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Thread: See, this what I don't get.

  1. #1

    See, this what I don't get.

    We are told that Donald Trump and Jeremy Corbyn are, essentially, on the same side in the big battle that is being fought at the moment in these days where there is no such thing as left and right any more - that is, between an "establishment", an "elite" which is controlled by neoliberals and corporate interests, designed to further the cause of globalisation and, well, anyone who isn't in that elite.

    Presumably, Bernie Sanders, the man who contested the Democratic Presidential candidacy with the dreaded Hilary Clinton in 2016, is on the side of the "rest" in this fight - he seems to tick all of the boxes when it comes to being anti establishment after all.

    Yet, to read this piece,

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...gressive-front

    it would appear that Mr Sanders, while no fan of the neo liberal elite, sees the main enemy as being the very people whose cause is espoused on here by Trump, and Putin, loyalists. I read what Mr Sanders had to say and thought he got it spot on - I suppose I must be missing something.

  2. #2

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    We are told that Donald Trump and Jeremy Corbyn are, essentially, on the same side in the big battle that is being fought at the moment in these days where there is no such thing as left and right any more - that is, between an "establishment", an "elite" which is controlled by neoliberals and corporate interests, designed to further the cause of globalisation and, well, anyone who isn't in that elite.

    Presumably, Bernie Sanders, the man who contested the Democratic Presidential candidacy with the dreaded Hilary Clinton in 2016, is on the side of the "rest" in this fight - he seems to tick all of the boxes when it comes to being anti establishment after all.

    Yet, to read this piece,

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...gressive-front

    it would appear that Mr Sanders, while no fan of the neo liberal elite, sees the main enemy as being the very people whose cause is espoused on here by Trump, and Putin, loyalists. I read what Mr Sanders had to say and thought he got it spot on - I suppose I must be missing something.
    I thought it was spot on too.

    Can't help wondering where we would be now if he had beaten Hilary

  3. #3

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    We need to know what the last lot were up to before we go around sticking labels on people.

  4. #4

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Veg1960 View Post
    I thought it was spot on too.

    Can't help wondering where we would be now if he had beaten Hilary
    They prevented from from doing that, isn't that just a little bit authoritarian?

  5. #5

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    They prevented from from doing that, isn't that just a little bit authoritarian?
    ^^^ the Democratic Party stopped any chance of Bernie winning.

  6. #6

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    ^^^ the Democratic Party stopped any chance of Bernie winning.
    Yes.

    They were far more successful in nobbling Sanders than the republicans were in their attempts to ditch Trump.

  7. #7

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    We need to know what the last lot were up to before we go around sticking labels on people.
    I'm only passing on what Mr Sanders says. You appear to have him marked as an "outsider", along with the likes of Corbyn and Trump, but it seems he has a problem with being linked in any way with Trump - he appears to see the President as the problem.

  8. #8

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I'm only passing on what Mr Sanders says. You appear to have him marked as an "outsider", along with the likes of Corbyn and Trump, but it seems he has a problem with being linked in any way with Trump - he appears to see the President as the problem.
    He would because they have different political views, but they were both hampered by the same "machine". It would be in Bernie's interests if all wrongdoing was exposed, and he started over again.

  9. #9

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    He would because they have different political views, but they were both hampered by the same "machine". It would be in Bernie's interests if all wrongdoing was exposed, and he started over again.
    Or he recognises Trump and Putin for what they are.

  10. #10

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    I would say his biggest beef is with the financiers of the world ,which puts him at odds with both his democrat party and that of Trumps .

  11. #11

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Or he recognises Trump and Putin for what they are.
    Bernie's problems started long before Trump came on the scene. People are saying these shenanigans have been going on for at least 10-20 years. It's only because of an accidental president that things are now coming to light.

  12. #12

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Bernie's problems started long before Trump came on the scene. People are saying these shenanigans have been going on for at least 10-20 years. It's only because of an accidental president that things are now coming to light.
    So what you seem to be saying is you know better than the man himself when it comes to why Bernie Sanders writes articles like that one? Fair enough.

    As for Trump and what Sanders calls a "network of multi-billionaire oligarchs who see the world as their economic plaything", what's that they say about "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."?

  13. #13

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    So what you seem to be saying is you know better than the man himself when it comes to why Bernie Sanders writes articles like that one? Fair enough.

    As for Trump and what Sanders calls a "network of multi-billionaire oligarchs who see the world as their economic plaything", what's that they say about "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck."?
    Sanders is a rich man himself, and he is only saying what he has to say politically. Would you honestly expect him to say anything different?

  14. #14

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    You're getting desperate now in your efforts to find something in that article which justifies your completely biased viewpoint. For me;-


    "Those of us who believe in democracy, who believe that a government must be accountable to its people, must understand the scope of this challenge if we are to effectively confront it.

    It should be clear by now that Donald Trump and the rightwing movement that supports him is not a phenomenon unique to the United States. All around the world, in Europe, in Russia, in the Middle East, in Asia and elsewhere we are seeing movements led by demagogues who exploit people’s fears, prejudices and grievances to achieve and hold on to power.

    This trend certainly did not begin with Trump, but there’s no question that authoritarian leaders around the world have drawn inspiration from the fact that the leader of the world’s oldest and most powerful democracy seems to delight in shattering democratic norms."

    seems pretty transparent.

  15. #15

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    You're getting desperate now in your efforts to find something in that article which justifies your completely biased viewpoint. For me;-


    "Those of us who believe in democracy, who believe that a government must be accountable to its people, must understand the scope of this challenge if we are to effectively confront it.

    It should be clear by now that Donald Trump and the rightwing movement that supports him is not a phenomenon unique to the United States. All around the world, in Europe, in Russia, in the Middle East, in Asia and elsewhere we are seeing movements led by demagogues who exploit people’s fears, prejudices and grievances to achieve and hold on to power.

    This trend certainly did not begin with Trump, but there’s no question that authoritarian leaders around the world have drawn inspiration from the fact that the leader of the world’s oldest and most powerful democracy seems to delight in shattering democratic norms."

    seems pretty transparent.
    Do you honestly believe that? Trump is actually trying to oppose the banana republic tactics where one side stops the other from gaining power by spying on them, spreading propaganda, etc. The Democrats were using the power of the state to stop him becoming president. Do you think democracy consists of open borders, moving jobs and factories abroad, etc? The people have spoken democratically through the ballet box to put an end to it - it is called the will of the people. You seem to be morphing into lardy with your radical left viewpoints. My only concern is the rule of law, and that the people who do this kind of thing are punished. If America turns into a police state we will be next!

  16. #16

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Is democracy any better than having the elite run a country? We all know where populism can lead and the fact that those who have the vote don't necessarily know a thing about what they are voting for. You only need to see the vox pop interviews on the street by TV companies to realise the shortcoming in a democracy.

  17. #17

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Is democracy any better than having the elite run a country? We all know where populism can lead and the fact that those who have the vote don't necessarily know a thing about what they are voting for. You only need to see the vox pop interviews on the street by TV companies to realise the shortcoming in a democracy.
    The elite run countries for their own benefit. There are plenty of people amongst the "populist" classes who are well educated and experts in their fields. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other, so I don't think we should be rushing to your solution of ending democracy just yet! The yanks voted for "populist" policies, and they are reaping the rewards of an economic upturn, while the prior administration were focussed on rewarding themselves via all of their dodgy foundations.

  18. #18

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Is democracy any better than having the elite run a country? We all know where populism can lead and the fact that those who have the vote don't necessarily know a thing about what they are voting for. You only need to see the vox pop interviews on the street by TV companies to realise the shortcoming in a democracy.
    Or the Brexit vote ?

  19. #19

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    The elite run countries for their own benefit. There are plenty of people amongst the "populist" classes who are well educated and experts in their fields. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other, so I don't think we should be rushing to your solution of ending democracy just yet! The yanks voted for "populist" policies, and they are reaping the rewards of an economic upturn, while the prior administration were focussed on rewarding themselves via all of their dodgy foundations.
    I would wait a while until we all give Trump a pat on the back. It takes a while for any changes to an economy to take effect and, for a while, some regimes merely reap what the previous regime sowed. The long term effects of Trump are yet to be experienced.

  20. #20

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    I think Bernie suggested in that piece that behind the scenes the big hitters in the US, Russia, China and elsewhere are, contrary to the theatre, playing for the same team who are dedicated to widen inequality yet further to enrich themselves and their highly connected chums. He deserves credit for having a dig at Israel's divisive home policy. As he's one of God's chosen people there's no chance of him being called an anti-Semite for doing so. He also had another more subtle go at the same crowd with his remarks about who controls the media, but swerved any mention of where their greatest power and influence resides.

  21. #21

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Do you honestly believe that? Trump is actually trying to oppose the banana republic tactics where one side stops the other from gaining power by spying on them, spreading propaganda, etc. The Democrats were using the power of the state to stop him becoming president. Do you think democracy consists of open borders, moving jobs and factories abroad, etc? The people have spoken democratically through the ballet box to put an end to it - it is called the will of the people. You seem to be morphing into lardy with your radical left viewpoints. My only concern is the rule of law, and that the people who do this kind of thing are punished. If America turns into a police state we will be next!
    Er, all I'm doing is using Bernie Sanders' words, they're not mine. The point I'm trying to make in this thread is that you have often tried to present a case for people like Sanders and Corbyn, essentially, being on the same side as the likes of Trump and Putin in that they are all "outsiders" to the liberal progressive "elite" as represented by the likes of the Clintons and Obama.

    Sanders may be outside of the Clinton/Obama axis, but, demonstrably from his own words in that article, he sees Trump and Putin as people he would never ally with - indeed, it would appear that he sees them as much, if not more of, a part of the problem than your liberal elite.

    Throughout this thread, your reaction to what Sanders wrote has been "he doesn't really mean that because I know what he is really about" - that just seems very arrogant to me.

    Well done on Trump the anti banana republic candidate as well, hilarious .

  22. #22

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Well done on Trump the anti banana republic candidate as well, hilarious .
    There's a reason for that. The tactic is to accuse the opposition of what you're being accused of.

    When trump did his tweets about how sessions should not have pursued republicans on criminal charges with elections coming up, some senators said he was treating the US as a banana republic. So it was only a matter of time before the phrase cropped up in this manner.

  23. #23

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    There's a reason for that. The tactic is to accuse the opposition of what you're being accused of.

    When trump did his tweets about how sessions should not have pursued republicans on criminal charges with elections coming up, some senators said he was treating the US as a banana republic. So it was only a matter of time before the phrase cropped up in this manner.
    Clever stuff , thankfully it doesn't happen here ,does it Boris?

  24. #24

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    The elite run countries for their own benefit. There are plenty of people amongst the "populist" classes who are well educated and experts in their fields. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other, so I don't think we should be rushing to your solution of ending democracy just yet! The yanks voted for "populist" policies, and they are reaping the rewards of an economic upturn, while the prior administration were focussed on rewarding themselves via all of their dodgy foundations.
    I asked a question to stimulate debate. It wasn't my 'solution', as you put it.

  25. #25

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Clever stuff , thankfully it doesn't happen here ,does it Boris?
    What are you thinking of?

  26. #26

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    There's a reason for that. The tactic is to accuse the opposition of what you're being accused of.

    When trump did his tweets about how sessions should not have pursued republicans on criminal charges with elections coming up, some senators said he was treating the US as a banana republic. So it was only a matter of time before the phrase cropped up in this manner.
    The DOJ have a 60-day rule to suspend any activity regarding political fibers prior to an election.

  27. #27

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Er, all I'm doing is using Bernie Sanders' words, they're not mine. The point I'm trying to make in this thread is that you have often tried to present a case for people like Sanders and Corbyn, essentially, being on the same side as the likes of Trump and Putin in that they are all "outsiders" to the liberal progressive "elite" as represented by the likes of the Clintons and Obama.

    Sanders may be outside of the Clinton/Obama axis, but, demonstrably from his own words in that article, he sees Trump and Putin as people he would never ally with - indeed, it would appear that he sees them as much, if not more of, a part of the problem than your liberal elite.

    Throughout this thread, your reaction to what Sanders wrote has been "he doesn't really mean that because I know what he is really about" - that just seems very arrogant to me.

    Well done on Trump the anti banana republic candidate as well, hilarious .
    Firstly Senator Sanders owns three homes, so he's not the most qualified to speak about the 1%. Secondly, he took no action when it emerged the Hillary campaign had rigged the primaries. In fact, he allowed them to take control of his supporters via the DNC, and he even endorsed Hillary. What the political system needs is sunlight and transparency, on both the left and the right, and people who are prepared to challenge the status quo. It's pretty obvious that wasn't part of Sanders political agenda.

  28. #28

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    The DOJ have a 60-day rule to suspend any activity regarding political fibers prior to an election.
    That would be figures, not fibbers, and no it wasn't a freudian slip!

  29. #29

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Firstly Senator Sanders owns three homes, so he's not the most qualified to speak about the 1%. Secondly, he took no action when it emerged the Hillary campaign had rigged the primaries. In fact, he allowed them to take control of his supporters via the DNC, and he even endorsed Hillary. What the political system needs is sunlight and transparency, on both the left and the right, and people who are prepared to challenge the status quo. It's pretty obvious that wasn't part of Sanders political agenda.
    So Sanders was a maintain the status quo candidate because he has three houses and he must be an "elite" because he didn't do this and that to stop Clinton - what was the point of him running against her then if that was the case? Strange how having enough money to own three homes somehow disqualifies Sanders (net worth $460k in 2012) from being the candidate of the working man/woman and yet your boy (net worth $3.5 billion in 2017), the man who is, allegedly, "draining the swamp" and who says it's "smart" not to pay taxes is ideally qualified to do so, if you are to be believed anyway.

    You've been all around the houses in this thread without coming close to addressing the points I made in the OP, so I'll take my leave from it now because there doesn't seem to be any point in continuing against your "on the fence" opinions.

  30. #30

    Re: See, this what I don't get.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    So Sanders was a maintain the status quo candidate because he has three houses and he must be an "elite" because he didn't do this and that to stop Clinton - what was the point of him running against her then if that was the case? Strange how having enough money to own three homes somehow disqualifies Sanders (net worth $460k in 2012) from being the candidate of the working man/woman and yet your boy (net worth $3.5 billion in 2017), the man who is, allegedly, "draining the swamp" and who says it's "smart" not to pay taxes is ideally qualified to do so, if you are to be believed anyway.

    You've been all around the houses in this thread without coming close to addressing the points I made in the OP, so I'll take my leave from it now because there doesn't seem to be any point in continuing against your "on the fence" opinions.
    Trump donates all of his presidential salary to charity, he's not a career politician with a lifestyle that is beyond his paygrade, he made his money elsewhere. All I am saying is if Sanders was serious about being president, he wouldn't have given Hillary a free pass after she nobbled him.

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