season and people have already forgotten what brought us promotion. Chucking money around might be exciting but it guarantees nothing.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

This.

We a month on from the season and people have already forgotten what brought us promotion. Chucking money around might be exciting but it guarantees nothing.

Spent wisely, it's the closest thing to a guarantee in football..

[Eric Cartman]

Spent wisely, it's the closest thing to a guarantee in football..

Well of course, because of hindsight. No one who got relegated ever 'spent wisely'.

We obviously need something a bit different in the middle of the park but I would be disappointed if we start next season with less than 8-9 of our current 'best XI' playing (accounting for injuries).

[the other bob wilson]

This.

We a month on from the season and people have already forgotten what brought us promotion. Chucking money around might be exciting but it guarantees nothing.

People are talking as if we only have two options, either rely on Bosmans, loans and Scottish League players or another 2013 style spending splurge. It feels like the discussion is being held in black and white terms, when the sum involved is so big that there is a huge amount of grey in the middle.