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Thread: So you want to stay in the EU?

  1. #61

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    It's about intelligence sharing. The intelligence won't be shared with us. Of course, whilst not wanting to denegrate the security services, they failed to monitor the purpetrators of the Westminster attack, the London Bridge attack and the 7/7 bombings. Intelligence gathering and minitoring of suspects requires a collaborative approach, and to cut off one of the best supplies of intelliegnce is not helpfull.
    The American secret services unfortunately must have failed on the 911 attacks and that was about 3,000 dead and 6,000 injured.

    Certain things you can share but other things perhaps not, the British and Pearl Harbor, did the British win the war because it happened or was it a conspiracy theory that we knew ?, I don't do conspiracy theories but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised if we did know, we just like other countries have to look out for ourselves, from the outside it seems like we trust the Americans far too much, unless we are good at playing the game and let them and everyone else think that, lol.

  2. #62

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    Congress in the USA has 535 members, 100 in the Senate and 435 Representatives. There's over 1,000 more lawmakers here, 650 MPs and over 900 in the Lords. Why Britain requires so many to govern a population one-fifth that of the USA is anyone's guess.

    Concerning intelligence agencies, I often wonder why they never theorise over just why it is that ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, Al-Qaeda, etc, never launch attacks against our Israeli friends. According to a former Israel defence minister, ISIS did mistakenly attack their forces once in the Golan Heights... and then apologised for doing so.

    Isis fighters ‘attacked Israel Defense Forces unit, then apologised' claims former commander: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a7700616.html
    Its just not Israel its America and the English led UK Government that seem to be on ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, Al-Qaeda side.

  3. #63

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    The American secret services unfortunately must have failed on the 911 attacks and that was about 3,000 dead and 6,000 injured.

    Certain things you can share but other things perhaps not, the British and Pearl Harbor, did the British win the war because it happened or was it a conspiracy theory that we knew ?, I don't do conspiracy theories but I would not be in the slightest bit surprised if we did know, we just like other countries have to look out for ourselves, from the outside it seems like we trust the Americans far too much, unless we are good at playing the game and let them and everyone else think that, lol.
    The America feeds the UK intelligence too. During the Falklands War they were helping us behind the scenes whilst conveying a more neutral stance on the world stage.

  4. #64

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    Its just not Israel its America and the English led UK Government that seem to be on ISIS, Al-Nusra Front, Al-Qaeda side.
    No surprises there then.

  5. #65

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    No surprises there then.
    When they had a vote in Parliament about going to war in Syria, the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish mps literally on mass voted against boots on the ground, the English mps voted for war, for once the Celtic mps just managed to win the day, usually that is not the case due to weight of numbers, the English press did not report it in that light.

  6. #66

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    When they had a vote in Parliament about going to war in Syria, the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish mps literally on mass voted against boots on the ground, the English mps voted for war, for once the Celtic mps just managed to win the day, usually that is not the case due to weight of numbers, the English press did not report it in that light.
    Wasn't it the case that almost a third of Welsh MPs voted with the government? Something like 15 out of 37? Hardly a landslide.

  7. #67

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Wasn't it the case that almost a third of Welsh MPs voted with the government? Something like 15 out of 37? Hardly a landslide.
    Scotland - 49 against war and 7 for war.
    Wales - 31 against war and 7 for war [ 2 abstained].
    NI - 10 against war and 0 for war.
    England - only 195 against war and a whopping 258 for war.

    Result 285-272 against the war, there were 3 Lib-Dem mps in Wales in coalition with Cameron and not one voted for him and war, one even voted against him, even a Conservative mp in Wales voted against war, he didn't abstain he voted against, in Scotland there is only one Tory mp and he voted against war, not abstained but voted against (100% of Tory mps in Scotland vote against the war hey), all the SNP and all Plaid mps voted against war, even the DUP voted against war, some abstained and some voted against.

  8. #68

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    Scotland - 49 against war and 7 for war.
    Wales - 31 against war and 7 for war [ 2 abstained].
    NI - 10 against war and 0 for war.
    England - only 195 against war and a whopping 258 for war.

    Result 285-272 against the war, there were 3 Lib-Dem mps in Wales in coalition with Cameron and not one voted for him and war, one even voted against him, even a Conservative mp in Wales voted against war, he didn't abstain he voted against, in Scotland there is only one Tory mp and he voted against war, not abstained but voted against (100% of Tory mps in Scotland vote against the war hey), all the SNP and all Plaid mps voted against war, even the DUP voted against war, some abstained and some voted against.
    Am I missing something (quite possible!) as it states here that 15 Welsh MPs voted in favour of the government? Apols if I'm on the wrong horse. Rushing about, you know

  9. #69

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    Am I missing something (quite possible!) as it states here that 15 Welsh MPs voted in favour of the government? Apols if I'm on the wrong horse. Rushing about, you know
    Aug 2013 vote in the HoC Cameron failed to persuade the House to intervene in Syria.

  10. #70

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    So who wants to remain in the EU then?

  11. #71

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    That outburst was very unfair on Donald Tusk's part, surely endlessly parroting "take back control" and "project fear" constitutes a well thought out plan?
    The outburst was pathetic , and child like , this type of soundbite has littered this deal ,it simply feeds the leave campaign , its very belittling ,if a second vote was allowed or ever happened it woudl fuel those leave vote upwards

  12. #72

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    The outburst was pathetic , and child like , this type of soundbite has littered this deal ,it simply feeds the leave campaign , its very belittling ,if a second vote was allowed or ever happened it woudl fuel those leave vote upwards
    The reporting of the quote was childlike and pathetic. Tusk's (full) quote spoke of many people's frustration with this shambolic process that has no real end in sight. The Tory press continue to report the EU as the enemy and you (and the OP) seem to buy it. It's dispiriting to see.

  13. #73

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    The outburst was pathetic , and child like , this type of soundbite has littered this deal ,it simply feeds the leave campaign , its very belittling ,if a second vote was allowed or ever happened it woudl fuel those leave vote upwards
    He's right though isn't he? Politicians campaigning for something should have some idea how they would go about implementing it. Do you disagree with that?

  14. #74

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Harry Monk View Post
    It's about intelligence sharing. The intelligence won't be shared with us. Of course, whilst not wanting to denegrate the security services, they failed to monitor the purpetrators of the Westminster attack, the London Bridge attack and the 7/7 bombings. Intelligence gathering and minitoring of suspects requires a collaborative approach, and to cut off one of the best supplies of intelliegnce is not helpfull.
    If its a dick waving contest, the brigade across the channel has failed in, France, Belgium, Germany, as a starter for 10, I,m not sure who wants to cut the collaborative approach, is it a policy of the UK to cut collaboration post Brexit ?. Totally agree that a collaborative approach if abandoned is not a good thing.

  15. #75

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebirdman Of Alcathays View Post
    The reporting of the quote was childlike and pathetic. Tusk's (full) quote spoke of many people's frustration with this shambolic process that has no real end in sight. The Tory press continue to report the EU as the enemy and you (and the OP) seem to buy it. It's dispiriting to see.
    Well said.

  16. #76

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    The outburst was pathetic , and child like , this type of soundbite has littered this deal ,it simply feeds the leave campaign , its very belittling ,if a second vote was allowed or ever happened it woudl fuel those leave vote upwards
    Over the last few years we’ve had from the likes of Johnson, Farage, Hunt, Rees Mogg references in regards to EU things like Hitler, Nazis, EUSSR and other xenophobic type language.

    Tusk said quite rightly that the people who started this process without a plan to ensure safety of UK citizens quite rightly deserve a special place in Hell. I couldn’t. Agree with him more. There was a woman on twitter talking about the fear she has of a no deal die to her medical supplies she’s recliner on.

    Imagine the stress she’s under at the moment?

    As per usual their was faux outrage and misquotes from the usual sort who are responsible for this mess.

    So **** these plastic patriots who I see as committing treason and once they’re ****ed **** them again.

  17. #77

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Apologies fir a few typos above

  18. #78

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    When they had a vote in Parliament about going to war in Syria, the Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish mps literally on mass voted against boots on the ground, the English mps voted for war, for once the Celtic mps just managed to win the day, usually that is not the case due to weight of numbers, the English press did not report it in that light.
    Thinking about the subject in hand, I calculated that, in the EU referendum, of those that voted, once England reached 60% in favour one way or another, the rest of the UK could have voted 100% the opposite way, yet England would have won.

    I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed in future referenda. Because of its size, what England wants, it gets. That means the rest of the UK has, in reality, little say. England is never going to agree to diminish its say within the UK, yet that marginalises the rest of the UK.

  19. #79

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Thinking about the subject in hand, I calculated that, in the EU referendum, of those that voted, once England reached 60% in favour one way or another, the rest of the UK could have voted 100% the opposite way, yet England would have won.

    I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed in future referenda. Because of its size, what England wants, it gets. That means the rest of the UK has, in reality, little say. England is never going to agree to diminish its say within the UK, yet that marginalises the rest of the UK.
    Yip, that needs to be addressed but will they ?

    Wales voted to 'leave' the EU but about a quarter of the population of Wales was born in England, would Wales have voted 'Leave' otherwise ?[Scotland hardly has any English born in comparison], also the incomers tend to be old, about half of all over 65s in Wales are from England and the old tended to voted for Brexit.
    I felt the UK had the potential to breakup a couple of decades ago, due to Scotland and Wales having to put up with perpetual right wing Westminster Governments after Labour became a right wing party, things have changed over those last 20 years with immigration from England into Wales on the one hand helping too tie Wales to England, but on the other hand the Scots voting for a separatist party in huge numbers and now getting dragged out of Europe against their will after only just missing out on an independence vote after dubious practices and then we have the birth rate in the North of Ireland eating into the unionist gerrymandering figures as well as the Republic doing well and UK not doing so well and they are getting dragged out of the EU against their wishes then the union might well be on its last legs in its present form.

    If Scotland and N.Ireland go then what will become of Wales I wonder ?

  20. #80

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    Yip, that needs to be addressed but will they ?

    Wales voted to 'leave' the EU but about a quarter of the population of Wales was born in England, would Wales have voted 'Leave' otherwise ?[Scotland hardly has any English born in comparison], also the incomers tend to be old, about half of all over 65s in Wales are from England and the old tended to voted for Brexit.
    I felt the UK had the potential to breakup a couple of decades ago, due to Scotland and Wales having to put up with perpetual right wing Westminster Governments after Labour became a right wing party, things have changed over those last 20 years with immigration from England into Wales on the one hand helping too tie Wales to England, but on the other hand the Scots voting for a separatist party in huge numbers and now getting dragged out of Europe against their will after only just missing out on an independence vote after dubious practices and then we have the birth rate in the North of Ireland eating into the unionist gerrymandering figures as well as the Republic doing well and UK not doing so well and they are getting dragged out of the EU against their wishes then the union might well be on its last legs in its present form.

    If Scotland and N.Ireland go then what will become of Wales I wonder ?
    I can answer the last para ,not very well ,looking at the current part time ,management we have in place.

    Unlike Scotland we have no big exports other than farming and financial services, 26% of those employedin Wales are in public sector jobs ,which need self financing, when faced with those public sector burdens, the political pressures become tough, as you need to generate wealth from the private sector though business taxes , or up the tax burden of everyone in Wales to finance it.

    Then you have the moans because we pay too much tax , or businesses move away, to avoid things like cooperation taxes.

    We need to be careful what we wish for.

    We could become a Singapore ,lower business taxes and change politically as a nation and attract business away from England ,however we may then not get a favourable trade tariff from the new non European state of England ,who have their own farmers and financial institutions ,not so easy for Wales in my humble view ??

  21. #81

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I can answer the last para ,not very well ,looking at the current part time ,management we have in place.

    Unlike Scotland we have no big exports other than farming and financial services, 26% of those employedin Wales are in public sector jobs ,which need self financing, when faced with those public sector burdens, the political pressures become tough, as you need to generate wealth from the private sector though business taxes , or up the tax burden of everyone in Wales to finance it.

    Then you have the moans because we pay too much tax , or businesses move away, to avoid things like cooperation taxes.

    We need to be careful what we wish for.

    We could become a Singapore ,lower business taxes and change politically as a nation and attract business away from England ,however we may then not get a favourable trade tariff from the new non European state of England ,who have their own farmers and financial institutions ,not so easy for Wales in my humble view ??
    Wales has resources that countries will fight wars over like water and energy, we export water but get Porthcawl for it, energy we have coal, shale gas, some of the largest tides in the world and plenty of wind, we are very rich in natural resources, we have plenty of farm land, we have massive potential for tourism what with our beaches, castles, scenery etc, there are equally small [smaller in some cases] independent successful countries of similar size or population to Wales.


    Nothing against our friends that we share a land border with but the way they are going - only looking after the rich of their population [and our] population we would be better off on our own, time to take steps in that direction.

  22. #82

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2 View Post
    Over the last few years we’ve had from the likes of Johnson, Farage, Hunt, Rees Mogg references in regards to EU things like Hitler, Nazis, EUSSR and other xenophobic type language.

    Tusk said quite rightly that the people who started this process without a plan to ensure safety of UK citizens quite rightly deserve a special place in Hell. I couldn’t. Agree with him more. There was a woman on twitter talking about the fear she has of a no deal die to her medical supplies she’s recliner on.

    Imagine the stress she’s under at the moment?

    As per usual their was faux outrage and misquotes from the usual sort who are responsible for this mess.

    So **** these plastic patriots who I see as committing treason and once they’re ****ed **** them again.
    I'm much more a Remainer now, but I could easily have voted Leave back in 2016. The main reason I didn't was that I didn't want to vote on the same side as Nigel Farage or people who say England when they are talking about the UK - I can remember listening to a radio debate a few weeks before the vote from Margate I think it was, where it seemed that all of the leavers who spoke did so solely in terms of England (there were plenty of other times I wondered if we were allowed to vote in Wales when I heard English leavers being interviewed but that one was the worst).

    That said, I don't go along with the theory that Wales voted Leave because there are so many English born people here. I've been living in the Rhondda for ten months now and in some ways it's been an eye opener, because although I like it here, there is a lot of deprivation and it's easy to see how, given the chance of a vote between the status quo (which, essentially, remain was) and a new start, people living in less affluent areas after nearly a decade of austerity would opt for the latter.

    I happen to think they picked the wrong "villain" though, because the unpopular policies they voted against were, mainly, domestic ones and when you think of it, it takes a special kind of political naivety and arrogance to hold such a vote at such a time if your preference was to remain, but that's what David Cameron did because he's a Conservative and, as has been the case for the last forty years, party comes before country for a Tory when it comes to Europe.

    About fifteen years ago, I can remember reading that, after a few decades under the likes of Heath, Thatcher and Major, the Conservative party was becoming as "toff" dominated as it had been at any time since the days of MacMillan and Douglas-Home. Cameron was one sort of toff - lazy, a trimmer and a huge superiority complex, but the likes of those CardiffIrish2 lists are, basically, toffs as well and the idea of them being at the forefront of some working class revolt (as the Referendum result is often described as by Leavers) is hilarious - Nigel, Boris and Jacob taking up the cudgels for the downtrodden? Yeah, right.

    If those three (with a few others) were who Donald Tusk had in mind, then I agree with him entirely.

  23. #83

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I'm much more a Remainer now, but I could easily have voted Leave back in 2016. The main reason I didn't was that I didn't want to vote on the same side as Nigel Farage or people who say England when they are talking about the UK - I can remember listening to a radio debate a few weeks before the vote from Margate I think it was, where it seemed that all of the leavers who spoke did so solely in terms of England (there were plenty of other times I wondered if we were allowed to vote in Wales when I heard English leavers being interviewed but that one was the worst).

    That said, I don't go along with the theory that Wales voted Leave because there are so many English born people here. I've been living in the Rhondda for ten months now and in some ways it's been an eye opener, because although I like it here, there is a lot of deprivation and it's easy to see how, given the chance of a vote between the status quo (which, essentially, remain was) and a new start, people living in less affluent areas after nearly a decade of austerity would opt for the latter.

    I happen to think they picked the wrong "villain" though, because the unpopular policies they voted against were, mainly, domestic ones and when you think of it, it takes a special kind of political naivety and arrogance to hold such a vote at such a time if your preference was to remain, but that's what David Cameron did because he's a Conservative and, as has been the case for the last forty years, party comes before country for a Tory when it comes to Europe.

    About fifteen years ago, I can remember reading that, after a few decades under the likes of Heath, Thatcher and Major, the Conservative party was becoming as "toff" dominated as it had been at any time since the days of MacMillan and Douglas-Home. Cameron was one sort of toff - lazy, a trimmer and a huge superiority complex, but the likes of those CardiffIrish2 lists are, basically, toffs as well and the idea of them being at the forefront of some working class revolt (as the Referendum result is often described as by Leavers) is hilarious - Nigel, Boris and Jacob taking up the cudgels for the downtrodden? Yeah, right.

    If those three (with a few others) were who Donald Tusk had in mind, then I agree with him entirely.
    No argument with that at all Bob, the result for Wales as regards change was devastating in my view, if Wales had voted to remain alongside N.I and Scotland then the union state would be in immediate danger but that didn't happen, Wales voted leave 52.5% to 47.5%, we know England voted leave more strongly than Wales, whereas Scotland & N.I both voted remain quite strongly [Scotland well over 60% and N.I nearer 60% than 50%], so incomers into Wales from England on the face of it were more likely to vote leave and if that was the case and those incomers did not vote and remain happened to have won in Wales as a result even if it was 50.1% plays 49.9% then there would have been hell to play, what we see now is tea party to what would have happened in that scenario.

    But that is all by the by instead of the union breaking up now in the short term, its had a reprieve on the back of Wales until the medium term.


    You are right about people living in less affluent areas voting against the status quo and I cant blame them and you are right that they have taken it out on the wrong 'villain', they should have voted for the Green party or Plaid in General or Assembly elections in protest against the big Westminster parties but there you go.

  24. #84

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    Yip, that needs to be addressed but will they ?

    Wales voted to 'leave' the EU but about a quarter of the population of Wales was born in England, would Wales have voted 'Leave' otherwise ?[Scotland hardly has any English born in comparison], also the incomers tend to be old, about half of all over 65s in Wales are from England and the old tended to voted for Brexit.
    I felt the UK had the potential to breakup a couple of decades ago, due to Scotland and Wales having to put up with perpetual right wing Westminster Governments after Labour became a right wing party, things have changed over those last 20 years with immigration from England into Wales on the one hand helping too tie Wales to England, but on the other hand the Scots voting for a separatist party in huge numbers and now getting dragged out of Europe against their will after only just missing out on an independence vote after dubious practices and then we have the birth rate in the North of Ireland eating into the unionist gerrymandering figures as well as the Republic doing well and UK not doing so well and they are getting dragged out of the EU against their wishes then the union might well be on its last legs in its present form.

    If Scotland and N.Ireland go then what will become of Wales I wonder ?
    One reason I often hear is that Wales can't afford to leave the UK. Most economists say Britain will be worse off when we leave the EU, yet that doesn't seem to matter. I find that confusing.

    If Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK, and I'd be delighted for that to happen if their people voted for it, Wales would have a difficult decision to make. Feelings towards independence are growing here and Wales may have to decide whether it wants to stay as a shit stain on England's shoe or not.

  25. #85

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    One reason I often hear is that Wales can't afford to leave the UK. Most economists say Britain will be worse off when we leave the EU, yet that doesn't seem to matter. I find that confusing.

    If Scotland and Northern Ireland leave the UK, and I'd be delighted for that to happen if their people voted for it, Wales would have a difficult decision to make. Feelings towards independence are growing here and Wales may have to decide whether it wants to stay as a shit stain on England's shoe or not.
    Yes indeed Eric that will be the decision that might well have to be made at some point.

  26. #86

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Thinking about the subject in hand, I calculated that, in the EU referendum, of those that voted, once England reached 60% in favour one way or another, the rest of the UK could have voted 100% the opposite way, yet England would have won.

    I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed in future referenda. Because of its size, what England wants, it gets. That means the rest of the UK has, in reality, little say. England is never going to agree to diminish its say within the UK, yet that marginalises the rest of the UK.
    But Wales is just a constituent part of the UK. The same scenario happens in other countries where particular regions may vote in a contrary way to the major conurbations.

  27. #87

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    But Wales is just a constituent part of the UK. The same scenario happens in other countries where particular regions may vote in a contrary way to the major conurbations.
    Wales is more than just a constituent part of the UK, Wales is a country.

  28. #88

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    Wales is more than just a constituent part of the UK, Wales is a country.
    The word 'country' has several meanings. Wales is not an independent nation state and is simply a constituent part of the UK.

  29. #89

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    There are many parts of Europe that were once nation states or statelets in the past but which aren't now.

    Wales isn't even on the Wikipedia list of them:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...vereign_states

  30. #90

    Re: So you want to stay in the EU?

    Quote Originally Posted by trampie09 View Post
    Wales has resources that countries will fight wars over like water and energy, we export water but get Porthcawl for it, energy we have coal, shale gas, some of the largest tides in the world and plenty of wind, we are very rich in natural resources, we have plenty of farm land, we have massive potential for tourism what with our beaches, castles, scenery etc, there are equally small [smaller in some cases] independent successful countries of similar size or population to Wales.


    Nothing against our friends that we share a land border with but the way they are going - only looking after the rich of their population [and our] population we would be better off on our own, time to take steps in that direction.
    Doesn't Wales take more out the UK pot than it puts in?

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