What is the point of our academy?

[City123]

Its pointless having an academy below Category 1 standard

[dandywarhol]

Theres a lad from Cwmbran Jack Bodenham worth looking out for,
I notice Neils boy William is on the books as well.
Neil Warnock has sorted the club from Top to bottom.It takes time

[the other bob wilson]

Chris Gunter and Joe Ledley may not have had stellar careers, but, between the pair of them, they will end up with not much short of 200 caps for Wales when they call it a day. Furthermore, they will have won those caps at a time when the International team have been doing well by the standards of our country, so there is not much devaluing of their caps because they were gained at a time when we were weak.

They also both made their league debuts for City at the age of seventeen. Just imagine if Gunter and Ledley were that age and making their way at City last season, is there any chance they would have featured in Neil Warnock's team? My guess is that they wouldn't have done, they would have spent the 17/18 season playing for the Academy team every week, because that's the way things are done at the club these days.

To bring things up to date, we are crying out for a right back and yet we have one who is still in his teens, but has been the first choice in his position for Wales' Under 21 side for eighteen months or more now (he was also called up to train with the senior Wales squad in May). Not only that, Cameron Coxe was widely praised for his play in the Toulon tournament at the end of the 16/17 season as a modern day attacking full back for the Under 21s.

Now, I'm not saying Coxe is the answer to our right back problem, especially at Premier League level, but I can't help but wonder when, or if, the time will come when he is seriously considered as a right back option when a possible vacancy in that position arises before a league game with something riding on it, because I'm pretty sure that time has not arrived yet.

Would Gunter have been considered for the right back birth in the current team if he was still with us at the age of nineteen, going on twenty like Coxe is? I don't think so, because the club has changed over the last ten years. Similarly, there would, almost certainly, have been no million pounds bid for him at the age of seventeen from Everton and no 2 million pounds move to Spurs for him at 18 like there was eleven years ago.

In another thread, I commented that it was embarrassing that there are no City players in the latest Welsh senior squad (not that this is particularly unusual because it often happens these days). I feel that one of the reasons for this is the void that promising teenagers, with plenty of age group international football behind them, find themselves in once they become too old for Academy team football. Far too few of them go out on loan and, instead, find themselves playing seasons that are vital in their development as footballers playing in our Under 23 team which, unfortunately, has become the place locally produced youngsters at Cardiff go to play for these days in the two or three seasons before they are released.

In a way, the question "what is the point of our academy?" has become an irrelevance in recent years, because, almost certainly, the same thing would be happening if we had one or not - no locally produced youngsters would be finding their way into the first team for games that really meant something to the club. Sadly, we're getting closer to a situation where the question should be what is the point in any gifted youngster from this area choosing to sign for Cardiff City?

[SunderlandBluebird]

Wasn't that Rabbi Matundo (sorry not sure of his exact name) in our academy before Man City poached him? If so, what chance do we have these days when any remote talent can be snapped up for peanuts at 14 or 15

[Father Dougal]

Chris Gunter and Joe Ledley may not have had stellar careers, but, between the pair of them, they will end up with not much short of 200 caps for Wales when they call it a day. Furthermore, they will have won those caps at a time when the International team have been doing well by the standards of our country, so there is not much devaluing of their caps because they were gained at a time when we were weak.

They also both made their league debuts for City at the age of seventeen. Just imagine if Gunter and Ledley were that age and making their way at City last season, is there any chance they would have featured in Neil Warnock's team? My guess is that they wouldn't have done, they would have spent the 17/18 season playing for the Academy team every week, because that's the way things are done at the club these days.

To bring things up to date, we are crying out for a right back and yet we have one who is still in his teens, but has been the first choice in his position for Wales' Under 21 side for eighteen months or more now (he was also called up to train with the senior Wales squad in May). Not only that, Cameron Coxe was widely praised for his play in the Toulon tournament at the end of the 16/17 season as a modern day attacking full back for the Under 21s.

Now, I'm not saying Coxe is the answer to our right back problem, especially at Premier League level, but I can't help but wonder when, or if, the time will come when he is seriously considered as a right back option when a possible vacancy in that position arises before a league game with something riding on it, because I'm pretty sure that time has not arrived yet.

Would Gunter have been considered for the right back birth in the current team if he was still with us at the age of nineteen, going on twenty like Coxe is? I don't think so, because the club has changed over the last ten years. Similarly, there would, almost certainly, have been no million pounds bid for him at the age of seventeen from Everton and no 2 million pounds move to Spurs for him at 18 like there was eleven years ago.

In another thread, I commented that it was embarrassing that there are no City players in the latest Welsh senior squad (not that this is particularly unusual because it often happens these days). I feel that one of the reasons for this is the void that promising teenagers, with plenty of age group international football behind them, find themselves in once they become too old for Academy team football. Far too few of them go out on loan and, instead, find themselves playing seasons that are vital in their development as footballers playing in our Under 23 team which, unfortunately, has become the place locally produced youngsters at Cardiff go to play for these days in the two or three seasons before they are released.

In a way, the question "what is the point of our academy?" has become an irrelevance in recent years, because, almost certainly, the same thing would be happening if we had one or not - no locally produced youngsters would be finding their way into the first team for games that really meant something to the club. Sadly, we're getting closer to a situation where the question should be what is the point in any gifted youngster from this area choosing to sign for Cardiff City?

There's definitely a point to the academy but the real question is what is the point of the under 23s?

Ramsey, gunter, jerome, Collins, Blake, earnie and ledley should be grateful we did not have such a side then.

[Loramski]

Chris Gunter and Joe Ledley may not have had stellar careers, but, between the pair of them, they will end up with not much short of 200 caps for Wales when they call it a day. Furthermore, they will have won those caps at a time when the International team have been doing well by the standards of our country, so there is not much devaluing of their caps because they were gained at a time when we were weak.

They also both made their league debuts for City at the age of seventeen. Just imagine if Gunter and Ledley were that age and making their way at City last season, is there any chance they would have featured in Neil Warnock's team? My guess is that they wouldn't have done, they would have spent the 17/18 season playing for the Academy team every week, because that's the way things are done at the club these days.

To bring things up to date, we are crying out for a right back and yet we have one who is still in his teens, but has been the first choice in his position for Wales' Under 21 side for eighteen months or more now (he was also called up to train with the senior Wales squad in May). Not only that, Cameron Coxe was widely praised for his play in the Toulon tournament at the end of the 16/17 season as a modern day attacking full back for the Under 21s.

Now, I'm not saying Coxe is the answer to our right back problem, especially at Premier League level, but I can't help but wonder when, or if, the time will come when he is seriously considered as a right back option when a possible vacancy in that position arises before a league game with something riding on it, because I'm pretty sure that time has not arrived yet.

Would Gunter have been considered for the right back birth in the current team if he was still with us at the age of nineteen, going on twenty like Coxe is? I don't think so, because the club has changed over the last ten years. Similarly, there would, almost certainly, have been no million pounds bid for him at the age of seventeen from Everton and no 2 million pounds move to Spurs for him at 18 like there was eleven years ago.

In another thread, I commented that it was embarrassing that there are no City players in the latest Welsh senior squad (not that this is particularly unusual because it often happens these days). I feel that one of the reasons for this is the void that promising teenagers, with plenty of age group international football behind them, find themselves in once they become too old for Academy team football. Far too few of them go out on loan and, instead, find themselves playing seasons that are vital in their development as footballers playing in our Under 23 team which, unfortunately, has become the place locally produced youngsters at Cardiff go to play for these days in the two or three seasons before they are released.

In a way, the question "what is the point of our academy?" has become an irrelevance in recent years, because, almost certainly, the same thing would be happening if we had one or not - no locally produced youngsters would be finding their way into the first team for games that really meant something to the club. Sadly, we're getting closer to a situation where the question should be what is the point in any gifted youngster from this area choosing to sign for Cardiff City?

I don't want to go over old ground with you, I'll try not to repeat myself too much.

It's all well and good bringing up Ledley, Gunter and Ramsey but drawing the conclusion that if we play local youngsters they'll turn into Welsh legends is generalising from the specific. We played Matthews, John and Darcy Blake too, I don't see their names there. We played lads like Wildig and Ben Nugent, Mark Harris got a game but can't get a game for Newport 18 months later. I know he wasn't our youngster but we gave Joe Mason plenty of games as a 20-year-old, it's no guarantee of future success.

How many local lads are in the Welsh squad? Four? I'm not sure. Bale and Ramsey are too good for us, we sold Gunter and Lockyer is nearly 24 and hasn't played higher than League One yet. I'm not sure why the club alone should be embarrassed by that, if the talent hasn't been there locally is it our fault for not turning water into wine? I don't know why so few local lads are making the grade but I'm sure there's more to it than just blaming our Academy. I know Ralls joined us at 16 but the fact that he progressed from there shows we can bring a youngster through.

Of course the club has made mistakes, the DVP situation was an absolute shambles last season for example. Having managers like Slade and Warnock certainly muddies the water when you're trying to produce a certain type of footballer at a young level. Coxe is probably a good example of the kind of player that Warnock doesn't fancy which doesn't help him here, at the same time I'm not aware of any bids or loan moves for him.

The club certainly seem to have failed to cash in on the talent we do have. The fact that we're a Premier League club is obviously going to make it harder for youngsters to break in here but it's a bit galling to see lads like James, Oshilaja and John being talked about in terms of £750,000 moves a year or so after they left here. Presumably Baker would be worth that as well now (Ajayi too) so that's a few million we've potentially missed out on. Not a huge amount in the big scheme of things but enough to justify having an Academy and possibly enough to make Tan think it might be worth upgrading it. Ironically, if we were a lower Championship side we could have a back four of Baker, James, Oshilaja and John then we'd all be saying what a great Academy we've got.

I know it's always 'jam tomorrow' in these situations but the youngsters coming through the Academy now do seem promising, in all age groups, and hopefully the club have learnt from mistakes that have been made and are able to bring some of them through to first team level. In our lifetime, preferably.

[the other bob wilson]

I purposely didn't mention Ramsey, because it is unrealistic to expect our Academy to consistently produce players of his standard, but, surely, it's reasonable to expect us to produce players of Gunter and Ledley's standard every now and again? Gunter has been a good Championship player for nearly all of his career, while Ledley was a Premier League regular for a couple of years and was highly regarded by Celtic fans during his time in Scotland, so why have we not produced anyone as good as them in ten years? Do you think either player would have played "proper" first team football for Cardiff if they were, say, nineteen and with us now?

I make it that Gunter had thirty eight senior appearances to his name (including three in the Premier League) before his nineteenth birthday, while Ledley had made sixty one first team appearances for us before he reached that age - both players had already won senior caps for Wales as well.

Even if I accept that Gunter and Ledley would have played some first team football before nineteen if they were youngsters with us now, there is absolutely no way that they would have played as many as that.

I don't believe people are comparing like for like when they trot out the line that our young players over the past decade or so have just not been good enough. Somewhere along the way over the past ten years, City managers lost faith in our younger players.

You talk about the current youth team, I like to think there will be some from it who will play first team football for us, but do you honestly see any of them doing so before they are twenty (at least)?

[Loramski]

What's the rush though? Harry Kane didn't make his first Premier League start for Spurs till he was nearly 21. I was wondering where the excellent Chilwell had sprung from on Saturday, he was 20 when he made his debut for Leicester. It seems like fewer teenagers are playing in the top two divisions these days, maybe I'm imagining that though.

In answer to your question, I think Warnock would've liked Ledley, yes, but then Ralls played at 17 too and has made nearly 200 appearances for us so I'm not sure what the difference is there. Gunter, probably not, but the full back situation is the best example of the clash between Academy and first team here. We're producing wing backs at youth level while the first team manager wants full backs, that's another issue though.

You talk about 'producing' players as though it's a simple process. I'm sure it's not. The raw material has to be there to work with, whether it's local talent or lads brought in from elsewhere there's only so much you can do if the ability isn't there in the first place, surely? When was the last time a decent keeper came from this area, I really don't know. Are you saying it's the club's fault that we haven't 'produced' one?

Of course the club have made mistakes but, like I said, hopefully we're learning from them. It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that the club doesn't want the youngsters to make it here, what a complete waste of time, effort and money that would be. Why wouldn't Warnock want to play them if they were good enough? As I said the other day, no one told the boys in the Academy game with Watford I saw that it was all a waste of time, no one told Bellamy either. It was a very intense 90 minutes and it felt, rightly or wrongly, that progress is being made. I'm sure everyone from Tan through to the fans would love to see good youngsters in the first team, it doesn't happen by magic though.

[Fine Lines]

A friend of mine has a son who plays for Bristol academy who have a base in Pencoed. It was cheaper to place him with them than it was to join the Cardiff one. The mind boggles.

[thehumblegringo]

A friend of mine has a son who plays for Bristol academy who have a base in Pencoed. It was cheaper to place him with them than it was to join the Cardiff one. The mind boggles.

That's not the academy but the development system which is usually just a money spinner

[the other bob wilson]

What's the rush though? Harry Kane didn't make his first Premier League start for Spurs till he was nearly 21. I was wondering where the excellent Chilwell had sprung from on Saturday, he was 20 when he made his debut for Leicester. It seems like fewer teenagers are playing in the top two divisions these days, maybe I'm imagining that though.

In answer to your question, I think Warnock would've liked Ledley, yes, but then Ralls played at 17 too and has made nearly 200 appearances for us so I'm not sure what the difference is there. Gunter, probably not, but the full back situation is the best example of the clash between Academy and first team here. We're producing wing backs at youth level while the first team manager wants full backs, that's another issue though.

You talk about 'producing' players as though it's a simple process. I'm sure it's not. The raw material has to be there to work with, whether it's local talent or lads brought in from elsewhere there's only so much you can do if the ability isn't there in the first place, surely? When was the last time a decent keeper came from this area, I really don't know. Are you saying it's the club's fault that we haven't 'produced' one?

Of course the club have made mistakes but, like I said, hopefully we're learning from them. It doesn't make sense to me to suggest that the club doesn't want the youngsters to make it here, what a complete waste of time, effort and money that would be. Why wouldn't Warnock want to play them if they were good enough? As I said the other day, no one told the boys in the Academy game with Watford I saw that it was all a waste of time, no one told Bellamy either. It was a very intense 90 minutes and it felt, rightly or wrongly, that progress is being made. I'm sure everyone from Tan through to the fans would love to see good youngsters in the first team, it doesn't happen by magic though.

I don't see the point of comparing us with Premier League teams unless or until that becomes our "natural" environment - we've been a Championship side for the vast majority of the period where we have stopped playing local youngsters in the first team.

You talk about goalkeepers, but when have we ever had a reputation for producing youngsters in that position? I'm struggling to think of anyone since Andy Dibble nearly forty years ago. We've also been poor at producing strikers, but we've done okay when it comes to midfielders and, in particular, defenders.

We go round and round in circles with this argument, but the simple fact is that, with one exception, our Academy has stopped doing what it was set up to do for the best part of a decade now. If this is because none of the hundreds of youngsters who were attached to the club in that time have been good enough, then that asks question about those who do the recruiting.

Alternatively, if, as I suspect, there have been kids here with the potential to become another Chris Gunter or Joe Ledley, then questions need to be asked as to why that promise wasn't fulfilled? Okay, some might not have made it because they were their own worst enemies, but there have to be those who failed for other reasons which ask questions about Academy staff when it comes to coaching and support.

I also come back to the attitude of our recent managers - I make it that Malky Mackay in 2013 is the last City manager to give a debut to a youngster in a game which wasn't a meaningless cup tie or end of season affair. You could go back decades before Mackay when our managers would do what he did with Declan John in our first Premier League game at West Ham as a matter of course, but not any more - nowadays, you get our manager proclaiming in August (as Neil Warnock did last year) that this isn't going to be a season to blood youngsters.

[goats]

Its pointless having an academy below Category 1 standard

I’m surprised Vincent doesn’t invest to get cat 1 status, isn’t it just about pumping in cash and having quality facility? He doesn’t like to spend big, dint blame him either, so why not invest in youth? Plenty around this area.

[WJ99mobile]

My little brother is currently on trial in Pontllanfraith for Bristol City each Monday. I’ve seen quite a few Swansea and Bristol city scouts but very few Cardiff ones.

[Loramski]

I don't see the point of comparing us with Premier League teams unless or until that becomes our "natural" environment - we've been a Championship side for the vast majority of the period where we have stopped playing local youngsters in the first team.

You talk about goalkeepers, but when have we ever had a reputation for producing youngsters in that position? I'm struggling to think of anyone since Andy Dibble nearly forty years ago. We've also been poor at producing strikers, but we've done okay when it comes to midfielders and, in particular, defenders.

We go round and round in circles with this argument, but the simple fact is that, with one exception, our Academy has stopped doing what it was set up to do for the best part of a decade now. If this is because none of the hundreds of youngsters who were attached to the club in that time have been good enough, then that asks question about those who do the recruiting.

Alternatively, if, as I suspect, there have been kids here with the potential to become another Chris Gunter or Joe Ledley, then questions need to be asked as to why that promise wasn't fulfilled? Okay, some might not have made it because they were their own worst enemies, but there have to be those who failed for other reasons which ask questions about Academy staff when it comes to coaching and support.

I also come back to the attitude of our recent managers - I make it that Malky Mackay in 2013 is the last City manager to give a debut to a youngster in a game which wasn't a meaningless cup tie or end of season affair. You could go back decades before Mackay when our managers would do what he did with Declan John in our first Premier League game at West Ham as a matter of course, but not any more - nowadays, you get our manager proclaiming in August (as Neil Warnock did last year) that this isn't going to be a season to blood youngsters.

Interesting stuff, as always. Fingers crossed for the current batch, at least there seems to be a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.

By the way, who was the last teenager to score for City? I wonder who the next one will be, and when?

[the other bob wilson]

Interesting stuff, as always. Fingers crossed for the current batch, at least there seems to be a bit of light at the end of the tunnel.

By the way, who was the last teenager to score for City? I wonder who the next one will be, and when?

I can remember Declan John scoring in a pre season friendly and Nat Jarvis scored at Oxford in a League Cup match in one of Malky Mackay's first games in charge, but my guess is that it's Joe Ralls who scored a great goal at Hull in his first Football League start as a seventeen year old a few months after Jarvis' goal.

[Loramski]

I can remember Declan John scoring in a pre season friendly and Nat Jarvis scored at Oxford in a League Cup match in one of Malky Mackay's first games in charge, but my guess is that it's Joe Ralls who scored a great goal at Hull in his first Football League start as a seventeen year old a few months after Jarvis' goal.

It was dawning on me that you'd completely forgotten we had a teenager making 13 appearances for us last time we were in the Premier League. I guess we're all trying to forget the second half of that season but Daehli's at West Brom must be the last one. I'm lucky I guess, my two clearest memories from that period are Daehli's incredible home debut for the DVP team when I thought we'd found the next Messi and the other is having a lovely day with family in Southampton then watching Ole get the better of Pochettino down there. Poor old Ole just had a meltdown here but it was a shame it didn't happen for him, I think he might've saved you from turning into Victor Meldrew on this topic if nothing else.

The last goal from an Academy product as a teenager is Nugent's at Barnsley, I assume.