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Thread: leaked email

  1. #76

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    Don't forget the freemasosn. they'll be in there somewhere as well.
    That only applies in Scotland.

  2. #77

    Re: leaked email

    This is a tangled web that somebody will get to the bottom of in the fullness of time. Or will they as the AAIB have specifically stated that their role in investigating the incident will not be to apportion blame? If it is not their responsibility whose is it? There are many questions to be answered surrounding the pilot, the agent, the person who arranged the flight and the suitability of the plane for such a journey in known icy conditions and it needs to be clarified whether the flight was commercial or not as that raises a number of licensing issues.

    One of the oddest things that requires a fuller explanation is the report from Nantes airport that Henderson's passport was scanned through security on the night in question but didn't get on the flight. That seems unlikely to me as it was Ibbotson who flew Sala out to Nantes. However, there might be - and probably is - a perfectly reasonable explanation but I hope someone somewhere will be looking at this and the other points mentioned. Henderson's explanation that security must have made a mistake can be easily proven as there must be CCTV and a copy of the scanned passport somewhere and presumably someone will investigate this. Of course the mistake, if there was one, could have been on the part of the newspaper who reported it. Who knows?

  3. #78

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    If what you say is entirely correct, then Mr Henderson was happy to hand over the journey to someone who was less qualified to manage it than him. That would be a little risky even if it was a solo flight delivering some sort of goods, but when the "cargo" was a £15 million footballer, the decision he may have taken strikes me as a reckless one.
    I doubt he could have stopped him. If I decide not to drive into work because I don't think it's safe, it isn't my responsibility if another driver decides to do it.

  4. #79

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    So why is everybody distancing themselves from owning the plane? We know somebody owns it via a trust, it was sourced in Spain by Henderson, and is has been used for McKay's football agent business. It was also a N reg, which cannot be used for commercial purposes.
    Because they're being accused of owning it when they don't? I'm sure that once the maintanence logs are checked, the AAIB will decide whether or not the the owners are culpable.

  5. #80

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    Because they're being accused of owning it when they don't? I'm sure that once the maintanence logs are checked, the AAIB will decide whether or not the the owners are culpable.
    It is not the purpose of AAIB investigations to apportion blame or liability. ( The Civil Aviation (Investigation of Air Accidents and Incidents) Regulations 19961.)

  6. #81

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    It is not the purpose of AAIB investigations to apportion blame or liability. ( The Civil Aviation (Investigation of Air Accidents and Incidents) Regulations 19961.)
    The police will become involved if they suspect that any criminality may have occured. A civil case could also take place like the one Tan is considering, and possibly the Sala family too.

  7. #82

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    Because they're being accused of owning it when they don't? I'm sure that once the maintanence logs are checked, the AAIB will decide whether or not the the owners are culpable.
    The trust ownership is a veil that prevents us from knowing who the true owners of the aircraft are. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are, e.g. would Tan consider legal action against the trust, or would the real owners be unmasked?

  8. #83

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    The trust ownership is a veil that prevents us from knowing who the true owners of the aircraft are. I'm not sure what the legal ramifications are, e.g. would Tan consider legal action against the trust, or would the real owners be unmasked?
    The owner has already been named elsewhere. In summary, a plane built and registered in USA, owned (on paper) by a female in UK, held in Trust in UK and available for hire. A bit like renting a car, the actual owners are not usually the organisation you rent it from. This of course leads to grey areas when it comes to responsibility in a hire car accident. Driver....manufacturer, local authority, car maintenance company, other driver, driver's company (if hired for work)? I've done a lot in the past regarding risk assessment and training of staff for school trips in UK and abroad. Suffice to say it's not suprising that schools are turning away from running trips. It's a legal minefield when something goes wrong....as is the Sala situation.

  9. #84

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    I doubt he could have stopped him. If I decide not to drive into work because I don't think it's safe, it isn't my responsibility if another driver decides to do it.
    But, if the reports are correct, it looks like Ibbotson would not have been able to take the job on if Henderson hadn't paid for his hotel stay.

  10. #85

    Re: leaked email

    It may well have been that ibbotson borrowed hendersons credit card to pay airport fees in nantes which is why the authorities suspected henderson was in nantes.
    Ibbotson had 18k of debts in ccj so unlikeky he gad a credit card.

  11. #86

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by IanD View Post
    The owner has already been named elsewhere. In summary, a plane built and registered in USA, owned (on paper) by a female in UK, held in Trust in UK and available for hire. A bit like renting a car, the actual owners are not usually the organisation you rent it from. This of course leads to grey areas when it comes to responsibility in a hire car accident. Driver....manufacturer, local authority, car maintenance company, other driver, driver's company (if hired for work)? I've done a lot in the past regarding risk assessment and training of staff for school trips in UK and abroad. Suffice to say it's not suprising that schools are turning away from running trips. It's a legal minefield when something goes wrong....as is the Sala situation.
    It sounds like a nominee is involved to me, since Henderson sourced the plane, which he still operates on behalf of football agents. As you say it's a murky grey area, and hopefully it will all be unraveled at some point.

  12. #87

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    But, if the reports are correct, it looks like Ibbotson would not have been able to take the job on if Henderson hadn't paid for his hotel stay.
    I find it hard to believe that Ibbotson would have accepted the job just on the basis of 'expenses', when he was allegedly in so much debt, especially considering this was a multi million pound 'transaction'. More likely cash was paid, or was to be paid, probably kept under-the-counter so as to avoid the flight being deemed as a professional trip which would have rendered it outside regulatory rules...

  13. #88

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish View Post
    I find it hard to believe that Ibbotson would have accepted the job just on the basis of 'expenses', when he was allegedly in so much debt, especially considering this was a multi million pound 'transaction'. More likely cash was paid, or was to be paid, probably kept under-the-counter so as to avoid the flight being deemed as a professional trip which would have rendered it outside regulatory rules...
    And not necessarily cash. A few weeks later an airline ticket in the post, a nice weekend break paid for, a few bottles of single malt by courier. If the pilot has been accurately reported as being in debt, CCJs x 4, it might be the case that cash plus expenses was given the nod. Risky.... easier to trace maybe. Depends where the originator of the deal has their bank account(s).

  14. #89

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    But, if the reports are correct, it looks like Ibbotson would not have been able to take the job on if Henderson hadn't paid for his hotel stay.
    But that is expenses which Ibbotson is perfectly entitled to receive as a non commercial pilot. He can work for expenses but not profit. The other explanation is that a holder of a PPL needs to do a certain number of hours and often pilots do work for expenses just to bump their hours up to the required level.

  15. #90

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    But that is expenses which Ibbotson is perfectly entitled to receive as a non commercial pilot. He can work for expenses but not profit. The other explanation is that a holder of a PPL needs to do a certain number of hours and often pilots do work for expenses just to bump their hours up to the required level.
    I'm not sure if a weekend in a hotel would be considered a legitimate flying expense, as in it's not directly related to the flight.

  16. #91

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    I'm not sure if a weekend in a hotel would be considered a legitimate flying expense, as in it's not directly related to the flight.
    I thought he flew sala out there?

    Surely staying in a hotel in such circumstances would be an expense that is directly related to the flight?

    Otherwise what was he supposed to do for the weekend in the meantime?

  17. #92

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Father Dougal View Post
    I thought he flew sala out there?

    Surely staying in a hotel in such circumstances would be an expense that is directly related to the flight?

    Otherwise what was he supposed to do for the weekend in the meantime?
    If he was waiting for his passenger, then we are in the grey area of a commercial flight, i.e. his entire reason for being there.

  18. #93

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    If he was waiting for his passenger, then we are in the grey area of a commercial flight, i.e. his entire reason for being there.
    Still 'expenses'. Maybe a question whether those expenses pass the "wholly and exclusively" test, but still expenses nevertheless..

  19. #94

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish View Post
    Still 'expenses'. Maybe a question whether those expenses pass the "wholly and exclusively" test, but still expenses nevertheless..
    The flight would never have taken place without the existence of a requirment to transport Sala to Nantes and back, therefore I believe we are in the realms of contract law here and it's one for the legal professionals to sort out. This is besides the fact that some negligence may have also occurred

  20. #95

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    The flight would never have taken place without the existence of a requirment to transport Sala to Nantes and back, therefore I believe we are in the realms of contract law here and it's one for the legal professionals to sort out. This is besides the fact that some negligence may have also occurred
    I'm doubtful that is the case as you could say that about any flight involving passengers including the people the pilot regularly carries for parachute jumping. At best it is a grey area.

  21. #96

    Re: leaked email

    More paper revelations

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...venue-customs/

    The player agents who helped arrange Emiliano Sala’s doomed flight over the English Channel have been battling a winding up order from HM Revenue and Customs, Telegraph Sport can disclose.

    Mercato Sports – a company registered in the names of Mark McKay and the wife of his businessman father, Willie McKay – was due to face the High Court two days after Sala’s flight disappeared en route from France to Wales.

    Last night, McKay senior reacted furiously when approached for comment over the HMRC claim. He insisted the bill had been cleared and also indicated the mix-up took place because the Government had the company’s address wrong. A High Court official said a follow-up court date had been set for this month, but McKay claimed the case had been closed.

    The HMRC battle is one of two legal rows involving the family in recent months, it is understood. Mercato Sports and Mark McKay were also in dispute with Everton over a 2017 player transfer. The Merseyside club are understood to have refused to pay an agreed fee over a row involving the company’s Football Association registration.

    Sala’s single-engined flight disappeared on Jan 21. Both Mark and Willie have released statements confirming their involvement in helping arrange the flight free of charge to Sala. Willie described how he told experienced pilot David Henderson: “Dave, I need a plane.” However, part-time engineer Dave Ibbotson, 59, was at the controls when the Piper Malibu is believed to have crashed after leaving Nantes for Cardiff

    Willie McKay was made bankrupt in 2015 and an FA source confirmed that only Mark McKay remains registered with the governing body as an intermediary.

    The legal wrangle with Everton over the 2017 transfer is ongoing, according to McKay. He said the club still owed the company money, but details surrounding the case are limited. A legal report filed last September says:

    “The claimants alleged that in 2017 they brought an unnamed footballer (“AB”) to the attention of the defendant football club (“Everton”). They claimed payment pursuant to an implied contract or retainer or by reason of unjust enrichment. Everton denied liability and further sought a stay of proceedings on the basis that Rule K of the FA Rules operated as an arbitration agreement between the claimants and Everton. There was no dispute that the Second Claimant (“Mr McKay”) was an intermediary registered with the FA. In those circumstances, it was accepted that Mr McKay’s claim would be stayed. However, the position as regards the First Claimant (“Mercato”) was less clear.”

    Last night Willie McKay attacked The Telegraph for looking into his company’s business dealings, but the agent had voluntarily provided details about his activities a day earlier.

    In messages giving unique insight into the vast figures and politics behind a Premier League transfer, McKay had sent L’Equipe newspaper a copy of an email he had sent to Sala just two weeks before the Argentine died.

    The message suggests the player’s mother could claim £1 million if he agreed to sign from Nantes. McKay then tells Sala that Neil Warnock had “fallen in love with you” because the Argentine was a “typical English centre-forward, like Drogba or Alan Shearer”.

    McKay added in the letter: “It is said that you did not want to go to Cardiff. It is probably our fault because we have said in the media that other clubs like West Ham, Everton, etc were interested in order to create an interest around you.”

    McKay suggests he can eventually get Sala a move to “Manchester, Liverpool, Chelsea, and Liverpool” should he sign for Cardiff. He wrote on Jan 8: “We are not interested in personal affairs; finances, holidays, baby-sitting, that is not our business.”

    McKay referenced the multi-million pound deals that his family had been involved in, adding: “We make transfers! More than 600 until today, from Didier Drogba, to (Nicolas) Anelka, (Dimitri) Payet, (Jean Michael) Seri, (Andre-Frank Zambo) Anguissa. Let us introduce you to the way we operate and how we came to this Cardiff City saga.

    “We work for clubs in France, and for players who want to be transferred to England. As far as you are concerned, we have talked to all the clubs, including Manchester, Chelsea, Liverpool. We think you could end up in such clubs. We approached Nantes, as we do with many players in other clubs, to obtain the mandate of sale.

    “We are not preventing you from working with another agent, but most players are very satisfied with our mediation. We do not say ‘we are like a father to a son to our players’. No, if you had not been a footballer, these people would not be interested in you. In the end they are only interested in the money. What we all want a lot of, of course. That’s why we like to work with just the clubs. No sentiment, we’re just doing business.”

    The emails were initially published in French newspaper L’Equipe. McKay told The Telegraph: “I sent the emails to L’Equipe because I want the truth to come out. This is out how it works.” He said his family had been left “devastated” by events over the last week.

    Crash investigators are poised to launch a sea-bed search after indicating the single-engined aircraft came down somewhere off the coast of Surtainville, on the Cotentin Peninsula. Cushions from two seats believed to belong to the were discovered on a beach about 20 miles from the last known position of the aircraft.

  22. #97

    Re: leaked email

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    I'm doubtful that is the case as you could say that about any flight involving passengers including the people the pilot regularly carries for parachute jumping. At best it is a grey area.
    Are you talking about private parachute clubs whose members share the associated costs equally among themselves and generally use volunteer pilots, or those who offer gift vouchers to the general public in lieu of payment?

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