Bobby Reid and Danny Ward

[Croesy Blue]

How can anyone call Ward shite?! He’s been one of our best performers over the last few weeks.

I’d have him over zohore every day of the week.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Yes, we had like 19 shots to their 3 or something daft like that.
Burnley have a track record of getting results like this from games they don't really deserve anything from, but if we play like that we will at least have a chance of winning a few games.

If we defend like that, we'll get zero points. Morrison needs to stop taking throw ins, they're dangerous but he's out of position. That defeat is really going to hurt but we've got to get Camarasa and Arter on the ball as much as possible, and get Murphy running at people. If we're to get anything, those three need to play well. I was defending Manga at right back earlier this season but his distribution really is shocking, I'd play Richards, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Manga play inside instead of Bamba. There's something not right in midfield too but we've known that for 5 seasons.

Re Croesy, I agree. He's one of the few that can say they're playing at least to their potential. He worked his socks off at Chelsea and the ball actually stuck to him allowing others to play off him.

[Malckent]

I think reid would have had a field day against Burnley.

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

I think reid would have had a field day against Burnley.

Me too.

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

Miserable sod seems more appropriate. Luckily the fans at the games are far more supportive.

It’s like a gathering of manic depressives on here at the moment. We were never going to be able to change the whole squad in a few weeks and it was clear we’d struggle in places.

It’s at moments like this that you find out whether you are a supporter or not. Constructive criticism is fine. Expecting us to play like Man City is not.

Where are you getting that from? I've not seen or heard anyone say we should be playing like Man City. Things are obviously not going well, inevitably that will be open for discussion on here, that's what a messageboard is for. Being critical of the way things are doesn't make you less of a supporter.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Where are you getting that from? I've not seen or heard anyone say we should be playing like Man City. Things are obviously not going well, inevitably that will be open for discussion on here, that's what a messageboard is for. Being critical of the way things are doesn't make you less of a supporter.

I don't disagree, providing you're not attacking the players (and I'm not saying you are). As long as the fans stick with the players on the pitch, we can whine on here. While we should probably have spent a bit more, we can't for 3 months, so we'd got to try and find a way to make a fist of it. What's most concerning is our back 4. I don't think too many people would have been crying out for us to improve them and they're not playing well, at all. We'd have seen that game out last season.

[Stavross1927]

Has Madine ever had a good game for us? Was he really a goalscorer at Bolton, or is it something I have dreamt about?

Set up the equaliser for Pilkington at Sheff Utd and changed the game at Ipswich. But I don’t think he’s up Premier League standard albeit he’s only had limited opportunities to show anything.

I thought Zahore was poor again yesterday, I can’t believe for a bloke of his size, how easy he gets knocked off the ball. Might be his languid style but he doesn’t look like his heart is in it this season for whatever reason, can’t be that he still lacks fitness after missing a chunk of pre season.

I would give Danny Ward a good run in the team and then either bring Bobby Reid back in or move Camarasa inside to get him on the ball more.

[NYCBlue]

Miserable sod seems more appropriate. Luckily the fans at the games are far more supportive.

It’s like a gathering of manic depressives on here at the moment. We were never going to be able to change the whole squad in a few weeks and it was clear we’d struggle in places.

It’s at moments like this that you find out whether you are a supporter or not. Constructive criticism is fine. Expecting us to play like Man City is not.

There's not a single person on here that expects that. Keep calm and carry on clapping.

[SunderlandBluebird]

Runs the channels, holds the ball up well and is the only one of our strikers to score this season? He's looked a damn sight better than Zohore and Madine.

We must have vastly different opinions on what we want from a striker. But runs the channels and holds the ball up well, don't make me laugh. The guy has played the majority of his career in the lower leagues and averages a goal every 6 games. Once again fans concentrate on the positives from Ward and the negatives from Zohore. Ward barely touched it in 25 mins yesterday, but no one mentions that as he runs around a bit.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

We must have vastly different opinions on what we want from a striker. But runs the channels and holds the ball up well, don't make me laugh. The guy has played the majority of his career in the lower leagues and averages a goal every 6 games. Once again fans concentrate on the positives from Ward and the negatives from Zohore. Ward barely touched it in 25 mins yesterday, but no one mentions that as he runs around a bit.

What the hell do you want him to do? Beat four men and pop one in the top bin every week? We're sailing the ball 40 yards over his head and that's his fault? His job in our team is to try and get hold of the thing and bring others into play. Zohore has been absolutely horrific this season, Ward has scored and hasn't played too badly. Is Ward the answer? Probably not. Is Ward playing better than Zohore on the form of the last 12 months? Absolutely.

He's ran the channels, something Zohore doesn't do. He tries to hold the ball up, it just bounces off Zohore. He's at least trying and as Warnock has intimated, I'm not sure Zohore is. Zohore has been poor for about a year, he's not pulled his finger out since that Brighton bid. Yesterday was the first goal we've scored when he's been on the pitch and he had zero to do with it.

Eg this goal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZtMlkE5xuk. Zohore doesn't win the free kick here. And Zohore doesn't score Ward's header.

I've tried to defend Zohore, and on form he's a better player than Ward will ever be, but he's not shown anything like what he's capable of in a year and we can't just keep blindly hoping he clicks. He's had enough chances now.

[SunderlandBluebird]

What the hell do you want him to do? Beat four men and pop one in the top bin every week? We're sailing the ball 40 yards over his head and that's his fault? His job in our team is to try and get hold of the thing and bring others into play. Zohore has been absolutely horrific this season, Ward has scored and hasn't played too badly. Is Ward the answer? Probably not. Is Ward playing better than Zohore on the form of the last 12 months? Absolutely.

He's ran the channels, something Zohore doesn't do. He tries to hold the ball up, it just bounces off Zohore. He's at least trying and as Warnock has intimated, I'm not sure Zohore is. Zohore has been poor for about a year, he's not pulled his finger out since that Brighton bid. Yesterday was the first goal we've scored when he's been on the pitch and he had zero to do with it.

Eg this goal https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZtMlkE5xuk. Zohore doesn't win the free kick here. And Zohore doesn't score Ward's header.

I've tried to defend Zohore, and on form he's a better player than Ward will ever be, but he's not shown anything like what he's capable of in a year and we can't just keep blindly hoping he clicks. He's had enough chances now.

The first bit sounds like what people feel Zohore should be doing. We whack the ball over Zohore's head, yet people think he should be this battering ram centre forward just because he's a big lad. Get it into the channels for him, get the ball to feet. I'm not going to claim Zohore has been as good as last season as he's clearly lacking confidence (and I don't blame him as the fans have been embarrassing with him this season) but he's ten times the player Ward is.

Did ward run the channels and hold the ball up yesterday? 25 mins on the pitch and we didn't create once chance and he barely touched it. All our chances were before Zohore went off. As soon as Ward and Madine came on up top I don't think Hart touched the ball bar the odd goal kick.

The abuse and accusations of being lazy have come from the fact he doesn't press from the front and sprint around aimlessly to put a tiny bit of pressure on a keeper that comfortably clears it. Fans were doing it last season groaning when he didn't do it, but it's laughable because he's a 6ft+ unit that will just tire easily. The amount of times he had to do it last season and then he was visibly ****ed come the times he actually got the ball was hugely frustrating. Never mind fans singing Danny Ward's name when Zohore was working his bollocks off as we struggled towards the end of the season.

People just expect too much of him, he's playing his first season in the PL, has had 3-4 games and apparently he's shit, can't be arsed, lazy and a waste of space yet 12 months ago he was brilliant. Our fans are quick to accept the praise for continuing to sing allez allez allez at 5-0 down to Man City but the reality is they've massively contributed towards the lack of confidence our best striker has.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

It's not our fans slating Zohore. Bellamy and Warnock have publicly come out and hammered him. He's not trying, they've said so. Warnock has been publicly saying things for a year about how he's got to "get Zohore's hunger back". He wasn't good last season, he's not been the same player as when Warnock first came in. He's got it in him, but bar the first 5 or so games last season where he set the tone for how we'd play, we've not seen anything like what he's capable of since 2016/17. We've all seen what he can do, and he's not doing it. That's why Ward is getting more leeway that Zohore. Ward is doing his best, Zohore isn't. He was better than usual yesterday but that's not saying much.

Ward has been far, far better than Zohore who's frankly been embarrassing at times. He's got the potential to be our saviour but he's running out of chances and we're running out of time.

[SunderlandBluebird]

It's not our fans slating Zohore. Bellamy and Warnock have publicly come out and hammered him. He's not trying, they've said so. Warnock has been publicly saying things for a year about how he's got to "get Zohore's hunger back". He wasn't good last season, he's not been the same player as when Warnock first came in. He's got it in him, but bar the first 5 or so games last season where he set the tone for how we'd play, we've not seen anything like what he's capable of since 2016/17. We've all seen what he can do, and he's not doing it. That's why Ward is getting more leeway that Zohore. Ward is doing his best, Zohore isn't. He was better than usual yesterday but that's not saying much.

Ward has been far, far better than Zohore who's frankly been embarrassing at times. He's got the potential to be our saviour but he's running out of chances and we're running out of time.

Will have to disagree with you. Zohore was fine for large spells last season, you're just rewriting history now to fit your agenda. He struggled for a period towards the end but that's when we gave up on playing football in a bit to scrape out result after result.

Danny Ward is shite and shouldn't be anywhere near a PL side, along with madine. Zohore is struggling at the moment but has the ability to be a PL striker. If he was somewhere like Watford where they actually try and play football he'd be fine, Ward wouldn't.

[DubaiDai]

The first bit sounds like what people feel Zohore should be doing. We whack the ball over Zohore's head, yet people think he should be this battering ram centre forward just because he's a big lad. Get it into the channels for him, get the ball to feet. I'm not going to claim Zohore has been as good as last season as he's clearly lacking confidence (and I don't blame him as the fans have been embarrassing with him this season) but he's ten times the player Ward is.

Did ward run the channels and hold the ball up yesterday? 25 mins on the pitch and we didn't create once chance and he barely touched it. All our chances were before Zohore went off. As soon as Ward and Madine came on up top I don't think Hart touched the ball bar the odd goal kick.

The abuse and accusations of being lazy have come from the fact he doesn't press from the front and sprint around aimlessly to put a tiny bit of pressure on a keeper that comfortably clears it. Fans were doing it last season groaning when he didn't do it, but it's laughable because he's a 6ft+ unit that will just tire easily. The amount of times he had to do it last season and then he was visibly ****ed come the times he actually got the ball was hugely frustrating. Never mind fans singing Danny Ward's name when Zohore was working his bollocks off as we struggled towards the end of the season.

People just expect too much of him, he's playing his first season in the PL, has had 3-4 games and apparently he's shit, can't be arsed, lazy and a waste of space yet 12 months ago he was brilliant. Our fans are quick to accept the praise for continuing to sing allez allez allez at 5-0 down to Man City but the reality is they've massively contributed towards the lack of confidence our best striker has.

Virtually all our players are playing their first season in the PL.
You seem to conveniently forget that he had a poor season in the championship last year, playing for a promoted team.!!!!

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Will have to disagree with you. Zohore was fine for large spells last season, you're just rewriting history now to fit your agenda. He struggled for a period towards the end but that's when we gave up on playing football in a bit to scrape out result after result.

Danny Ward is shite and shouldn't be anywhere near a PL side, along with madine. Zohore is struggling at the moment but has the ability to be a PL striker. If he was somewhere like Watford where they actually try and play football he'd be fine, Ward wouldn't.

He scored 9 goals last season, you're the one rewriting history to suit your agenda. Zohore isn't playing like he's capable of, maybe his 2016/17 form was a freak. Warnock is saying it, Bellamy is saying it, most of the posters on here are saying it but I presume you know better.

[liono158]

Ward is bang average but runs around like a headless chicken which people confuse with being ‘effective’. Zohore is big and very talented but has a languid style which people confuse for ‘lazy’.

It reminds be of Bothroyd - one of our most talented players yet ‘fans’ constantly slagging him off because he didn’t gas himself chasing aimless shit. He proved them all wrong and hopefully Ken will too.

Ward better than Ken? You are having a laugh.

[surge]

Ward is bang average but runs around like a headless chicken which people confuse with being ‘effective’. Zohore is big and very talented but has a languid style which people confuse for ‘lazy’.

It reminds be of Bothroyd - one of our most talented players yet ‘fans’ constantly slagging him off because he didn’t gas himself chasing aimless shit. He proved them all wrong and hopefully Ken will too.

Ward better than Ken? You are having a laugh.

Ward's first half was praised against Chelsea and he did well enough against Arsenal. Think he won a corner yesterday by running with purpose (as he usually does) but thoughts by some of the pundits on Walesonline see us as our most competitive when Zohore is playing well, which he does need to do a lot more often, and I think that's a fair shout.

Lots of players have done well in patches but need to find more throughout the game. Patterson looked out of it in the first game when expected to be a 10, did ok as a Crouch like player to cause chaos and won header after header yesterday....but still needs to find more guile when attacking the ball to get it on target. He's one of many who needs to find that little bit more and quickly.

We're not far off but winnable games are few and far between. Fans have held the early season together but we need to see a bit more now.

[SunderlandBluebird]

He scored 9 goals last season, you're the one rewriting history to suit your agenda. Zohore isn't playing like he's capable of, maybe his 2016/17 form was a freak. Warnock is saying it, Bellamy is saying it, most of the posters on here are saying it but I presume you know better.

I literally said above that he's not playing as he's capable of. I also said that's partly down to the fans and I stick by that. They were on his back from day 1 this season.

I personally think he's carrying an injury after missing Bournemouth but that won't suit the narrative that he's lazy, shit and a waste of space.

[Lawnmower]

With Paterson winning balls in the air yesterday I wondered yesterday whether he and a mobile Reid would be worth a try.

This was my thoughts too.

Danny Gabbidon also suggested playing Murphy up front as an option

[Lawnmower]

I think it sums up our problems that it’s hard to find 2 fans who’d pick the same side at the moment.

[the other bob wilson]

I think the fans have gone over the top regarding Zohore this season - there are plenty of other reasons why we are where we are. However, before I heard anybody mention about him looking like he was carrying a few extra pounds, that was exactly what I thought when I first saw him warming up before he came on against Betis.

I'd give Zohore a six or seven out of a ten for last season compared to a seven or eight in 16/17. Even allowing for the time he spent out injured last season, his goalscoring return was a disappointment, with the number of air shots or miskicks he had in moves someone else scored from possibly indicating a lack of confidence in front of goal , but I also remember games like Wolves away and Middlesbrough at home where he dominated very good Championship level defenders.

I believe he became a father for the first time in the summer, so there has to be a possibility that his priorities in life have changed a bit and his on pitch displays and demeanour are reflecting that, but something is missing with him this season.

Someone mentioned Jay Bothroyd and I always remember that quote from Dave Jones I think it was saying that he was a "high maintenance" player - I reckon Zohore may well be the same but for different reasons because, mentally, he seems to be someone who it takes a lot of time and effort to draw optimum performances from.

Potentially, Zohore is the best leader of an attack we have by some distance, but we've seen little or no evidence of that so far this season and, in a team in a losing habit, you cannot just keep on picking him continuously in the hope that this may be the week when he shows what he is capable of - although I'm not sure games against Spurs and Fulham are ideal ones to try it, I like the idea of giving Murphy a go up there and, in the home game in particular, I'd be inclined to use Reid in support of him.

[Penarth Blues]

I think the fans have gone over the top regarding Zohore this season - there are plenty of other reasons why we are where we are. However, before I heard anybody mention about him looking like he was carrying a few extra pounds, that was exactly what I thought when I first saw him warming up before he came on against Betis.

I'd give Zohore a six or seven out of a ten for last season compared to a seven or eight in 16/17. Even allowing for the time he spent out injured last season, his goalscoring return was a disappointment, with the number of air shots or miskicks he had in moves someone else scored from possibly indicating a lack of confidence in front of goal , but I also remember games like Wolves away and Middlesbrough at home where he dominated very good Championship level defenders.

I believe he became a father for the first time in the summer, so there has to be a possibility that his priorities in life have changed a bit and his on pitch displays and demeanour are reflecting that, but something is missing with him this season.

Someone mentioned Jay Bothroyd and I always remember that quote from Dave Jones I think it was saying that he was a "high maintenance" player - I reckon Zohore may well be the same but for different reasons because, mentally, he seems to be someone who it takes a lot of time and effort to draw optimum performances from.

Potentially, Zohore is the best leader of an attack we have by some distance, but we've seen little or no evidence of that so far this season and, in a team in a losing habit, you cannot just keep on picking him continuously in the hope that this may be the week when he shows what he is capable of - although I'm not sure games against Spurs and Fulham are ideal ones to try it, I like the idea of giving Murphy a go up there and, in the home game in particular, I'd be inclined to use Reid in support of him.

I read somewhere that Paterson equalled the Prem record in terms of headers won in the Burnley game. I think his contribution on Sunday is being hugely underrated as the accepted wisdom is that we've got better players in the positions he might occupy.

We have to play those players who are able to keep us on the front foot in games and most of our best chances came from balls that Paterson won.

My preference for Saturday would be to start Ralls, Arter and Camarasa in midfield with Murphy, Paterson and Zohore starting up front again. If Zohore can't make an impact in the first 45 then he should be hooked at half-time for Reid to play for the flick ons from Paterson instead.

My worry is that Reid is skilful but lightweight and doesn't have the power needed to impose himself at this level.

As for Murphy he is clearly most dangerous for us when playing on the wing and cutting inside. If we use him as the focus of attack we are going to lose our most creative player. I don't think he should be asked to play with his back to goal either.

[jamieccfc]

It’s great that he wins all these headers but where are they going?

[Tuerto]

The first bit sounds like what people feel Zohore should be doing. We whack the ball over Zohore's head, yet people think he should be this battering ram centre forward just because he's a big lad. Get it into the channels for him, get the ball to feet. I'm not going to claim Zohore has been as good as last season as he's clearly lacking confidence (and I don't blame him as the fans have been embarrassing with him this season) but he's ten times the player Ward is.

Did ward run the channels and hold the ball up yesterday? 25 mins on the pitch and we didn't create once chance and he barely touched it. All our chances were before Zohore went off. As soon as Ward and Madine came on up top I don't think Hart touched the ball bar the odd goal kick.

The abuse and accusations of being lazy have come from the fact he doesn't press from the front and sprint around aimlessly to put a tiny bit of pressure on a keeper that comfortably clears it. Fans were doing it last season groaning when he didn't do it, but it's laughable because he's a 6ft+ unit that will just tire easily. The amount of times he had to do it last season and then he was visibly ****ed come the times he actually got the ball was hugely frustrating. Never mind fans singing Danny Ward's name when Zohore was working his bollocks off as we struggled towards the end of the season.

People just expect too much of him, he's playing his first season in the PL, has had 3-4 games and apparently he's shit, can't be arsed, lazy and a waste of space yet 12 months ago he was brilliant. Our fans are quick to accept the praise for continuing to sing allez allez allez at 5-0 down to Man City but the reality is they've massively contributed towards the lack of confidence our best striker has.

I think that Ward gets more appreciation because of his perceived work rate. Football fans are a bit thick sometimes, and don't really understand that Ward making six aimless runs maybe easier for him than Ken making four, due to different reasons-So, who is working harder?

As for Ken, There's a problem with him. He looks slow and tired, almost devoid of energy and bounce. He's feeding off scraps, Actually, scraps would equate to a banquet at the moment, and when he does receive those scraps, they're often chewy and inedible such is the lack of quality in service. So he's not getting the service he requires or the support, then it's time for Ken to control the things that he can influence, like holding the ball up well, making himself available, making sure he draws fouls and is a general nuisance or presence. That's my worry, he's not really doing any of those things, to put it simply, I don't think he's turning up, for whatever reason.

I like Ken, he's one of my favourite players. During Warnocks first season I can honestly say that I felt as much satisfaction in the resurgence of Ken, as I did with the promotion. Written off and an after thought, it was lovely to see him emerge and watch him develop, and the look on his face when the fans first sung his name- in the words of Al Murray 'It was a beautiful thing' lets hope that he can get back on track, we need him.