Best anti religion book I have ever read , Sam Harris, letter to a Christian nation

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Not at all, i was retracting the Apology-You obviously didn't understand that. And it's Apologised, as it's past tense

Would you like to try and discuss this subject in a more mature and cogent manner? And to respond to many of the points I have made?

[Tuerto]

Would you like to try and discuss this subject in a more mature and cogent manner? And to respond to many of the points I have made?

Ok, I've not long got in from a 7am start and I've got to be back out again at 5 for a 10.30 finish-God makes work for idle hands-As my Nan used to say. I agree with you, i don't believe in god. I was brought up in a household with two catholic parents, my father denounced religion as he became an International Socialist and Marxist, my mother is still a Socialist but keeps her faith close and private, you can imagine the discussions that were had around the dinner table in my house.

Anyway, I do believe that religion is a concept thought out by uneducated men who were looking for an answer or control. I've heard what you have said a thousand times, I'd say that you're probably right. What i don't like is what i perceive as the belittling of faith, i know I've said it already, but i know hundreds of people with faith who don't take the teachings of the bible literally, they use faith as a way to help themselves and others. That may be misguided or even presumptuous in thought, i don't know. My opinions are based on the people on the ground, not those at the top who have been guilty of manipulating the poor and cosying up to Fascism and treating woman like shit. I hear so many people who are sure of themselves and dismissive of others because of what they may or may not believe in, disagree by all means, although proving people wrong with faith is as easy as taking a rattle from a baby and i sometimes think that there's an element of bullying involved, although for a long time the shoe was certainly on the other foot, still is in some of the poorest and least educated countries. Time to go

[Tuerto]

Ok, I've not long got in from a 7am start and I've got to be back out again at 5 for a 10.30 finish-God makes work for idle hands-As my Nan used to say. I agree with you, i don't believe in god. I was brought up in a household with two catholic parents, my father denounced religion as he became an International Socialist and Marxist, my mother is still a Socialist but keeps her faith close and private, you can imagine the discussions that were had around the dinner table in my house.

Anyway, I do believe that religion is a concept thought out by uneducated men who were looking for an answer or control. I've heard what you have said a thousand times, I'd say that you're probably right. What i don't like is what i perceive as the belittling of faith, i know I've said it already, but i know hundreds of people with faith who don't take the teachings of the bible literally, they use faith as a way to help themselves and others. That may be misguided or even presumptuous in thought, i don't know. My opinions are based on the people on the ground, not those at the top who have been guilty of manipulating the poor and cosying up to Fascism and treating woman like shit. I hear so many people who are sure of themselves and dismissive of others because of what they may or may not believe in, disagree by all means, although proving people wrong with faith is as easy as taking a rattle from a baby and i sometimes think that there's an element of bullying involved, although for a long time the shoe was certainly on the other foot, still is in some of the poorest and least educated countries. Time to go

The Devil makes work for idle hands-A slip-or maybe not....

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Ok, I've not long got in from a 7am start and I've got to be back out again at 5 for a 10.30 finish-God makes work for idle hands-As my Nan used to say. I agree with you, i don't believe in god. I was brought up in a household with two catholic parents, my father denounced religion as he became an International Socialist and Marxist, my mother is still a Socialist but keeps her faith close and private, you can imagine the discussions that were had around the dinner table in my house.

Anyway, I do believe that religion is a concept thought out by uneducated men who were looking for an answer or control. I've heard what you have said a thousand times, I'd say that you're probably right. What i don't like is what i perceive as the belittling of faith, i know I've said it already, but i know hundreds of people with faith who don't take the teachings of the bible literally, they use faith as a way to help themselves and others. That may be misguided or even presumptuous in thought, i don't know. My opinions are based on the people on the ground, not those at the top who have been guilty of manipulating the poor and cosying up to Fascism and treating woman like shit. I hear so many people who are sure of themselves and dismissive of others because of what they may or may not believe in, disagree by all means, although proving people wrong with faith is as easy as taking a rattle from a baby and i sometimes think that there's an element of bullying involved, although for a long time the shoe was certainly on the other foot, still is in some of the poorest and least educated countries. Time to go

Thanks for your measured and polite reply. My perspective is this:
We, as human being, have been gifted the power of intellect and it's about time that we grew up and applied critical analysis to everything we are told. We should not be encouraged to remain in a childlike state and believe that tomes are the word of a deity. All book and collections thereof have been written by man/men and what is stated is fact simply isn't.
Virgin births, talking snakes, dieties with goat or elephant heads, gods with multiple limbs, the notion of an afterlife, miracles, the world resting on tortoises, devils, demons etc etc.
Many educated people in the past have been vilified, tortured and disenfranchised as a result of explaining away natural phenomena with science (aka knowledge) and to this day billions of people are controlled or influenced by the religion that was passed on to them as a child.
What they eat, what they wear, what they can't do on certain days and how their religion is the only true one, that non-believers in their particular religion will not reach heaven/paradise/the afterlife. Many religions foster an 'us and them' mentality between their followers and those who aren't. Evolution is still disputed by many religious authorities when mankind has the intellect to send man to the moon and zap some cancers using scientific technology built on some of the knowledge that scientists like Galileo and Copernicus were punished for. Intolerance of homosexuality abounds in many religions and among some political political parties close to them - and religious movements tend to be dominated by men (Popes, bishops, Dalai Lamas, vicars, Buddhist priests etc) and women are often discriminated against and not permitted to share space with men in many circumstances.
Religions are essentially folklore passed of as truth - and I'm afraid that indoctrinating children with a religion has a great foothold over them when they are formulating their view of the world. It's called indoctrination, of course.
Religions by their very nature are an example of schism upon schism. You only have to see the incredible amount of flavours of Abrahamism, which itself based many of its stories on previous religions. Religions are largely about unknown men who wrote down things centuries ago and in an age where the average person did not understand much about what their masters foisted on them as being created by deities and spirits. So-called 'holy books' are often collections that have been chopped and changed throughout the centuries by religious authorities and different compilations have been adopted by different schisms of the same overarching religion. (The latter situation seems to be so little known by many believers). Even the main characters are assigned different levels of importance when one compares one collection with another. It all points to the fact that religion is man-made and that there is absolutely zero evidence of deities.
Stories of miracles are mentioned in various tomes but they seem to be sadly lacking in this age where we would know about them. No deity intervened during the holocaust but the victims of that despicable part of history were indoctrinated to believe in their forbears being able to cross the Red Sea, which parted for them.
By the way, it is interesting to hear of believers of various religions now trying to explain that some of the stories in their holy books merely being allegories, This is a very new phenomenon for me as I attended various schools and churches as a boy, and no-one ever conveyed Bible stories as anything other that fact. And even my very good friend, who is a lay preacher, has experienced schisms in churches he preached in - as some clergyman in the same building believe the Bible to be literal truth and others don't. I think those who are in the 'allegory camp' have a problem in that it must be very complicated in where they choose to draw the line between fact and fiction.

My case against religion (and I know that it has some positive sides) is that encourages infantilism, ignorance, parochialism,fantasy and false hope.
It divides people and deters them from critical thought. It stops many people doing things that have no detrimental effect on anyone or anything. It often denies science and intellectual enlightenment

For me, there is no substitute for overarching altruism, critical thinking and not being controlled in anyway by primitive dogmas determined by men in centuries past.

For me, religion is an insult to one's intelligence.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Thanks for your measured and polite reply. My perspective is this:
We, as human being, have been gifted the power of intellect and it's about time that we grew up and applied critical analysis to everything we are told. We should not be encouraged to remain in a childlike state and believe that tomes are the word of a deity. All book and collections thereof have been written by man/men and what is stated is fact simply isn't.
Virgin births, talking snakes, dieties with goat or elephant heads, gods with multiple limbs, the notion of an afterlife, miracles, the world resting on tortoises, devils, demons etc etc.
Many educated people in the past have been vilified, tortured and disenfranchised as a result of explaining away natural phenomena with science (aka knowledge) and to this day billions of people are controlled or influenced by the religion that was passed on to them as a child.
What they eat, what they wear, what they can't do on certain days and how their religion is the only true one, that non-believers in their particular religion will not reach heaven/paradise/the afterlife. Many religions foster an 'us and them' mentality between their followers and those who aren't. Evolution is still disputed by many religious authorities when mankind has the intellect to send man to the moon and zap some cancers using scientific technology built on some of the knowledge that scientists like Galileo and Copernicus were punished for. Intolerance of homosexuality abounds in many religions and among some political political parties close to them - and religious movements tend to be dominated by men (Popes, bishops, Dalai Lamas, vicars, Buddhist priests etc) and women are often discriminated against and not permitted to share space with men in many circumstances.
Religions are essentially folklore passed of as truth - and I'm afraid that indoctrinating children with a religion has a great foothold over them when they are formulating their view of the world. It's called indoctrination, of course.
Religions by their very nature are an example of schism upon schism. You only have to see the incredible amount of flavours of Abrahamism, which itself based many of its stories on previous religions. Religions are largely about unknown men who wrote down things centuries ago and in an age where the average person did not understand much about what their masters foisted on them as being created by deities and spirits. So-called 'holy books' are often collections that have been chopped and changed throughout the centuries by religious authorities and different compilations have been adopted by different schisms of the same overarching religion. (The latter situation seems to be so little known by many believers). Even the main characters are assigned different levels of importance when one compares one collection with another. It all points to the fact that religion is man-made and that there is absolutely zero evidence of deities.
Stories of miracles are mentioned in various tomes but they seem to be sadly lacking in this age where we would know about them. No deity intervened during the holocaust but the victims of that despicable part of history were indoctrinated to believe in their forbears being able to cross the Red Sea, which parted for them.
By the way, it is interesting to hear of believers of various religions now trying to explain that some of the stories in their holy books merely being allegories, This is a very new phenomenon for me as I attended various schools and churches as a boy, and no-one ever conveyed Bible stories as anything other that fact. And even my very good friend, who is a lay preacher, has experienced schisms in churches he preached in - as some clergyman in the same building believe the Bible to be literal truth and others don't. I think those who are in the 'allegory camp' have a problem in that it must be very complicated in where they choose to draw the line between fact and fiction.

My case against religion (and I know that it has some positive sides) is that encourages infantilism, ignorance, parochialism,fantasy and false hope.
It divides people and deters them from critical thought. It stops many people doing things that have no detrimental effect on anyone or anything. It often denies science and intellectual enlightenment

For me, there is no substitute for overarching altruism, critical thinking and not being controlled in anyway by primitive dogmas determined by men in centuries past.

For me, religion is an insult to one's intelligence.

Blimey, did you really write that ?

Religious faith is a personal matter. I'm just amazed how other peoples' beliefs bothers so many, so aggressively.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Blimey, did you really write that ?

Religious faith is a personal matter. I'm just amazed how other peoples' beliefs bothers so many, so aggressively.

Yes, I just wrote that on the hoof. To be bothered 'aggressively' is an interesting notion....

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Blimey, did you really write that ?

Religious faith is a personal matter. I'm just amazed how other peoples' beliefs bothers so many, so aggressively.

Not really. The vast majority of believers are indoctrinated as children and, as a result, very rarely migrate to another deity from the one foisted upon them.

[Tuerto]

Not really. The vast majority of believers are indoctrinated as children and, as a result, very rarely migrate to another deity from the one foisted upon them.

I read your reply, very detailed and thought out, you must have spent some time researching. A question for you, and not one to antagonise or cause conflict, Merely curiosity. Because of your opinion on religion, do you have less respect for those that do have faith, maybe friends and Family, colleagues etc-I will understand if you don't want to answer this on a public forum.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I read your reply, very detailed and thought out, you must have spent some time researching. A question for you, and not one to antagonise or cause conflict, Merely curiosity. Because of your opinion on religion, do you have less respect for those that do have faith, maybe friends and Family, colleagues etc-I will understand if you don't want to answer this on a public forum.

I try to respect those who have religion despite my views on the subject. I have friends of various religions and I also occasionally stay with individuals and families around the world. If they say their equivalent of 'Grace' around a table I will bow my head as a matter of courtesy.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Not really. The vast majority of believers are indoctrinated as children and, as a result, very rarely migrate to another deity from the one foisted upon them.

Ah right. Well you learn something every day..