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Thread: America again.

  1. #61

    Re: America again.

    Apparently, the man who shot all of those people a few days ago sees Trump as part of the problem - he has not gone far enough in his opinion. So, in my view, to say that Trump is directly to blame for the shootings would be wrong, but indirectly to blame? I think that's different.

    When I started this thread, I wondered whether I should put it on the politics board, but decided not to because I thought of the various shootings at schools in America down the years which did not appear to have a political motive behind them, but the way this thread has developed shows that I got it wrong - in these days it seems almost everything is political.

    The Trump apologists in this thread (they can't stand him as a man of course) use the old excuse that the apparent perpetrators of the pipe bombs sent to individuals who have been critical of Donald Trump plan and the synagogue shootings are mentally unstable. To the extent that it looks downright odd to plaster your van in posters which would make you look guilty and to advertise what you were going to do on line, these actions, along with the intention to kill of course, do not mark either of them down as sane men.

    In the interests of fairness, it should also be pointed out that not all politically motivated killers come from the right, but this article shows that in the last quarter of century in America there have been much more killings from the political right than there have been from the left.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi...s-on-u-s-soil/

    As for Donald Trump, I for one, find the implication carried by the "just blame it all on Trump" line insulting because it seems to me that it carries the assumption that critics of the man were unaware of him until he decided to run for President - that's not true in my case, I despised Donald Trump for all sorts of reasons for a couple of decades before that happened.

    In my opinion, Trump cannot escape blame for what we've seen in America from Cesar Sayoc and Robert Bowers because he uses wholly inappropriate language for someone in the position of great power and influence he finds himself in. In my lifetime, the President of America I can remember who comes closest to comparing to Trump in character is Richard Nixon - in some ways, such a comparison is unfair on Trump mind because he has not been found guilty of the sort of criminal activities Nixon was. However, I saw a programme over the weekend where it was said that Nixon had his mind changed over the Vietnam war when he left the White House to discuss that situation with anti war protesters who were outside the Presidential residence - I find it impossible to believe that Trump would even contemplate doing such a thing.

    Trump is unyielding in his opinions and gives no impression whatsoever that he could ever be talked around to a differing viewpoint on the core issues of his Presidency. One of the dangers of this approach is that weak and insecure people (nearly always men) can feel emboldened by such certainty as it helps to create a climate whereby potentially awful thoughts become transformed into actual deeds. We saw something similar in this country with the murder of Jo Cox during the referendum campaign two years ago and how anyone could be shocked by the rise in hate crime following that vote is beyond me given the tone used by some during that campaign.

    Trump is either unaware of or doesn't care about the consequences which might follow from some of the things he says - to me, that marks him down as a dangerous and divisive man.

  2. #62

    Re: America again.

    No one can say that the attack was Trump's fault alone.

    But since entering the political sphere, he has called neo-nazis "fine people", called reporters "enemies of the people", called a congressman who assaulted a reporter "my kind of guy", offered to pay legal fees for his supporters who "knocked the crap" out of protesters, shared cgi videos of himself punching and hitting his opponents with golf balls, threatened that "second amendment people" would take matters into their own hands if he lost the election, legitimised hate publications like infowars, retweeted far right anti-muslim videos, said the previous president had founded the world's most famous terror group and seen a good deal of the people he has concentrated his attacks on receive bombs in the mail.

    So I think when we see supporters from his side engaging in violent acts, we can hold him a little bit responsible.

  3. #63

    Re: America again.

    95% of my colleagues are Americans. The company I work for is headquarters in Florida (Iím here now) but we have sites in 26 states so I see a huge cross section of American society every month. My colleagues are balanced and largely a great group of people. They donít consider Trump a diplomat, but thatís less important to them. What they do think however is that from an economic perspective he is generally delivering against his word. The average person is seeing an improvement in their standard of living and their economy is recovering - people have more money and businesses are growing. I despise the man but only as a human being - taking guns away from Americans sadly is beyond any single person. I think he just accepts it so he can deliver his economic agenda

  4. #64

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by blue matt View Post
    I spent Aug in the US, from chatting to people in the pool or in a queue for a ride, it seems as you said, most Love or Hate him, nothing between , Trump supporters were always keen to tell you how much change he will make, Trump haters just wanted a Oversea's opinion on him and to point out that they were embarrassed by him

    What does make me laugh is the amount of people in the UK who just have to hate him as it is the popular thing to do, i made a tongue in cheek post " It'll all be Trumps Fault, you can bet your last penny on that " and that is the way it is, Trump to blame for everything
    This is the stupidest thing Iíve ever seen. You go to Florida to a ****ing theme park resort and act like youíve got the feel of a whole country. Itís like going to Disney land Paris and thinking youíve got an idea of the situation in the Ukraine because youíve chatted to a few holiday makers by the pool.

    The second paragraph is complete and pure idiocy too, people donít like trump because of what he spouts. Itís nothing to do with it being the popular thing to do, to reduce it to something as simple as that shows how little you actually grasp the situation.

  5. #65

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    No one can say that the attack was Trump's fault alone.

    But since entering the political sphere, he has called neo-nazis "fine people", called reporters "enemies of the people", called a congressman who assaulted a reporter "my kind of guy", offered to pay legal fees for his supporters who "knocked the crap" out of protesters, shared cgi videos of himself punching and hitting his opponents with golf balls, threatened that "second amendment people" would take matters into their own hands if he lost the election, legitimised hate publications like infowars, retweeted far right anti-muslim videos, said the previous president had founded the world's most famous terror group and seen a good deal of the people he has concentrated his attacks on receive bombs in the mail.

    So I think when we see supporters from his side engaging in violent acts, we can hold him a little bit responsible.
    I donít think anyone is saying itís Trumpís fault alone but he is a great mouthpiece for tipping lunatics like this over the edge. He is radicalising people and that guys van gave an insight into it.

    Trump and his rhetoric are very dangerous and I canít see how anyone can ignore that.

    People wonder how Germany ďfellď to the nazis but the colleagues saying ę*heís no diplomat but heís making us richer Ľ is pretty scary imo. Obviously thereís a big jump between the 2 and Iím not comparing trump to Hitler but the whole Iím all right jack and indifference to it is how stuff like this escalates.

  6. #66

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton View Post
    95% of my colleagues are Americans. The company I work for is headquarters in Florida (I’m here now) but we have sites in 26 states so I see a huge cross section of American society every month. My colleagues are balanced and largely a great group of people. They don’t consider Trump a diplomat, but that’s less important to them. What they do think however is that from an economic perspective he is generally delivering against his word. The average person is seeing an improvement in their standard of living and their economy is recovering- people have more money and businesses are growing I despise the man but only as a human being - taking guns away from Americans sadly is beyond any single person. I think he just accepts it so he can deliver
    his economic agenda
    This is just not true, the economy recovered under Obama and it continues under Trump. However, after Tump's new tax laws it's the corporations and the people at the top who see most of the money. Healthcare is becoming more expenisive, petrol is over a dollr more a gallon than it was 2 years ago, social programs are being cut, regulations have been slashed in the name of of job creation but it's really in the name of corporate profits. Poluted rivers, selling goverment land to energy companies. Private prisons. Even detaining immigants. ($745 per person per day to private companies on the taxpayers dime) It's all a huge con.

  7. #67

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by StraightOuttaCanton View Post
    95% of my colleagues are Americans. The company I work for is headquarters in Florida (Iím here now) but we have sites in 26 states so I see a huge cross section of American society every month. My colleagues are balanced and largely a great group of people. They donít consider Trump a diplomat, but thatís less important to them. What they do think however is that from an economic perspective he is generally delivering against his word. The average person is seeing an improvement in their standard of living and their economy is recovering - people have more money and businesses are growing. I despise the man but only as a human being - taking guns away from Americans sadly is beyond any single person. I think he just accepts it so he can deliver his economic agenda
    My headquarters are in Minnesota

    Most of my colleagues believe the economic growth in the US was just a continuation of the Obama policies and while give trump credit for continuing them wonder why a 14% cut in corporation tax was needed... the economy was already stimulated!

    Adding 1.7 trillion dollars onto the deficit on an already stable and growing economy seems barmy. Especially when 90% of savings has gone to buying back shares in their own corporations. While the stock market has that kind of movement the markets react well .. but itís all based on a deficit

    Additionally you have a republican president giving hand outs to farmers, a trationaly no-no for republicans and lambasted by republicans when democratic administrations done similar things as Ďsocialismí

    To service the deficit the administration are attempting to cut social welfare funds

    The whole trump economic success is based on a lie and a seeking out the poorest of the poor

    Non partisan world economic experts expect a major US recession as the country comes to terms with a huge deficit, tax cuts that will not increase the working wages in line with inflation, trade wars that will eventually see jobs being lost and corporations gaining more and more power.

    Time will tell but the economic arguments for trump seem very short sighted

  8. #68

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    Can't disagree with much of what you say there, except the bit I've put in bold. Donald trump rightly deserves to be pilloried for the damage he is doing to the perception of democracy. The ramifications are already being felt across the world.

    I say the perception of Democracy because we all know it's an illusion at its core, but so long as everyone pretends there are a set of values that those in charge can be held accountable to then it continues to work. Take that illusion away and anarchy results. I'm sure there are a number of people who think that'll be fine but really it isn't...
    Operation Crossfire did more to damage the perception of democracy than anything Trump will ever do.

  9. #69

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    I don’t think anyone is saying it’s Trump’s fault alone but he is a great mouthpiece for tipping lunatics like this over the edge. He is radicalising people and that guys van gave an insight into it.

    Trump and his rhetoric are very dangerous and I can’t see how anyone can ignore that.

    People wonder how Germany “fell“ to the nazis but the colleagues saying ę*he’s no diplomat but he’s making us richer Ľ is pretty scary imo. Obviously there’s a big jump between the 2 and I’m not comparing trump to Hitler but the whole I’m all right jack and indifference to it is how stuff like this escalates.
    And again today, Trump is tweeting that the Fake News Media are the true Enemy of the People. Continuing to fan the flames as best he can because it suits him.

  10. #70

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    And again today, Trump is tweeting that the Fake News Media are the true Enemy of the People. Continuing to fan the flames as best he can because it suits him.
    I'm not defending Trump, but the news media are a disgrace. They don't report on politics, they are in the business of politics, pushing agengas, shaping narratives, etc.. And it's not only happening in America, it's everywhere.

  11. #71

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    And again today, Trump is tweeting that the Fake News Media are the true Enemy of the People. Continuing to fan the flames as best he can because it suits him.
    He knows what heís doing he always tweets anything about conspiracies because he knows it appeals to his base.

    I used to think he did it because he was an idiot know I just think he does It because he has no morals and he knows it generates positivity among those who vote for him.

  12. #72

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    I'm not defending Trump, but the news media are a disgrace. They don't report on politics, they are in the business of politics, pushing agengas, shaping narratives, etc.. And it's not only happening in America, it's everywhere.
    There's no doubt elements of the media push a narrative that will help them (more often that not it's the right that does this) but to suggest they're all a disgrace is disingenuous and misleading, and recently has become dangerous. If we were to have a purely fact based narrative a calmer voice is necessary.

  13. #73

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    He knows what he’s doing he always tweets anything about conspiracies because he knows it appeals to his base.

    I used to think he did it because he was an idiot know I just think he does It because he has no morals and he knows it generates positivity among those who vote for him.
    He's clever cos he's got the left going insane, while the right are eating out of his hand. This leads me to believe he wants to destroy the leadership of left and their allies, no matter what the collateral damage is. I certainly haven't seen any attempts of appeasement to show this isn't his strategy. Someone above mentioned a civil war. I think it's already in progress, but it's a cold war not a hot war.

  14. #74

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays View Post
    There's no doubt elements of the media push a narrative that will help them (more often that not it's the right that does this) but to suggest they're all a disgrace is disingenuous and misleading, and recently has become dangerous. If we were to have a purely fact based narrative a calmer voice is necessary.
    Both sides are at it, and it's not just in America, you only need to look at Brexit, and around Europe to see parallels. I believe we have reached a crossroads, and what we are now witnessing is an ideological war being played out amongst opposing factions of elites from around the world.

  15. #75

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    He's clever cos he's got the left going insane, while the right are eating out of his hand. This leads me to believe he wants to destroy the leadership of left and their allies, no matter what the collateral damage is. I certainly haven't seen any attempts of appeasement to show this isn't his strategy. Someone above mentioned a civil war. I think it's already in progress, but it's a cold war not a hot war.
    What evidence do you have that Trump has anything approximating a strategy. Despite regular suggestions from some quarters that he is the Gary Kasparov of 4d chess all the evidence suggests that he lives off his instincts. How else can you explain his ability to read Presidential statements prepared for him from a teleprompter and ad-lib something venal and contradictory a few hours later.

  16. #76

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    What evidence do you have that Trump has anything approximating a strategy. Despite regular suggestions from some quarters that he is the Gary Kasparov of 4d chess all the evidence suggests that he lives off his instincts. How else can you explain his ability to read Presidential statements prepared for him from a teleprompter and ad-lib something venal and contradictory a few hours later.
    For a start Trump is a sideshow, he's not the main event.

  17. #77

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    For a start Trump is a sideshow, he's not the main event.
    Sounds fantastic insight. Care to explain.

  18. #78

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Both sides are at it, and it's not just in America, you only need to look at Brexit, and around Europe to see parallels. I believe we have reached a crossroads, and what we are now witnessing is an ideological war being played out amongst opposing factions of elites from around the world.
    One of the things that fuels the media narrative, of course, is sensationalism. With the rise of social media we got the democratisation of sensationalism - for instance, people on a football forum suggesting the news media are a disgrace and believing we are in an ideological war. What happened to the fact based narrative? Seems like we all like a dramatic story.

  19. #79

    Re: America again.

    I put him ignore a long time ago, heís a genuine lunatic with issues. Talks nothing but bollocks and has never added anything worthwhile to a debate.

    The very type of person who gets taken in by trump, Fox News and their conspiracy nonsense.

  20. #80

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays View Post
    One of the things that fuels the media narrative, of course, is sensationalism. With the rise of social media we got the democratisation of sensationalism - for instance, people on a football forum suggesting the news media are a disgrace and believing we are in an ideological war. What happened to the fact based narrative? Seems like we all like a dramatic story.
    We are living in interesting times, when last was there such political turmoil everywhere you look? Even Merkel is standing down from her party role. Regarding the media, I'm going to double down, they are players in everything that is going on right now.

  21. #81

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    I put him ignore a long time ago, he’s a genuine lunatic with issues. Talks nothing but bollocks and has never added anything worthwhile to a debate.

    The very type of person who gets taken in by trump, Fox News and their conspiracy nonsense.
    I contributed Operation Crossfire Hurricane being more to damaging to the perception of democracy than anything Trump has done. What have you contributed besides blah-blah about Fox News and their conspiracy nonsense?

  22. #82

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    We are living in interesting times, when last was there such political turmoil everywhere you look? Even Merkel is standing down from her party role. Regarding the media, I'm going to double down, they are players in everything that is going on right now.
    Gosh, doubling down on I quote "they are players in everything that is going on right now". You couldn't be a bit more vague could you?

  23. #83

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Gosh, doubling down on I quote "they are players in everything that is going on right now". You couldn't be a bit more vague could you?
    Is Trump Russia Collusion real or was it a setup? At the end of the day this it what it's all about, everything else is window-dressing.

  24. #84

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Is Trump Russia Collusion real or was it a setup? At the end of the day this it what it's all about, everything else is window-dressing.
    Ok - the media are supposedly complicit in the Trump Russia Collusion (thought that was a special investigation initiated by Trump appointees but hey-ho). That just leaves everything else that is going on right now to explain!

  25. #85

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Ok - the media are supposedly complicit in the Trump Russia Collusion (thought that was a special investigation initiated by Trump appointees but hey-ho). That just leaves everything else that is going on right now to explain!
    The hysteria we are witnessing now is all connected to that investigation. There are two possible outcomes, so it will be interesting to see which one is correct. Until then it's pointless discussing it, as everybody has such a polarised viewpoint regarding what went on.

  26. #86

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    The hysteria we are witnessing now is all connected to that investigation. There are two possible outcomes, so it will be interesting to see which one is correct. Until then it's pointless discussing it, as everybody has such a polarised viewpoint regarding what went on.
    Don't let polarised views stop you setting out your evidence, (in the unlikely event that you have any). So given that you have nothing concrete on " For a start Trump is a sideshow, he's not the main event" or "they are players in everything that is going on right now" then give "The hysteria we are witnessing now is all connected to that investigation" a go!

  27. #87

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Apparently, the man who shot all of those people a few days ago sees Trump as part of the problem - he has not gone far enough in his opinion. So, in my view, to say that Trump is directly to blame for the shootings would be wrong, but indirectly to blame? I think that's different.

    When I started this thread, I wondered whether I should put it on the politics board, but decided not to because I thought of the various shootings at schools in America down the years which did not appear to have a political motive behind them, but the way this thread has developed shows that I got it wrong - in these days it seems almost everything is political.

    The Trump apologists in this thread (they can't stand him as a man of course) use the old excuse that the apparent perpetrators of the pipe bombs sent to individuals who have been critical of Donald Trump plan and the synagogue shootings are mentally unstable. To the extent that it looks downright odd to plaster your van in posters which would make you look guilty and to advertise what you were going to do on line, these actions, along with the intention to kill of course, do not mark either of them down as sane men.

    In the interests of fairness, it should also be pointed out that not all politically motivated killers come from the right, but this article shows that in the last quarter of century in America there have been much more killings from the political right than there have been from the left.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi...s-on-u-s-soil/

    As for Donald Trump, I for one, find the implication carried by the "just blame it all on Trump" line insulting because it seems to me that it carries the assumption that critics of the man were unaware of him until he decided to run for President - that's not true in my case, I despised Donald Trump for all sorts of reasons for a couple of decades before that happened.

    In my opinion, Trump cannot escape blame for what we've seen in America from Cesar Sayoc and Robert Bowers because he uses wholly inappropriate language for someone in the position of great power and influence he finds himself in. In my lifetime, the President of America I can remember who comes closest to comparing to Trump in character is Richard Nixon - in some ways, such a comparison is unfair on Trump mind because he has not been found guilty of the sort of criminal activities Nixon was. However, I saw a programme over the weekend where it was said that Nixon had his mind changed over the Vietnam war when he left the White House to discuss that situation with anti war protesters who were outside the Presidential residence - I find it impossible to believe that Trump would even contemplate doing such a thing.

    Trump is unyielding in his opinions and gives no impression whatsoever that he could ever be talked around to a differing viewpoint on the core issues of his Presidency. One of the dangers of this approach is that weak and insecure people (nearly always men) can feel emboldened by such certainty as it helps to create a climate whereby potentially awful thoughts become transformed into actual deeds. We saw something similar in this country with the murder of Jo Cox during the referendum campaign two years ago and how anyone could be shocked by the rise in hate crime following that vote is beyond me given the tone used by some during that campaign.

    Trump is either unaware of or doesn't care about the consequences which might follow from some of the things he says - to me, that marks him down as a dangerous and divisive man.
    So it is about politics then, and shouldn't be on this board.

    I'll get my point in anyway, which is this. Whether it's a muslim in a Ford Escort running down innocent pedestrians or this bloke in Canada, they all have one thing in common. They're high on drugs and consequently raving mad. Trump or Isis have nothing to do with it..

  28. #88

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Don't let polarised views stop you setting out your evidence, (in the unlikely event that you have any). So given that you have nothing concrete on " For a start Trump is a sideshow, he's not the main event" or "they are players in everything that is going on right now" then give "The hysteria we are witnessing now is all connected to that investigation" a go!
    To put it very simply, if it was a setup then the media are involved, and that would be the same media who have driven the anti-Trump hysteria since day one.

  29. #89

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Society created Trump?? You will have to explain that one.
    Its just my simple view, over the years I've seen peoples behaviors develop and change depending on how they are treated by society or how they treat society , some like Trump become very focused, and believe in their way and only their way , that is then reinforced by others who join him and equally share their narrow views , that then becomes a focal point and ideology, which some in society adopts and apply to their lives , it then shapes the direction of politics , by either becoming a follower, supporting ,building and selling to others in society their narrow views, then all of a sudden they are in power, therefore in my humble view , yes ,created by society .

  30. #90

    Re: America again.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    What evidence do you have that Trump has anything approximating a strategy. Despite regular suggestions from some quarters that he is the Gary Kasparov of 4d chess all the evidence suggests that he lives off his instincts. How else can you explain his ability to read Presidential statements prepared for him from a teleprompter and ad-lib something venal and contradictory a few hours later.
    Trump is simply a clever divisive man, he's got a lot of folk jumping around .

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