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Thread: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

  1. #1

    Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44704561

    Remember Farage saying that the fight would go on if the vote was 52/48 in favour of remain? I wonder what he and other leave voters would be saying about this news if the vote had gone 52/48 to Remain and the Electoral Commission's report had found that it had broken rules in the way it's alleged the Leave side did?

  2. #2

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Gove and Boris heavily involved in this, and yet the news is leaked on the morning after an England World Cup win. Normally Electoral Commission stuff is watertight. Is this a coincidence, that high ranking ministers are involved and the impact of the actual report has been softened with the leak?

    Must be a coincidence. Must be.

  3. #3
    ninianclark
    Guest

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-44704561

    Remember Farage saying that the fight would go on if the vote was 52/48 in favour of remain? I wonder what he and other leave voters would be saying about this news if the vote had gone 52/48 to Remain and the Electoral Commission's report had found that it had broken rules in the way it's alleged the Leave side did?
    They would be saying what Remainers are saying now.

    VoteLeave from what I read said "But the group's former chief executive claimed the Electoral Commission had not followed due process.

    Matthew Elliott has submitted a 500-page dossier to the Electoral Commission rebutting the claims.

    The commission said Vote Leave had taken the "unusual step" of going public having seen the draft report.

    According to Vote Leave's dossier, the commission finds the campaign group:

    made an inaccurate return of campaign expenditure
    is missing invoices and receipts
    failed to comply with a statutory notice
    exceeded its spending limit"

    The main issue seems to be the 2 groups were working too closely together as they had emailed each other

    What about all the 'individuals' and businesses that took their own adverts out in newspapers, and went on various TV debates, and attended meetings campaigned for both predominantly Remain. Was their spending controlled / restricted / monitored ?

    All this stuff seems to be the work of groups and individuals - Clegg, Blair, Mandelson etc that are determined to make it so complex the electorate give up. It happened in Denmark, Holland and Ireland and Norway when the EU didnt get the result it wanted - they asked them again after threatening to make things difficult etc.

    Too late to go back now, like telling your Mrs you dont love her, dont want to live with her anymore etc - and then go back a year later - saying sorry can we get back together.

    Simple really - we sell them things, they sell us things. Lets have some standards on things as well, even have an industrial currency for businesses to use. We'd just like to have a control on immigration, a sovereign Parliament, control our own fishing waters and be able to decide where else we buy and sell goods and services - like other non EU countries do. This is simple - yet for people that want 1 Europe, 1 Defence force, 1 currency and 1 sovereign parliament - with an un-elected commission - this seems impossible to grasp, oh and add in 4 new countries joining with unemployment rates approx 30% joining within 5 years.

    Brexit wont happen, it will be made so difficult that the only alternative will be to rejoin - and on much worse terms than when we left

  4. #4

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    Brexit wont happen, it will be made so difficult that the only alternative will be to rejoin - and on much worse terms than when we left
    If Brexit won't happen, how can we rejoin? We won't have left.

  5. #5

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post

    The main issue seems to be the 2 groups were working too closely together as they had emailed each other

    What about all the 'individuals' and businesses that took their own adverts out in newspapers, and went on various TV debates, and attended meetings campaigned for both predominantly Remain. Was their spending controlled / restricted / monitored ?
    As I understand it, the emails were evidence that Vote Leave had 'donated' the money but then told the group how they should be spending their money. One of them was asked if they could have done their own thing and replied "We didn’t ever feel like we had that level of control. That’s what I mean, we never felt like we had control over the organisation itself.”

    Individuals and businesses were not part of the official campaign. It's like saying should the Daily Mail and Express have been controlled, restricted and monitored.

  6. #6
    ninianclark
    Guest

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    As I understand it, the emails were evidence that Vote Leave had 'donated' the money but then told the group how they should be spending their money. One of them was asked if they could have done their own thing and replied "We didn’t ever feel like we had that level of control. That’s what I mean, we never felt like we had control over the organisation itself.”

    Individuals and businesses were not part of the official campaign. It's like saying should the Daily Mail and Express have been controlled, restricted and monitored.
    If that is the case the law is an ass then. The 2 official 'parties' had funds restricted to x amount - whilst at the same time 'big business' can throw money at a referendum decision, as much money as they want without restriction. I get your point - newspapers (I think) were equally split on it - with a few showing both sides of the debate.

    Here is Richard Branson starting his own vote Remain campaign (nb Branson is a tax exile , lives in the Virgin Islands)

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...tain-in-the-eu

    Then there is always Alan Milburn ex Labour MP - who works for both Branson and Blair and there is always the fact that Branson offered this group both money and office space - nothing to see there then obviously , Im sure there are many other incidents like this - on both sides.

  7. #7

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    If that is the case the law is an ass then. The 2 official 'parties' had funds restricted to x amount - whilst at the same time 'big business' can throw money at a referendum decision, as much money as they want without restriction. I get your point - newspapers (I think) were equally split on it - with a few showing both sides of the debate.

    Here is Richard Branson starting his own vote Remain campaign (nb Branson is a tax exile , lives in the Virgin Islands)

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...tain-in-the-eu

    Then there is always Alan Milburn ex Labour MP - who works for both Branson and Blair and there is always the fact that Branson offered this group both money and office space - nothing to see there then obviously , Im sure there are many other incidents like this - on both sides.
    I actually don't believe in a second referendum but the argument that 'well, remain were cheating too' makes me more likely to favour scrapping the result and doing the vote over again with tighter rules.

    It feels like the electoral commission may as well not exist, every time we go out to vote somebody breaks the rules and then we go through all this fuss to give them a tiny fine.

  8. #8
    ninianclark
    Guest

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    I think the problem is Eric that either everything is restricted or nothing is restricted. There is no point restricting the 2 official campaigns and then at the same time have Branson et al start up their own campaign and chuck a load of money at it and then having no restrictions on what they can do , say or spend. Same goes for all the other businesses that chucked money at advertising in favour of In or Out.

    If we accept the vote result - then leaving the EU means just that - leaving the single market and customs union. That is the starting position, anything else is then up for discussion, but being in 'the' single market and in 'the' customs union is not an option as that means you are 'in' the EU - which is not 'leaving' the EU.

    A conundrum indeed - like being a little bit pregnant

  9. #9

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    They would be saying what Remainers are saying now.

    VoteLeave from what I read said "But the group's former chief executive claimed the Electoral Commission had not followed due process.

    Matthew Elliott has submitted a 500-page dossier to the Electoral Commission rebutting the claims.

    The commission said Vote Leave had taken the "unusual step" of going public having seen the draft report.

    According to Vote Leave's dossier, the commission finds the campaign group:

    made an inaccurate return of campaign expenditure
    is missing invoices and receipts
    failed to comply with a statutory notice
    exceeded its spending limit"

    The main issue seems to be the 2 groups were working too closely together as they had emailed each other

    What about all the 'individuals' and businesses that took their own adverts out in newspapers, and went on various TV debates, and attended meetings campaigned for both predominantly Remain. Was their spending controlled / restricted / monitored ?

    All this stuff seems to be the work of groups and individuals - Clegg, Blair, Mandelson etc that are determined to make it so complex the electorate give up. It happened in Denmark, Holland and Ireland and Norway when the EU didnt get the result it wanted - they asked them again after threatening to make things difficult etc.

    Too late to go back now, like telling your Mrs you dont love her, dont want to live with her anymore etc - and then go back a year later - saying sorry can we get back together.

    Simple really - we sell them things, they sell us things. Lets have some standards on things as well, even have an industrial currency for businesses to use. We'd just like to have a control on immigration, a sovereign Parliament, control our own fishing waters and be able to decide where else we buy and sell goods and services - like other non EU countries do. This is simple - yet for people that want 1 Europe, 1 Defence force, 1 currency and 1 sovereign parliament - with an un-elected commission - this seems impossible to grasp, oh and add in 4 new countries joining with unemployment rates approx 30% joining within 5 years.

    Brexit wont happen, it will be made so difficult that the only alternative will be to rejoin - and on much worse terms than when we left
    Campaign expenditure from individuals and businesses was indeed monitored by the Electoral Commission if that expenditure was over 10k. Any party planning expenditure over that amount had to first register the intent with the Electoral Commission. If you were not a political party that participated in the previous General Election then campaign expenditure was capped at a maximum of 700k. This was all set out along with the rules in a guidance document. So not really a free for all. Presumably it is against this guidance that the reported breach by Vote Leave is being evaluated and applied.

    Contrary to your assertion, the Electoral Commission's records show a slightly greater total overall reported expenditure for Leave 16m, against 15m for Remain.

    The guidance and records of receipted expenditure are relatively easily sourced but copied here for ease.

    http://search.electoralcommission.or...tCols=DatePaid

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...ampaigners.pdf

  10. #10
    ninianclark
    Guest

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Campaign expenditure from individuals and businesses was indeed monitored by the Electoral Commission if that expenditure was over 10k. Any party planning expenditure over that amount had to first register the intent with the Electoral Commission. If you were not a political party that participated in the previous General Election then campaign expenditure was capped at a maximum of 700k. This was all set out along with the rules in a guidance document. So not really a free for all. Presumably it is against this guidance that the reported breach by Vote Leave is being evaluated and applied.

    Contrary to your assertion, the Electoral Commission's records show a slightly greater total overall reported expenditure for Leave 16m, against 15m for Remain.

    The guidance and records of receipted expenditure are relatively easily sourced but copied here for ease.

    http://search.electoralcommission.or...tCols=DatePaid

    http://www.electoralcommission.org.u...ampaigners.pdf
    How much was spent by various 3rd parties on Google Adwords re Leave / Remain, how much traffic was generated by twitter bots, advertising with Google Search partners like YouTube etc.

    There is lots of areas of the voting landscape that has changed that the electoral commission has no control over.

    Officially there was just about 10 main donors to the 2 sides , Lord Sainsbury (appointed Lord by Blair) donated 4.2 million according to the independent - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7348321.html

    Peter Hargreaves gave the out mob 3.2 million

    To me it is a much of a muchness, most people I know formed their opinion by watching the TV debates


    Here is a copy of the top 10

    David Sainsbury (Remain) 4,223,234

    Peter Hargreaves (Brexit) 3,200,000

    Better for the Country (Brexit) 2,060,375

    Jeremy Hosking (Brexit) 1,691,296

    Diana Van Nievelt Price (Brexit) 1,000,000

    Trailfinders Limited (Remain) 1,000,000

    David Harding (Remain) 1,000,000

    International Motors Ltd (Brexit) 850,000

    Mark Coombs (Remain) 750,000

    J C Bamford Excavators Ltd (Brexit) 670,000

  11. #11

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    How much was spent by various 3rd parties on Google Adwords re Leave / Remain, how much traffic was generated by twitter bots, advertising with Google Search partners like YouTube etc.

    There is lots of areas of the voting landscape that has changed that the electoral commission has no control over.

    Officially there was just about 10 main donors to the 2 sides , Lord Sainsbury (appointed Lord by Blair) donated 4.2 million according to the independent - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a7348321.html

    Peter Hargreaves gave the out mob 3.2 million

    To me it is a much of a muchness, most people I know formed their opinion by watching the TV debates


    Here is a copy of the top 10

    David Sainsbury (Remain) 4,223,234

    Peter Hargreaves (Brexit) 3,200,000

    Better for the Country (Brexit) 2,060,375

    Jeremy Hosking (Brexit) 1,691,296

    Diana Van Nievelt Price (Brexit) 1,000,000

    Trailfinders Limited (Remain) 1,000,000

    David Harding (Remain) 1,000,000

    International Motors Ltd (Brexit) 850,000

    Mark Coombs (Remain) 750,000

    J C Bamford Excavators Ltd (Brexit) 670,000
    Your original point seemed to be around individuals and businesses having unregulated ability to spend outwith the regulated campaigns. As pointed out that was not the case as they are covered by the rules.

    You now seem to be making a slightly different point about the concentration of donations that a few rich individuals made to the official campaigns or political parties which would have then been spent either legally or in the case of Vote Leave, a proportion allegedly illegally, in running those campaigns.

  12. #12

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    I do find all this amusing , as if anyone voting to leave would listen to this group anyway ,is perhaps fanciful at best , the anti foreigner , anti European ,or anti migrant or anti anything authoritative, had made their minds up without any help from anyone ,never mind some cocked right wing funded statement of group,hence the massive turnout .

    And then they voted left wing in the next election who were more supportive of staying put and opening ones borders , nutters.

  13. #13
    ninianclark
    Guest

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Your original point seemed to be around individuals and businesses having unregulated ability to spend outwith the regulated campaigns. As pointed out that was not the case as they are covered by the rules.

    You now seem to be making a slightly different point about the concentration of donations that a few rich individuals made to the official campaigns or political parties which would have then been spent either legally or in the case of Vote Leave, a proportion allegedly illegally, in running those campaigns.
    My only point being that in todays landscape of fake news, fake twitter bots, facebook stories that can be peddled by anyone - there is and was no control on Google Adwords (as far as I know), same as there is / was no control over FaceBook articles being shared and posted etc.

    All this is by the by (in my opinion) - as no matter how much each side spent officially or unofficially - most people I know made their mind up by listening to the radio or TV debates.

    In my opinion - it's yet another desperate attempt to reverse it. Something that I think will happen as those that wanted to remain seem to have forgotten democracy.

    on a side issue - I note that today Merkel it seems apparently that she has had her arm bent by Austria, Hungary and Italy and has given in re closing the southern European border route

  14. #14

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    on a side issue - I note that today Merkel it seems apparently that she has had her arm bent by Austria, Hungary and Italy and has given in re closing the southern European border route
    She's also just changed her mind on auto tarrifs. If the US are going to be calling the shots, wouldn't we be better off following them, rather than a weakened Merkel/EU? Trump is dismantling globalist ideology at a rapid pace, so what is the point even being in the EU anymore?

  15. #15

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    She's also just changed her mind on auto tarrifs. If the US are going to be calling the shots, wouldn't we be better off following them, rather than a weakened Merkel/EU? Trump is dismantling globalist ideology at a rapid pace, so what is the point even being in the EU anymore?
    When it comes to slavishly following the current US administration I would have you down as an early adopter!

  16. #16

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    When it comes to slavishly following the current US administration I would have you down as an early adopter!
    You know it makes sense, now is the time to leave the EU in our slipstream. We know which way the rest of world will be going.

  17. #17

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    You know it makes sense, now is the time to leave the EU in our slipstream. We know which way the rest of world will be going.
    We are out all this is tosh

  18. #18
    ninianclark
    Guest

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    You know it makes sense, now is the time to leave the EU in our slipstream. We know which way the rest of world will be going.
    The EU now realises (perhaps) that it needs to reform or die a slow death. if you asked the people of Europe do you want control of your borders like we had pre Maastricght - where if you wanted to go and live in Spain - you had to apply and get vetted. I think , most would say yes. If you asked them do you want to trade freely with each other using a given set of rules and standards - they'd say yes, and if you asked them do you really want to be run by an unelected commission - where the commissioners are appointed - they'd say no.

    If you are Italy or Greece - you wont be allowed to leave anyway. At the same time the EU want to allow 4 more NET gainers to join - meaning they get more out than they put in. I want an EU - I just dont want the EU we have or are going to have come 2020. But nowt will change in that area, so may as well enjoy the sunshine.

  19. #19

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I actually don't believe in a second referendum but the argument that 'well, remain were cheating too' makes me more likely to favour scrapping the result and doing the vote over again with tighter rules.

    It feels like the electoral commission may as well not exist, every time we go out to vote somebody breaks the rules and then we go through all this fuss to give them a tiny fine.
    Exactly, I'm just waiting for the message from him saying Corbyn, or possibly Welsh Labour, is to blame for it all.

  20. #20
    ninianclark
    Guest

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Exactly, I'm just waiting for the message from him saying Corbyn, or possibly Welsh Labour, is to blame for it all.
    Seeing as you mention it - how did you think Welsh Labour did on Referendum Campaign ? - they were woeful in getting their Remain message out there, Leanne Wood did try for Plaid but soon admitted it was a lost cause.

    Interesting also to watch this week last night, do you know what JC's opinion is re what he wants for the UK re Brexit , in or out of the customs union, in out or the single market etc. Labour dont have an opinion as such - they just react negatively to everything instead (as I suppose an opposition party usually does).

    ps - total electoral expenses in a social media age is impossible to keep hold of. When you have bot software chucking out tweets, re-spinning writing articles and then posting them automatically etc , if you have fake accounts Liking and sharing etc - political parties love it - it spreads the message with a minimal cost - unlike the good old days of a battle bus and soap box.

    No one dares mention the second referendum, as it's not exactly following democracy - hence there is desperate attempt after attempt to get it stopped, Gina Miller courts cases, House of Lords, Blair, Clegg, Mandelson et al all pulling their hair trying to find a way to stop it. Personally I think they will find a way, I also think that the next 10 days will make or break this Govt.

  21. #21

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Confirmation that Leave campaign(s) broke the law;-

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992

  22. #22

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Confirmation that Leave campaign(s) broke the law;-

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992
    Lets have a new referendum .

    I note there have been a number of electoral digressions and fines over the years , with regards to election law , from both main parties.

    https://www.politico.eu/article/260-cases-of-electoral-fraud-reported-in-uk-in-2016/

  23. #23

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Confirmation that Leave campaign(s) broke the law;-

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44856992
    Confirmation?

  24. #24

    Re: Vote Leave broke electoral law, Electoral Commission expected to say

    Quote Originally Posted by ninianclark View Post
    If we accept the vote result - then leaving the EU means just that - leaving the single market and customs union. That is the starting position, anything else is then up for discussion, but being in 'the' single market and in 'the' customs union is not an option as that means you are 'in' the EU - which is not 'leaving' the EU.
    I can guarantee that if the referendum 2 years ago had 2 options - remain or leave everything, EU, single market and customs union, remain would have won by several percent.

    The leave campaign wouldn't have allowed this. They needed as ambiguous as referendum as possible. Plenty voted to leave the EU but only if we were staying in the single market.

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