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Thread: Brexit thread

  1. #421

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I no , it's crazy isn't it , her deal ain't hard , hard is crashing out.

    To all I have derided, I seek your humble forgiveness .🙄
    I get that they are ambiguous terms but there has been so much on the news about why the deal hasn't passed and it is nothing to do with it being 'soft brexit' highlighted by the fact that you cant name one person who said it was. It hasn't got through parliament because of the backstop, the current backstop is an invention of the UK government so to say the withdrawal agreement was 'drawn up by the EU to suit them' is just plain fantasy.

    This 'soft brexit deal' you speak of is a harder brexit than the majority of brexit campaigners were in favour of during the referendum. The official campaign insisted we wouldn't leave without a deal. The goalposts have been moved in the last 6 months by brexiteers who gain from economic turmoil. They are trying to make the public believe that no deal is just normal, it sounds like they have managed it.

    May's proposed future arrangement (agreed in principle by the EU) takes us out of the customs union, out of the single market, ends free movement. How, from any perspective, you could consider that soft among the spectrum of other potential relationships available to us, I simply do not know.

  2. #422

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    It's not "my" background knowledge, it's anybody who has followed the anti-Trump investigations and realized that they may have been an organised hit job. It should also be noted that some of the people involved are from Britain.

    Regarding the convictions you mentioned, none of them had anything to do with Trump. Some of them were historical, as in the case of Manafort who incidentally had been previously investigated for these same crimes, which the DOJ had declined to prosecute. What changed?

    As to being one sided it was a relatively narrow subject, and I justed posted what I thought to be correct. There were plenty of people posting about the other side of the story.

    BTW Organ is not a kindred spirit our views differ considerably, but where we are similar is that we are both open minded, take opposing views into account, and impose no bounds on potential outcomes. Some people can't think past the reporting of their favourite news sources, which invariably leads to echo chamber opinions, and worse if those sources are wrong.
    You may take "opposing views into account" but, as far as the things you mainly post on this board go, you never let them change your opinion. As for "open minded", the current count has you down as posting more than 12,900 messages on here. Now, I'm sure that the large majority of those apply to the globalists v non globalists conflict, so can you show me just ten messages among the many thousand on the subject you have posted which come down on the globalists side - if you are really so open minded, then I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for you at all.

    As I say, most of us are not open minded when it comes to politics - I certainly wish I was more open minded, but at least I do recognise this failing in myself.

    You mention Paul Manafort, are you seriously suggesting that Donald Trump's relationship with him only dates back to the time when he confirmed he would be running for President? At the very, very least, the number of sackings, convictions and charges against people he has relied on, given jobs to in Government or employed since Donald Trump announced his candidature shows that he his judgment of others is pretty dreadful.

  3. #423

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I would also add people cannot see past their narrow political allegiances ,resulting in no compromise or criticism of those they follow, all parties have good and bad ideas and ideals ,its okay to become critical of something .
    You do realise you are talking to that master of compromise Wales Bales here do you? Also, just because someone says (quite often in the case of Gluey!) they are "open minded" , it doesn't automatically follow that they are!

  4. #424

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I get that they are ambiguous terms but there has been so much on the news about why the deal hasn't passed and it is nothing to do with it being 'soft brexit' highlighted by the fact that you cant name one person who said it was. It hasn't got through parliament because of the backstop, the current backstop is an invention of the UK government so to say the withdrawal agreement was 'drawn up by the EU to suit them' is just plain fantasy.

    This 'soft brexit deal' you speak of is a harder brexit than the majority of brexit campaigners were in favour of during the referendum. The official campaign insisted we wouldn't leave without a deal. The goalposts have been moved in the last 6 months by brexiteers who gain from economic turmoil. They are trying to make the public believe that no deal is just normal, it sounds like they have managed it.

    May's proposed future arrangement (agreed in principle by the EU) takes us out of the customs union, out of the single market, ends free movement. How, from any perspective, you could consider that soft among the spectrum of other potential relationships available to us, I simply do not know.
    Thanks.

    Best I better explain (my views ) of a soft or hard Brexit .

    A soft Brexit is one where we have an agreed deal
    ( ie May's deal) with a careful cautious exit .

    A hard Brexit , would be one , where we simply crash out in chaos with no deal.

    With reference to your last paragraph , its intresting as that follows the wish of the people who voted to leave ?

    Hope that better explains my view.

  5. #425

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Thanks.

    Best I better explain (my views ) of a soft or hard Brexit .

    A soft Brexit is one where we have an agreed deal
    ( ie May's deal) with a careful cautious exit .

    A hard Brexit , would be one , where we simply crash out in chaos with no deal.

    With reference to your last paragraph , its intresting as that follows the wish of the people who voted to leave ?

    Hope that better explains my view.
    It does follow some of their wishes, those people should want it. Not everyone voted brexit for the same reasons. The reason it has little public support amongst Brexiteers is primarily because it is a cult of personality where the narrative is led by a few key figures. If they are against the deal then a lot of the brexit voting public would be too.

    None of the campaign's wanted no deal, it was barely mentioned as an option during the referendum yet now has significant public support. Why? Because they follow the those key Brexiteers every utterance as gospel and they have all lurched towards no deal.

  6. #426

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Thanks.

    Best I better explain (my views ) of a soft or hard Brexit .

    A soft Brexit is one where we have an agreed deal
    ( ie May's deal) with a careful cautious exit .

    A hard Brexit , would be one , where we simply crash out in chaos with no deal.

    With reference to your last paragraph , its intresting as that follows the wish of the people who voted to leave ?

    Hope that better explains my view.
    But that was never hard brexit. That was always no deal. Hard/soft is the type of deal.

    How have the goalposts changed so much? Does no one have any kind of memory any more?

  7. #427

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    But that was never hard brexit. That was always no deal. Hard/soft is the type of deal.

    How have the goalposts changed so much? Does no one have any kind of memory any more?
    Well time has moved on , this is just my current view , a simple viewpoint , with no agenda.

    I get the feeling when talking to people, a crash out is becoming a popular choice , probaly born out of boredom , folk have simply had enough, perhaps we should have left out two years ago, to avoid all this groundhog day from all parties.

  8. #428

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Well time has moved on , this is just my current view , a simple viewpoint , with no agenda.

    I get the feeling when talking to people, a crash out is becoming a popular choice , probaly born out of boredom , folk have simply had enough, perhaps we should have left out two years ago, to avoid all this groundhog day from all parties.

    People talk of a crash as flippantly as the council changing bin days.

    People therefore are ****ing stupid if they think this. Ive gone beyond trying to reason with these people who attribute the EU of their life problems.

  9. #429

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2 View Post
    People talk of a crash as flippantly as the council changing bin days.

    People therefore are ****ing stupid if they think this. Ive gone beyond trying to reason with these people who attribute the EU of their life problems.
    Indeed, why not take the May deal then ??

  10. #430

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Indeed, why not take the May deal then ??
    Because it failed to get through the house on the first attempt and we all know that democracy only happens once.

    It is 'anti-democratic' to ask twice according to Brexiteers. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

  11. #431

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Because it failed to get through the house on the first attempt and we all know that democracy only happens once.

    It is 'anti-democratic' to ask twice according to Brexiteers. What is good for the goose is good for the gander.
    Tell that to the opposition party as well , as 62% of it's constituents voted democratly to leave . So why doesn't the opposition vote for the deal and apply the democracy to it's voters and leave .

  12. #432

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Tell that to the opposition party as well , as 62% of it's constituents voted democratly to leave . So why doesn't the opposition vote for the deal and apply the democracy to it's voters and leave .
    Because it doesn't think the deal is a good deal. Do you think politicians should vote for things they disagree with?

  13. #433

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    You may take "opposing views into account" but, as far as the things you mainly post on this board go, you never let them change your opinion. As for "open minded", the current count has you down as posting more than 12,900 messages on here. Now, I'm sure that the large majority of those apply to the globalists v non globalists conflict, so can you show me just ten messages among the many thousand on the subject you have posted which come down on the globalists side - if you are really so open minded, then I'm sure that wouldn't be a problem for you at all.

    As I say, most of us are not open minded when it comes to politics - I certainly wish I was more open minded, but at least I do recognise this failing in myself.

    You mention Paul Manafort, are you seriously suggesting that Donald Trump's relationship with him only dates back to the time when he confirmed he would be running for President? At the very, very least, the number of sackings, convictions and charges against people he has relied on, given jobs to in Government or employed since Donald Trump announced his candidature shows that he his judgment of others is pretty dreadful.
    I know my posts have been quite subtle, but I thought it would have come through that I am not all that interested in politics. I find the rule of law and the corruption aspects more interesting, and the Trump Russia Collusion hoax has certainly revealed some unusual behaviour. We now know how easy it is to utilise state instutions for political purposes, and I would be intrigued to know how widespread these practices are.

    Paul Manafort's problems stem from his dealings in Ukraine, and these predate the short period he spent with the Trump campaige. Like I said, these were investigated by a prior administration, and they declined to prosecute. I don't think we have heard the last of Ukraine either, as we now know at least two sources for the Steele dossier come from there.

  14. #434

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Tell that to the opposition party as well , as 62% of it's constituents voted democratly to leave . So why doesn't the opposition vote for the deal and apply the democracy to it's voters and leave .
    It is estimated ( votes weren't counted by constituency) that at the time of the referendum 61% of Labour held constituencies voted to Leave. This is of course very different to the estimated 65% of Labour voters nationwide who voted to Remain.

    This figure changed to an estimated 56% after the results of the 2017 general election, presumably as some Remain constituencies previously in Tory hands moved to Labour.

    So if you are talking about Labour voters then it would be perfectly consistent for MPs to "apply the democracy to it's (sic) voters" and vote against the deal on the withdrawal agreement!

  15. #435

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    It is estimated ( votes weren't counted by constituency) that at the time of the referendum 61% of Labour held constituencies voted to Leave. This is of course very different to the estimated 65% of Labour voters nationwide who voted to Remain.

    This figure changed to an estimated 56% after the results of the 2017 general election, presumably as some Remain constituencies previously in Tory hands moved to Labour.

    So if you are talking about Labour voters then it would be perfectly consistent for MPs to "apply the democracy to it's (sic) voters" and vote against the deal on the withdrawal agreement!
    Then why not be brave and vote for the second referendum ,why did they abstain from that option last week ( please don't say the time us not right ) it would have in effect brought down the withdrawal agreement.

  16. #436

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I watched Newsnight on IPlayer this morning and couldn't believe what I was seeing - politicians are tying themselves up in knots to the extent that Nicky Morgan (who is at least willing to be flexible in her thinking to try and get us out of this mess) is going to be voting for a no deal Brexit today - given her stance during and since the Referendum, that just seems absurd to me.

    Ever since yesterday's vote I've seen and heard no end of politicians saying they can fully understand the public's frustration with Parliament and that people need to get together now to thrash out a solution, but, almost always, the conversation ends with the speaker making it clear that others need to come around to his/her way of thinking - they just don't get it.
    But who does get it? Theoretically, soft Brexit is not what the electorate voted for. There was no fine-tuning regarding the question posed regarding referendum vote: Remain being one option and leaving the EU the other option. It is so ironic that the compromise that may be reached was not voted for by anyone (not that I think that the electorate have been the wisest judges regarding the matter, as you know from my previous posts).

  17. #437

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    But who does get it? Theoretically, soft Brexit is not what the electorate voted for. There was no fine-tuning regarding the question posed regarding referendum vote: Remain being one option and leaving the EU the other option. It is so ironic that the compromise that may be reached was not voted for by anyone (not that I think that the electorate have been the wisest judges regarding the matter, as you know from my previous posts).
    The point I was trying to make was that, even after nearly three years of deadlock, we're still hearing too much of it's got to be my Brexit!

    For me, there were two main things to come out the 2016 Referendum. The first being that on one particular day more of those who could be bothered to vote wanted us to Leave the EU than stay in it. The second was that more than 16.1 million people all voted for the same single thing - i.e. the status quo where things "Remain" as they were. People go on about the 17.4 million leavers, but any analysis of that figure will show a multitude of reasons as to why so many people wanted to leave and so you would probably get thousands of different answers if you asked each Leave voter to set out why they voted the way they did - when you go beyond the figures revealed in the vote, Remain would be the largest single answer in any detailed analysis of precisely what motivated people on that day.

    I say one particular day, because my perception was that the issue which resounded most with Leave voters was immigration - maybe I 'm wrong there, but there can be no doubt that it was something that was debated at length in the time leading up to vote.

    Nowadays, it barely gets a mention, yet this

    https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

    suggests that any fall in immigration to the UK from the EU since the 2016 vote has been offset or even surpassed by an increase in non EU immigration - this suggests that people feel less strongly about immigration now than they did back on that given day in 2016.

    All of this shows how hard it is to come up with any sort of precise definition as to what Brexit meant and still means to your average person. By it's nature, Brexit has to mean an awful lot of different things to the UK population, so it must follow that any solution to the issue which, broadly, is to the satisfaction of a majority has to be a compromise. That's what I meant by "they just don't get it" - people with too many personal agendas are having too big a say as to where the country should go from here.

  18. #438

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    The point I was trying to make was that, even after nearly three years of deadlock, we're still hearing too much of it's got to be my Brexit!

    For me, there were two main things to come out the 2016 Referendum. The first being that on one particular day more of those who could be bothered to vote wanted us to Leave the EU than stay in it. The second was that more than 16.1 million people all voted for the same single thing - i.e. the status quo where things "Remain" as they were. People go on about the 17.4 million leavers, but any analysis of that figure will show a multitude of reasons as to why so many people wanted to leave and so you would probably get thousands of different answers if you asked each Leave voter to set out why they voted the way they did - when you go beyond the figures revealed in the vote, Remain would be the largest single answer in any detailed analysis of precisely what motivated people on that day.

    I say one particular day, because my perception was that the issue which resounded most with Leave voters was immigration - maybe I 'm wrong there, but there can be no doubt that it was something that was debated at length in the time leading up to vote.

    Nowadays, it barely gets a mention, yet this

    https://fullfact.org/immigration/eu-migration-and-uk/

    suggests that any fall in immigration to the UK from the EU since the 2016 vote has been offset or even surpassed by an increase in non EU immigration - this suggests that people feel less strongly about immigration now than they did back on that given day in 2016.

    All of this shows how hard it is to come up with any sort of precise definition as to what Brexit meant and still means to your average person. By it's nature, Brexit has to mean an awful lot of different things to the UK population, so it must follow that any solution to the issue which, broadly, is to the satisfaction of a majority has to be a compromise. That's what I meant by "they just don't get it" - people with too many personal agendas are having too big a say as to where the country should go from here.
    Hi, Bob. I wasn't arguing with you, old fruit. The whole thing is a huge stramash, as the Scots say. There are a number of politicians playing their own games but those who aren't have been put in a difficult situation themselves. And they daren't say that the electorate were not qualified to vote on the matter due to the level of ignorance regarding the matter.

  19. #439

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Hi, Bob. I wasn't arguing with you, old fruit. The whole thing is a huge stramash, as the Scots say. There are a number of politicians playing their own games but those who aren't have been put in a difficult situation themselves. And they daren't say that the electorate were not qualified to vote on the matter due to the level of ignorance regarding the matter.
    Cocked up the last sentence but I blame my phone 😊

  20. #440

    Re: Brexit thread

    Speaker John Bercow is saying that Theresa May cannot come back with a third attempt to get her deal through Parliament unless it is significantly different from the one voted on last week.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47614074

  21. #441

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Speaker John Bercow is saying that Theresa May cannot come back with a third attempt to get her deal through Parliament unless it is significantly different from the one voted on last week.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47614074
    Quite right too! Does she think everybody is stupid? She must be the worst PM in living memory. At least Thatcher had some principles, even if they were mostly bad ones.

  22. #442

    Re: Brexit thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Quite right too! Does she think everybody is stupid? She must be the worst PM in living memory. At least Thatcher had some principles, even if they were mostly bad ones.
    I still say Cameron (just) for his utter cowardice.

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