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Thread: Corbyn - never fofget

  1. #26

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I can't see it happening anytime soon it seems to me this is about a leadership person issue and if Labour were to change its Leadership for a Kier type person it may make further ground on the Tories beleaguered position , however if say the Tories found a younger , modern , fresher , voice say Ruth Davidson it too would sweep ahead and probaly recover the centre ground anyway ,whereas Labour if it stayed left , may struggle , even with a new leader, the current Tory problem, is it looks and smells old .

    As an offshoot comment , I heard on the radio the other day that the Conservatives are the most successful political party in the history of western democracy .
    ( not great news for middle ground socialist I guess, as even the successful Blair, is now deemed a Tory among some)
    Ruth Davidson has said she does not want the job as she would fear for her mental health

  2. #27

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Not unless the media led brainwashed masses over here wake up. At least America has shown that some kind of change can be achieved if people think for themselves.
    Well we had our chance of right wing Trump like change, with Nigel Farage and UKIP , voters flocked to them with their Brexit , Johnny Foreginer mantra , only to drop them as soon as their hatred of the Tories returned.

  3. #28

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    I agree that politicians should be called to account for their previous words, actions and behaviours and Corbyn has a lot of form in that area. I also think that when you go down that road then you set the bar for all and there are enough politicians across he spectrum who might fail to reach the required standard. The article itself gets carried away with its own rhetoric and the writer's own perceived cleverness when chucking out his alt-left stan Lolshevik epithets in the penultimate paragraph and ends up looking smugger than necessary in making (a well worn) point. What about you?
    Yes the final bit of the penultimate paragraph does over egg the pudding a bit but the rest of it makes sense.

    And even though it is a well worn point it is still valid.


    There are so many alive today who don't realise that 30 years ago people were as concerned about the IRA then as they are of ISIL today. And many who were don't seem to remember.

    Time is a great healer but some things should never be forgotten.

  4. #29

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Never fofget.

  5. #30

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    I agree that politicians should be called to account for their previous words, actions and behaviours and Corbyn has a lot of form in that area. I also think that when you go down that road then you set the bar for all and there are enough politicians across he spectrum who might fail to reach the required standard. The article itself gets carried away with its own rhetoric and the writer's own perceived cleverness when chucking out his alt-left stan Lolshevik epithets in the penultimate paragraph and ends up looking smugger than necessary in making (a well worn) point. What about you?
    What's a Laugh-out-loud-shevik?

  6. #31

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Is 'never fofget' linked to 'covfefe'?

  7. #32

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    What's a Laugh-out-loud-shevik?
    Did you read the original article? It was the smart arse writer's attempt to portray Corbyn's followers on social media as people who laugh whenever an act of political violence is perpetrated on people or groups they don't like or approve.

  8. #33

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    Yes the final bit of the penultimate paragraph does over egg the pudding a bit but the rest of it makes sense.

    And even though it is a well worn point it is still valid.


    There are so many alive today who don't realise that 30 years ago people were as concerned about the IRA then as they are of ISIL today. And many who were don't seem to remember.

    Time is a great healer but some things should never be forgotten.
    I'm not so sure about that - it's pretty obvious that not all of the article was pasted into the OP.

    Also, although I accept that the following will probably lead to me being accused of being an IRA apologist, there are two sides to the argument, as applied to Ireland, outlined in the article. Of course, the Brighton bombing was one of a series of outrages perpetrated by the IRA which cannot, and should never be, condoned, but the inference of the article appears to be that the murder of politicians and/or their family members is somehow worse than all of the other killings carried out, by both sides, in that period lasting from the sixties through to the nineties. I lived through that time and can remember, for example, Bloody Sunday which would, surely, have made a huge impression on many young Catholics in Northern Ireland at that time.

    Thirteen years after the Brighton bombing came the Good Friday Agreement which was supported on all sides of the political spectrum - should those who enabled the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness to play a part in the governing of Northern Ireland by voting for the agreement also be condemned? Jeremy Corbyn voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement and I believe that articles like this one

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...rthern-ireland

    offer a more genuine analysis of his attitude towards that country than the one portrayed in the article.

    In my opinion, Jeremy Corbyn's weakness when it comes to antisemitism and Brexit raise legitimate questions about his worthiness to become Prime Minister, but I don't think what he said and did about Northern Ireland thirty years and more ago (a time when the political landscape in that area was completely different to what it is now) should preclude him from getting the job.

  9. #34

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I'm not so sure about that - it's pretty obvious that not all of the article was pasted into the OP.

    Also, although I accept that the following will probably lead to me being accused of being an IRA apologist, there are two sides to the argument, as applied to Ireland, outlined in the article. Of course, the Brighton bombing was one of a series of outrages perpetrated by the IRA which cannot, and should never be, condoned, but the inference of the article appears to be that the murder of politicians and/or their family members is somehow worse than all of the other killings carried out, by both sides, in that period lasting from the sixties through to the nineties. I lived through that time and can remember, for example, Bloody Sunday which would, surely, have made a huge impression on many young Catholics in Northern Ireland at that time.

    Thirteen years after the Brighton bombing came the Good Friday Agreement which was supported on all sides of the political spectrum - should those who enabled the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness to play a part in the governing of Northern Ireland by voting for the agreement also be condemned? Jeremy Corbyn voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement and I believe that articles like this one

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...rthern-ireland

    offer a more genuine analysis of his attitude towards that country than the one portrayed in the article.

    In my opinion, Jeremy Corbyn's weakness when it comes to antisemitism and Brexit raise legitimate questions about his worthiness to become Prime Minister, but I don't think what he said and did about Northern Ireland thirty years and more ago (a time when the political landscape in that area was completely different to what it is now) should preclude him from getting the job.
    Sorry cant agree with you on this one ,and he won't have changed his view either ,this is about suitability and security and the fact folk died .

    """ [I]Jeremy Corbyn was arrested in 1986 taking part in a protest by IRA sympathisers to “show solidarity” with accused terrorists including the Brighton bomber, a Sunday Times investigation reveals.

    Corbyn joined a picket outside the Old Bailey to oppose the “show trial” of a group including Patrick Magee, who was subsequently convicted of murdering five people at the 1984 Tory party conference.

    Magee was also convicted with the other defendants of planning a massive bombing campaign in London and seaside resorts.

    Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, defended her leader this morning for speaking out openly at the time, adding that Mr Corbyn’s position was “not having open support for the IRA”.""

    And has he not since attended some strange events, and remembrances ?

  10. #35

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Sorry cant agree with you on this one ,and he won't have changed his view either ,this is about suitability and security and the fact folk died .

    """ [I]Jeremy Corbyn was arrested in 1986 taking part in a protest by IRA sympathisers to “show solidarity” with accused terrorists including the Brighton bomber, a Sunday Times investigation reveals.

    Corbyn joined a picket outside the Old Bailey to oppose the “show trial” of a group including Patrick Magee, who was subsequently convicted of murdering five people at the 1984 Tory party conference.

    Magee was also convicted with the other defendants of planning a massive bombing campaign in London and seaside resorts.

    Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, defended her leader this morning for speaking out openly at the time, adding that Mr Corbyn’s position was “not having open support for the IRA”.""

    And has he not since attended some strange events, and remembrances ?
    Cleverly written to imply that Corbyn was present to 'show solidarity' with accused terrorists which is an obvious rewriting of history. The Troops out Movement didn't believe Patrick Magee was going to get a fair trial, Corbyn attended to protest against a trial for show. Are you in favour of show trials or do you think the law should be followed to the letter in all instances (even under the most emotive of circumstances)?

  11. #36

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I'm not so sure about that - it's pretty obvious that not all of the article was pasted into the OP.

    Also, although I accept that the following will probably lead to me being accused of being an IRA apologist, there are two sides to the argument, as applied to Ireland, outlined in the article. Of course, the Brighton bombing was one of a series of outrages perpetrated by the IRA which cannot, and should never be, condoned, but the inference of the article appears to be that the murder of politicians and/or their family members is somehow worse than all of the other killings carried out, by both sides, in that period lasting from the sixties through to the nineties. I lived through that time and can remember, for example, Bloody Sunday which would, surely, have made a huge impression on many young Catholics in Northern Ireland at that time.

    Thirteen years after the Brighton bombing came the Good Friday Agreement which was supported on all sides of the political spectrum - should those who enabled the likes of Gerry Adams and Martin McGuiness to play a part in the governing of Northern Ireland by voting for the agreement also be condemned? Jeremy Corbyn voted in favour of the Good Friday Agreement and I believe that articles like this one

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...rthern-ireland

    offer a more genuine analysis of his attitude towards that country than the one portrayed in the article.

    In my opinion, Jeremy Corbyn's weakness when it comes to antisemitism and Brexit raise legitimate questions about his worthiness to become Prime Minister, but I don't think what he said and did about Northern Ireland thirty years and more ago (a time when the political landscape in that area was completely different to what it is now) should preclude him from getting the job.
    It is this naivety that sends me loopy on this board. Show me a PM or leading politician who doesn't have a blot on their copybook when hindsight is applied to their decisions. Maggie was besties with a mass muderer, Cameron directly helped jihadis take over libya and Blair inadvertently did the same in Iraq - both managed to destabilise entire regions in a matter of months - we should never fofget these things either. Hindsight applied to Corbyn seems to stick, Hindsight applied to May's ghastly record against minorities whilst in the home office and against the most vulnerable as PM doesn't seem to.

    Yes but lets get another 'centralist' as LOM says because they don't do bad things (unless you count mindless decisions that go some way to destroying the world as bad).

  12. #37

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    It is this naivety that sends me loopy on this board. Show me a PM or leading politician who doesn't have a blot on their copybook when hindsight is applied to their decisions. Maggie was besties with a mass muderer, Cameron directly helped jihadis take over libya and Blair inadvertently did the same in Iraq - both managed to destabilise entire regions in a matter of months - we should never fofget these things either. Hindsight applied to Corbyn seems to stick, Hindsight applied to May's ghastly record against minorities whilst in the home office and against the most vulnerable as PM doesn't seem to.

    Yes but lets get another 'centralist' as LOM says because they don't do bad things (unless you count mindless decisions that go some way to destroying the world as bad).
    Maybe they are preparing the ground for another referendum or a snap election? When you see these smears and hit pieces, you know something is lurking around the corner.

  13. #38

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    It is this naivety that sends me loopy on this board. Show me a PM or leading politician who doesn't have a blot on their copybook when hindsight is applied to their decisions. Maggie was besties with a mass muderer, Cameron directly helped jihadis take over libya and Blair inadvertently did the same in Iraq - both managed to destabilise entire regions in a matter of months - we should never fofget these things either. Hindsight applied to Corbyn seems to stick, Hindsight applied to May's ghastly record against minorities whilst in the home office and against the most vulnerable as PM doesn't seem to.

    Yes but lets get another 'centralist' as LOM says because they don't do bad things (unless you count mindless decisions that go some way to destroying the world as bad).
    The Spectator article referred to in the original post refers to Corbyn meeting Sinn Fein representatives shortly after the Brighton Bombing when he knew Sinn Fein was the political wing of the IRA who were responsible for the bombing.

    Where does hindsight come into it?

  14. #39

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    The Spectator article referred to in the original post refers to Corbyn meeting Sinn Fein representatives shortly after the Brighton Bombing when he knew Sinn Fein was the political wing of the IRA who were responsible for the bombing.

    Where does hindsight come into it?
    The state has aways met with our enemies through backchannels, so what's the difference? How are you supposed to find common ground and possible solutions if you don't talk to people?

  15. #40

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    The Spectator article referred to in the original post refers to Corbyn meeting Sinn Fein representatives shortly after the Brighton Bombing when he knew Sinn Fein was the political wing of the IRA who were responsible for the bombing.

    Where does hindsight come into it?
    It feels like you are dodging the question on EU bullying in the other thread.

    Hindsight doesn't come into that at all. As far as I am aware it was roundly condemned at the time.

  16. #41

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    It feels like you are dodging the question on EU bullying in the other thread.

    Hindsight doesn't come into that at all. As far as I am aware it was roundly condemned at the time.
    Then how was "hindsight applied to Corbyn appears to stick" relevant to this thread

    And I am not dodging your question. I did in fact as you well know give you an example of EU bullying (over the money we are going to have to pay to leave)but it was apparently too long ago fot you.

    Just can't be bothered to respond again to that thread at present. Suffering from Brexit overload.

  17. #42

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    Then how was "hindsight applied to Corbyn appears to stick" relevant to this thread

    And I am not dodging your question. I did in fact as you well know give you an example of EU bullying (over the money we are going to have to pay to leave)but it was apparently too long ago fot you.

    Just can't be bothered to respond again to that thread at present. Suffering from Brexit overload.
    It was relevant to what LOM posted, I replied to him.

    Asking for someone to pay for their commitments isn't bullying and logically you cant discuss the future without sorting out the present. I don't understand how anybody could see that as bullying if I am honest.

  18. #43

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    It's all down to loyalty for me ,theres lots of stuff I disagree with,and yes leaders past and present have applied wrong decesions ,in the main though they have been applied in a protective way , albeit in someways wrong .

    My concerns with Jeremy are he doesn't actually like the UK ,the West, and it's decesions ,his associations I feel are not in our best interest or becoming of a leader of this country .

  19. #44

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    It's all down to loyalty for me ,theres lots of stuff I disagree with,and yes leaders past and present have applied wrong decesions ,in the main though they have been applied in a protective way , albeit in someways wrong .

    My concerns with Jeremy are he doesn't actually like the UK ,the West, and it's decesions ,his associations I feel are not in our best interest or becoming of a leader of this country .
    That is an acceptable opinion to hold but one that is impossible to quantify or argue against really.

    Does corbyn hate the UK? He definitely wants it to change but so do most politicians.

    What Corbyn has struggled with is being able to hold a view without associating with every other person holding that view, your enemies enemy is not always your friend.

    He hasn't had a managed route to power so his career in politics before leadership has not been santised along the way like a Blair or Cameron was.

    I have no real affinity with Corbyn, I didn't know much about him before he became leader but now it just feels like him going sparks a move back to business friendly (ie business led) new labour and a complete abandonment of anything resembling a left wing party.

    When it was Cameron and Blair/brown, the guy on the street said 'they are all the same what is the point', now they are markedly different he says 'they are extremists, hard left and hard right'. It is frustrating to watch.

  20. #45

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    That is an acceptable opinion to hold but one that is impossible to quantify or argue against really.

    Does corbyn hate the UK? He definitely wants it to change but so do most politicians.

    What Corbyn has struggled with is being able to hold a view without associating with every other person holding that view, your enemies enemy is not always your friend.

    He hasn't had a managed route to power so his career in politics before leadership has not been santised along the way like a Blair or Cameron was.

    I have no real affinity with Corbyn, I didn't know much about him before he became leader but now it just feels like him going sparks a move back to business friendly (ie business led) new labour and a complete abandonment of anything resembling a left wing party.

    When it was Cameron and Blair/brown, the guy on the street said 'they are all the same what is the point', now they are markedly different he says 'they are extremists, hard left and hard right'. It is frustrating to watch.
    I don't think he hates the UK , but I do feel he dislikes its position and western demorcay partners ,and associations.

    In my view he would personally struggle with the many aspects of a modern western democracy , with acute security measures, and behaviours , how he would manage our close relationship with the USA and simalair western democracies woukd prove to be tough , and his approach to the Russian leaderships and behavours , would be very difficulty and probably unpalatable to many voters .

    He has some nice soundbites for the young folk , around tuition fees , nationalisation , free bus rides , taxing the rich ,more open and broader approach to immigration , all of which is very exciting but in my opinion would hurt generations to come financially, particularly with the unknown Brexit impact looming ,chucking money around now, for votes, is very dangerous in my view.

  21. #46

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I don't think he hates the UK , but I do feel he dislikes its position and western demorcay partners ,and associations.

    In my view he would personally struggle with the many aspects of a modern western democracy , with acute security measures, and behaviours , how he would manage our close relationship with the USA and simalair western democracies woukd prove to be tough , and his approach to the Russian leaderships and behavours , would be very difficulty and probably unpalatable to many voters .

    He has some nice soundbites for the young folk , around tuition fees , nationalisation , free bus rides , taxing the rich ,more open and broader approach to immigration , all of which is very exciting [B]but in my opinion would hurt generations to come financially, particularly with the unknown Brexit impact looming ,chucking money around now, for votes, is very dangerous in my view.
    What would you call the past 8 years considering debt has nearly doubled? The conservatives made this warning in 2010:

    One thing is clear. We can’t go on with the old model of an economy built on debt. Irresponsible
    public spending, an overblown banking sector, and unsustainable consumer borrowing on the back
    of a housing bubble were the features of an age of irresponsibility that left Britain badly exposed to
    the economic crisis. Now, with the national debt already doubled and in danger of doubling again, it
    is this debt – together with the jobs tax that Labour will introduce to help pay for it – that threatens
    to kill the recovery.
    Does that count as a soundbite now?

  22. #47

    Re: Corbyn - never fofget

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    What would you call the past 8 years considering debt has nearly doubled? The conservatives made this warning in 2010:



    Does that count as a soundbite now?
    It is clear from the Brown goverment through the coalition, to present day , yes a lot of soundbite has echoed , however I do feel we survived , to certain extent through a bad recession , where countries like Iceland, Ireland and Greece suffered badly , and Italy and Spain are still having hard times with inflation and youth unemployment

    We I feel faired better, if that's soundbite so be it

    Debt was always going to be a factor in a recession ,giving more money away now is madness, and yes just soundbite for election votes , its so easy to say, not so easy to deliver without impacting on services ,infaltion and jobs .

    1.36 million unemployed ,lowest figures in 40 years and after a recession ,is not that bad .

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