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Thread: Government in contempt of Parliament

  1. #76

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    This covers quite a bit of ground in a meandering sort of way. As with most of your posts on this subject, they provide a quick skate over what has actually happened in the two and a half years since the referendum and then concentrate on a critique of the Labour Party's position.

    Your plea for consensus might be merited if the Conservative Party and UK government under Theresa May hadn't spent 30 months arguing and fighting with itself. If it had unanimity, then together with a few Labour rebels, it would see off any opposition to the deal it has negotiated.

    It might come as a surprise but one of the key responsibilities of HM Opposition is to oppose. All political parties need power to deliver their policies so decrying naked attempts to achieve that power are naive at best. Labour's 6 tests are frankly undeliverable but they happen to be all promisory notes given by Leave campaigners to the electorate prior to the referendum.

    Jeremy Corbyn is probably the most unelectable Labour leader since Michael Foot. His rebellious behaviour when his party has been in government and out and his attachment to dubious causes alienate lots of people including me. To his credit though he often seeks to highlight issues outside of the Brexit bubble that are important to people such as Universal Credit, social welfare, transport and poverty. If he thinks that Brexit is a vehicle to force change and elect a government that gives power to deliver on these issues when kowtowing to May's deal would not what is wrong with that?
    I like to meander , and yes it is an attempt to summarise ,apologies for that .

    One point you have skated around yourself is my view that the opposition should have a detailed alternative Brexit plan , if that of May's is so crap .

    If one shouts its crap, surely its beholdent on one to provide some detailed alternative .

    I see a lot of posters on this forum asking the same when political messages are made strangely they are not asked that of their own political masters , I honestly don't see it hear an alternative detaled plan ,do you ??

    Where's the alternative plan to the Irish Border problem , if as we suspect JC wants out of the EU . ( lets be honest they don't have one ,or want to have one , as they in turn will be shot down just like May is , saying nothing of detail , and just complaining suits them at the moment ,exposure will come though )

    I'd settle for a meandering plan , at least it shows purpose ,and an alternative plan .

  2. #77

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I like to meander , and yes it is an attempt to summarise ,apologies for that .

    One point you have skated around yourself is my view that the opposition should have a detailed alternative Brexit plan , if that of May's is so crap .

    If one shouts its crap, surely its beholdent on one to provide some detailed alternative .

    I see a lot of posters on this forum asking the same when political messages are made strangely they are not asked that of their own political masters , I honestly don't see it hear an alternative detaled plan ,do you ??

    Where's the alternative plan to the Irish Border problem , if as we suspect JC wants out of the EU . ( lets be honest they don't have one ,or want to have one , as they in turn will be shot down just like May is , saying nothing of detail , and just complaining suits them at the moment ,exposure will come though )

    I'd settle for a meandering plan , at least it shows purpose ,and an alternative plan .
    I genuinely don't understand the points you are making a lot of the time but that is probably me and others easily grasp your messages.

    On that basis I will offer my perspective:

    May's negotiated deal is a crock that meets the EU negotiating position that the UK does not position itself to gain a competitive advantage from its departure;
    May's negotiated deal is a crock that undermines the ability of the hard Brexit wing of the Conservative Party to forge the low regulation off-shore economy they crave;
    May's negotiated deal is a crock that maintains many of the obligations of EU membership with none of the influence;
    May's negotiated deal is a crock that undermines the integrity of the UK and has the potential to create artificial trade barriers between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

    Corbyn's alternative as articulated might have started as a more coherent negotiating position than the artificial red lines that May unnecessarily painted at the start of negotiations to curry favour with the Brexiteers in her party. Now it is arrant nonsense that if he had power he would be able to negotiate his aims in the three months left of the period that May set for negotiations.

    Once May's deal is filleted next week the only realistic options on the table that resolve the Irish Border question are likely to be a Norwegian type deal plus a customs union deal which was the softest of the Brexit options available advocated before the referendum by a number of Brexiteers but sneered at since, or retention of EU status.

  3. #78

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Name an opposition that has ever done detail until election time? Labours idea is just that, an idea, they aren't negotiating with the EU so what use would detail be?

    Once we have a different government (whenever that may be) it will be interesting to see if lifeonmars retains his preoccupation with the concept that the opposition isn't allowed to be critical of any policy without presenting specific and detailed alternatives.

  4. #79

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Name an opposition that has ever done detail until election time? Labours idea is just that, an idea, they aren't negotiating with the EU so what use would detail be?

    Once we have a different government (whenever that may be) it will be interesting to see if lifeonmars retains his preoccupation with the concept that the opposition isn't allowed to be critical of any policy without presenting specific and detailed alternatives.
    Of course they can be critical , I just feel on this matter alone its so critical to us all . Its not about revealing stuff before an election, that's general party policy you are talking about ,this is a unique situation .


    An alternative detailed published plan would show a different view/direction , it could potentially unlock this impasse we are in , which the opposition have stated many times as " move over now , and let us negotiate this deal as you have failed ,after two years " , surely the same goes for the opposition , they too have had two years to compile something in detail , in case they gained power , and would have to negotiate a deal very quickly,in detail , it would probably deliver an election win as well if it was welcomed ?.

    I know , I'm not a bright as most of you on these matters , I do realise you don't show all your cards on normal day to day policy , however I'm not that naive to suspect they have nothing in the way of an alternative plan , and are as limited in idea or solution than this government , therefore they too are balancing on a tightrope of politics , as much as the government is , because the country is split , European leaders will say and do, as they have with this deal , they are not going too climb down.

    Perhaps its time for brave leadership , even if that means simply coming out and bravely saying "enough is enough" , "" were at an impasse we now want a second referendum "", which perhaps offers the people choice of being in the single customs union , with free movement of people without payment , or back in fully, or crash out .

    I suspect though come Tuesday, Hilary Ben's “no to no deal” amendment vote will stop the main vote anyway and its all back in the soup .

    Lets be brave , and stop point scoring for personal political gain at the cost of peoples futures .

    I can only apologies you are unable too get my drift, or my meandering and my limited abilities don't touch your intellect and presented comment .

  5. #80

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Of course they can be critical , I just feel on this matter alone its so critical to us all . Its not about revealing stuff before an election, that's general party policy you are talking about ,this is a unique situation .


    An alternative detailed published plan would show a different view/direction , it could potentially unlock this impasse we are in , which the opposition have stated many times as " move over now , and let us negotiate this deal as you have failed ,after two years " , surely the same goes for the opposition , they too have had two years to compile something in detail , in case they gained power , and would have to negotiate a deal very quickly,in detail , it would probably deliver an election win as well if it was welcomed ?.

    I know , I'm not a bright as most of you on these matters , I do realise you don't show all your cards on normal day to day policy , however I'm not that naive to suspect they have nothing in the way of an alternative plan , and are as limited in idea or solution than this government , therefore they too are balancing on a tightrope of politics , as much as the government is , because the country is split , European leaders will say and do, as they have with this deal , they are not going too climb down.

    Perhaps its time for brave leadership , even if that means simply coming out and bravely saying "enough is enough" , "" were at an impasse we now want a second referendum "", which perhaps offers the people choice of being in the single customs union , with free movement of people without payment , or back in fully, or crash out .

    I suspect though come Tuesday, Hilary Ben's “no to no deal” amendment vote will stop the main vote anyway and its all back in the soup .

    Lets be brave , and stop point scoring for personal political gain at the cost of peoples futures .

    I can only apologies you are unable too get my drift, or my meandering and my limited abilities don't touch your intellect and presented comment .
    Labour have set out a plan, but until they are in a position to negotiate with the EU there really isn't much point discussing its merit or lack thereof

  6. #81

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    One such interview in the Guardian was ambiguous and meandering as my posts , where JC spoke about an alternative deal with frictinlous trade, in a single market, at no extra costs.

    Hows that possible , without free movement and not being in Europe.

    Sorry I find that as fanciful as May's daft plan .

    Again where is the alternative, or is this smoke and mirrors.

    If Labour are not careful they could see a backlash at the polls, with the bloody Tories back in for another term .

    Again, Labour be big , brave, and revolutionary as your leader used to be on the back benches.

    And get another leader to face up to May .

  7. #82

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    One such interview in the Guardian was ambiguous and meandering as my posts , where JC spoke about an alternative deal with frictinlous trade, in a single market, at no extra costs.

    Hows that possible , without free movement and not being in Europe.

    Sorry I find that as fanciful as May's daft plan .

    Again where is the alternative, or is this smoke and mirrors.

    If Labour are not careful they could see a backlash at the polls, with the bloody Tories back in for another term .

    Again, Labour be big , brave, and revolutionary as your leader used to be on the back benches.

    And get another leader to face up to May .
    What about the people who told us we should leave the EU. Do they need to come up with a plan?

  8. #83

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    One such interview in the Guardian was ambiguous and meandering as my posts , where JC spoke about an alternative deal with frictinlous trade, in a single market, at no extra costs.

    Hows that possible , without free movement and not being in Europe.

    Sorry I find that as fanciful as May's daft plan .

    Again where is the alternative, or is this smoke and mirrors.

    If Labour are not careful they could see a backlash at the polls, with the bloody Tories back in for another term .

    Again, Labour be big , brave, and revolutionary as your leader used to be on the back benches.

    And get another leader to face up to May .
    So if I understand it you think May's deal and the Labour alternative (which somehow similtaneously exists and at the same time is smoke and mirrors) are equally fanciful. Some progress at least.

  9. #84

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    What about the people who told us we should leave the EU. Do they need to come up with a plan?
    Think that's known , again not detail, but someting moronically simplistic , along the lines of (a) no deal (b) crash out , (c)take up WTO rules (d) prey.

    Which makes all their, criticisms rather ironic.

  10. #85

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    So if I understand it you think May's deal and the Labour alternative (which somehow similtaneously exists and at the same time is smoke and mirrors) are equally fanciful. Some progress at least.
    Well the conspiracy could be to force a second referendum and overturn the first however.

    What we do know, May does have an actual readable detailed document ( however bad it is ) we also know theres no alternative document , unless you can point me in the direction of one ?

    In case my views are once again becoming meandering , which I am prone too do , the clue in all this, are the critical words :
    A detailed ,readable ,alternative plan, published as an actual , document,seeking a solution .

  11. #86

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Well the conspiracy could be to force a second referendum and overturn the first however.

    What we do know, May does have an actual readable detailed document ( however bad it is ) we also know theres no alternative document , unless you can point me in the direction of one ?

    In case my views are once again becoming meandering , which I am prone too do , the clue in all this, are the critical words :
    A detailed ,readable ,alternative plan, published as an actual , document,seeking a solution .
    The withdrawal agreement you mean?

    The clue is in the second word. It is an agreement between two parties. Nobody else has spent two years negotiating with the EU so all anyone else can publish is a framework from which they would negotiate hence why they appear to you to not be detailed enough.

    The pamphlet about the future relationship published by the government contains no detail because those negotiations havent taken place yet. Can you see? when negotiations havent taken place, all you can put forward is a set of aims.

  12. #87

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    The withdrawal agreement you mean?

    The clue is in the second word. It is an agreement between two parties. Nobody else has spent two years negotiating with the EU so all anyone else can publish is a framework from which they would negotiate hence why they appear to you to not be detailed enough.

    The pamphlet about the future relationship published by the government contains no detail because those negotiations havent taken place yet. Can you see? when negotiations havent taken place, all you can put forward is a set of aims.
    Yes ,understand , but it does have detail you read .follow , understand ,argue or disagree thats the clue details e .

    Where is the other parties details of argument please forward a link so I can read the document

  13. #88

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Yes ,understand , but it does have detail you read .follow , understand ,argue or disagree thats the clue details e .

    Where is the other parties details of argument please forward a link so I can read the document
    I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

    Detail isn't possible or worth anything until you have been involved in formal negotiations.

    Do you remember the government giving
    any detail before the negotiations had taken place? No, we were given some vague soundbites, like brexit means brexit, and red lines and told if they revealed more it would 'weaken their hand'.

    This is similar to labour now but I don't remember you criticising the government for this back then.

  14. #89

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I don't know how much clearer I can make this.

    Detail isn't possible or worth anything until you have been involved in formal negotiations.

    Do you remember the government giving
    any detail before the negotiations had taken place? No, we were given some vague soundbites, like brexit means brexit, and red lines and told if they revealed more it would 'weaken their hand'.

    This is similar to labour now but I don't remember you criticising the government for this back then.
    No critsim of anyone as I dislike all parties , as a side issue are you am actual Cardiff City fan , as your lack of comment on footy matters is strange compared to politics?

  15. #90

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    No critsim of anyone as I dislike all parties , as a side issue are you am actual Cardiff City fan , as your lack of comment on footy matters is strange compared to politics?
    Could always be that he has the patience to explain the same thing 25 times which inevitably increases his percentage of political posts!

  16. #91

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Could always be that he has the patience to explain the same thing 25 times which inevitably increases his percentage of political posts!
    Or Cyril worried about Eric. One was rather quick to reply on Eric's behalf ,which us very fetching , anyway good win today ,duck Corbyn and May.

  17. #92

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Or Cyril worried about Eric. One was rather quick to reply on Eric's behalf ,which us very fetching , anyway good win today ,duck Corbyn and May.
    Not sure what the speed of response has to do with what I said and I am sure the guy can answer for himself. Back home from the footie after a long wet journey and as you say a good win today. See you at Watford!

  18. #93

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    Not sure what the speed of response has to do with what I said and I am sure the guy can answer for himself. Back home from the footie after a long wet journey and as you say a good win today. See you at Watford!
    Yes shit weather, so glad we won .

    Can't make Watford , got a Brexit meeting . 😁

  19. #94

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Yes shit weather, so glad we won .

    Can't make Watford , got a Brexit meeting . 😁
    Good luck with the meeting. Remember to take lots of detailed, readable notes!

  20. #95

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Is parliament in contempt of the people ?

  21. #96

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Is parliament in contempt of the people ?
    Once again, no.

    Were you the guy who took a noose to the protest?

  22. #97

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Once again, no.

    Were you the guy who took a noose to the protest?
    I dont nooooose what you mean , I'm not really hung about the bloody thing,its just ropey politics .

    Gotta dash twitters is kicking off,chamber is very noisy all of a sudden , I will keep the updates flowing ,and I am feeding your comments into the correct channels .

  23. #98

    Re: Government in contempt of Parliament

    Latest , there may never be a meaningful vote at all . Or a vote on a vote whether to have a vote , that may result on no meaningful vote , gotta dash MP'S are twittering.

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