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Thread: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

  1. #1

    AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    The report is here:

    https://assets.publishing.service.go...64DB_Final.pdf

    Not as conclusive as I was expecting. The report indicates that Ibbotson would only be licensed to carry passengers if he contributed towards the cost of the flight and while that is unlikely it is theoretically possible. However, the report leaves the question of the other licensing issues open when it states:

    "The pilot had an FAA PPL issued on the basis of his EASA PPL. His logbook and licence
    were not recovered from the aircraft, and the ratings on his licences and their validity
    dates have not yet been established."


    I would have thought this information would have been available from sources other than the pilot's logbook but presumably more will be revealed when the final report is issued.

    I am not sure whether the report takes the investigation very much further forward.

  2. #2

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    It does also say that a non-commercial fight cannot take place for the sole purpose of transporting a passenger, which I would suggest this was. No mention of the pilotís eyesight as some have speculated.

  3. #3

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Duggie View Post
    It does also say that a non-commercial fight cannot take place for the sole purpose of transporting a passenger, which I would suggest this was. No mention of the pilot’s eyesight as some have speculated.
    There was indeed reference to his eyesight, it also stated he was only able to pilot an aircraft when visibility was good as he was not qualified to fly with instruments. It also stated that he needed his corrective glasses within reach.

  4. #4

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Must have missed that bit as I read that his logbook etc. was lost and his qualifications had not yet been fully checked.

  5. #5

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    As a former holder of a PPL I think this is already as conclusive as you could get.
    He was not qualified for instrument flying.
    Bad weather ... loss of control of aircraft in bad visibility.
    Nothing more to know. Tragic and should not have been in the air. Ask other pilots.
    If you donít know how challenging instrument flying is itís hard to comprehend. It was also an old old plane making it harder.

  6. #6

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Iím assuming that no instrument flying means no night flying, would that be right ?

  7. #7

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad as a fish View Post
    There was indeed reference to his eyesight, it also stated he was only able to pilot an aircraft when visibility was good as he was not qualified to fly with instruments. It also stated that he needed his corrective glasses within reach.
    This is the bit I read about licensing.

    The pilot of N264DB held an EASA PPL, issued by the CAA in the UK, and an FAA PPL, issued on the basis of his EASA PPL. It is thought that the pilotís licence and logbook were lost with the aircraft and so the ratings on his licences and their validity, and the extent of his recent flying have not yet been determined.

    Canít see a reference to the pilotís eyesight, can you point that out ? Iím missing it somewhere.

  8. #8

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    No. VFR rating plus night rating. I had those.
    Two qualifications.
    I did not have IMC for instrument flying which is hard to say the least and requires constant attention.

    I think he flew into severe showers at night reducing visibility and he lost spatial awareness. Ideally he should have flown out of weather front and landed. Easy to say but itís clear I think that the conditions caused an experienced pilot to become overstretched.

  9. #9

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysAway2 View Post
    No. VFR rating plus night rating. I had those.
    Two qualifications.
    I did not have IMC for instrument flying which is hard to say the least and requires constant attention.

    I think he flew into severe showers at night reducing visibility and he lost spatial awareness. Ideally he should have flown out of weather front and landed. Easy to say but itís clear I think that the conditions caused an experienced pilot to become overstretched.
    OK thanks for the clarification.

  10. #10

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    The report shows the flights path, which looks like he turned around before crashing - I guess we’ll never know if that was intentional or not

  11. #11

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    The so called.
    Meandering flight path is the pilot doing his job properly trying to find clear skies to fly in.
    Itís not necessarily anything other than an attempt to avoid bad weather.
    Eventually the adverse conditions got too severe.

  12. #12

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Whereís Flier46? On the missing list since the report has come out?

  13. #13

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by splott parker View Post
    Where’s Flier46? On the missing list since the report has come out?
    Yeah - funny that isnt it. Perhaps the report didnt meet up to his forecasts/expectations after all. Either that or the 'Big Cheese' has banned him from contributing any more !!

  14. #14

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by splott parker View Post
    Where’s Flier46? On the missing list since the report has come out?
    Quote Originally Posted by dml1954 View Post
    Yeah - funny that isnt it. Perhaps the report didnt meet up to his forecasts/expectations after all. Either that or the 'Big Cheese' has banned him from contributing any more !!
    More speculation. The reality....
    http://www.ccmb.co.uk/showthread.php...=1#post4954023
    "Will be back online this evening to see how it was received by you all "

  15. #15

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Eveytime I see AAIB, I think of AAMB board

  16. #16

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    There is a pilot who posts on here occasionally, I'd be interested to get their take on the report.

  17. #17

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by AlwaysAway2 View Post
    The so called.
    Meandering flight path is the pilot doing his job properly trying to find clear skies to fly in.
    It’s not necessarily anything other than an attempt to avoid bad weather.
    Eventually the adverse conditions got too severe.
    Channel Islands weather report says freezing was present in the area at 3,000-4,000ft. The pilot descended twice with permission, so could have been experiencing some icing problems. No mayday call is consistent with a sudden uncontrolled landing.

  18. #18

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Armitage Shanks View Post
    Eveytime I see AAIB, I think of AAMB board
    Oh thank God there's someone else

  19. #19

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by splott parker View Post
    Where’s Flier46? On the missing list since the report has come out?
    I have been carefully reading the AAIB Interim Report to analyse it to see if it differs from what I already knew, funnily enough I don't see anything that I hadn't already disclosed ( if you guys can, I am here to answer whatever you think differs ).

    I didn't go On the missing list since the report has come out, I was actually in consultations about that report & now I am just wondering who will be the first to 'call me out' on anything that I didn't get succinctly right?

  20. #20

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer46 View Post
    I have been carefully reading the AAIB Interim Report to analyse it to see if it differs from what I already knew, funnily enough I don't see anything that I hadn't already disclosed ( if you guys can, I am here to answer whatever you think differs ).

    I didn't go On the missing list since the report has come out, I was actually in consultations about that report & now I am just wondering who will be the first to 'call me out' on anything that I didn't get succinctly right?
    So who are you then? Who were you in consultations with about the report and why?
    Just curious that's all.

  21. #21

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Channel Islands weather report says freezing was present in the area at 3,000-4,000ft. The pilot descended twice with permission, so could have been experiencing some icing problems. No mayday call is consistent with a sudden uncontrolled landing.
    The report states that, at one point, the plane was descending at 7,000ft per minute, roughly 80mph. Not sure if that means vertically. Also, the plane was going up and down, not just a general descent. Looks like the pilot was struggling to keep control. The pics in the report show the catastrophic damage to the plane with the engine detatched and part of the tail missing. No wonder the pilot hasn't been found.

  22. #22

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer46 View Post
    I have been carefully reading the AAIB Interim Report to analyse it to see if it differs from what I already knew, funnily enough I don't see anything that I hadn't already disclosed ( if you guys can, I am here to answer whatever you think differs ).

    I didn't go On the missing list since the report has come out, I was actually in consultations about that report & now I am just wondering who will be the first to 'call me out' on anything that I didn't get succinctly right?
    I have stated previously that I have found your posts to be of interest. However, the report is not nearly as sensational as you have previously implied. There is nothing about colour blindness of the pilot, nothing about Henderson giving the flight to Ibbotson or the fact that Henderson's credit card was used to pay Ibbotson's hotel accommodation and flight expenses such as landing fees at Nantes as well as fuel for the flight.

    Neither is there anything about Henderson lodging the original flight plan or anything in the report that would warrant your belief that Henderson and McKay would be shaking in their boots (or words to that effect) when the report is released. Indeed there is absolutely nothing to incriminate either Henderson or McKay and ,on first reading, they are not implicated at all. Of course these matters might be investigated further when the other reports are released. Another point is the licensing ratings of Ibbotson which do not appear to have been fully investigated by the AAIB as the report states emphatically that:

    "The pilot had an FAA PPL issued on the basis of his EASA PPL. His logbook and licence
    were not recovered from the aircraft, and the ratings on his licences and their validity
    dates have not yet been established."


    One thing is for sure and that is the legal ramifications of the flight will not be concluded for a very long time.

    Again I state I have enjoyed your posts but you too must be disappointed that it failed to fully justify all your conclusions.

  23. #23

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    I have stated previously that I have found your posts to be of interest. However, the report is not nearly as sensational as you have previously implied. There is nothing about colour blindness of the pilot, nothing about Henderson giving the flight to Ibbotson or the fact that Henderson's credit card was used to pay Ibbotson's hotel accommodation and flight expenses such as landing fees at Nantes as well as fuel for the flight.

    Neither is there anything about Henderson lodging the original flight plan or anything in the report that would warrant your belief that Henderson and McKay would be shaking in their boots (or words to that effect) when the report is released. Indeed there is absolutely nothing to incriminate either Henderson or McKay and ,on first reading, they are not implicated at all. Of course these matters might be investigated further when the other reports are released. Another point is the licensing ratings of Ibbotson which do not appear to have been fully investigated by the AAIB as the report states emphatically that:

    "The pilot had an FAA PPL issued on the basis of his EASA PPL. His logbook and licence
    were not recovered from the aircraft, and the ratings on his licences and their validity
    dates have not yet been established."


    One thing is for sure and that is the legal ramifications of the flight will not be concluded for a very long time.

    Again I state I have enjoyed your posts but you too must be disappointed that it failed to fully justify all your conclusions.
    I reckon they have held stuff back due to a parallel, possibly criminal investigation. That's my personal opinion.

  24. #24

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by dml1954 View Post
    Yeah - funny that isnt it. Perhaps the report didnt meet up to his forecasts/expectations after all. Either that or the 'Big Cheese' has banned him from contributing any more !!
    As the interim report is now in the public domain we are free to talk about any part of the interim report, I will pick out a few paragraphs that are very relevant that we wouldn't previously have made comments on.

    (1) At about 2015:30 hrs, N264DB started to make a gradual left turn, which was followed at
    about 2016:10 hrs by a right turn of approximately 180į. During this turn, data from two
    independent radars (Guernsey and Jersey) showed the aircraft descend to an altitude
    of about 1,600 ft at an average rate of approximately 7,000 ft/min. A few seconds later
    (at 2016:34 hrs) the final secondary radar return was recorded, which indicated that the
    aircraft may have climbed rapidly to about 2,300 ft. Two more primary radar returns
    were recorded, timed at 2016:38 hrs and 2016:50 hrs respectively, but it is not yet known
    whether they represent valid returns from the aircraft.


    A descent of 7000ft is not a controlled descent rate, an ascent from 1600ft to 2300ft in a few seconds is not a controlled climb rate They are most likely attributed to the pilot having lost control in spatial disorientation or through disturbed airflow due to Ice build up causing the pilot to be chasing an artificial reading erroneously

    (2)A PPL does not allow a pilot to carry passengers for reward; to do so requires a commercial
    licence. The basis on which the passenger was being carried on N264DB has not yet
    been established but, previously, the pilot had carried passengers on the basis of Ďcost
    sharingí. Cost sharing allows a private pilot to carry passengers and for those passengers
    to contribute towards the actual cost of the flight. Cost sharing brings benefits to private
    pilots who, by sharing the expense of their flying, can fly more than they might otherwise
    be able to, thereby increasing their level of experience. A higher level of regulatory burden
    applies to commercial, compared with private flights (such as more stringent medical,
    licencing and airworthiness requirements), and the additional requirements increase the
    level of safety assurance. Therefore, although the UK, EU and US regulatory authorities
    allow cost sharing, they apply restrictions to it.


    As already stated in my previous posts, Dave Ibbotson was a PPL that disallowed him from flying paying passengers, so the emphasis on whether he was conducting a private flight or a commercial flight is highly relevant & something I have covered in previous posts.

    (3)The pilot of N264DB held an EASA PPL, issued by the CAA in the UK, and an FAA PPL,
    issued on the basis of his EASA PPL. It is thought that the pilotís licence and logbook
    were lost with the aircraft and so the ratings on his licences and their validity, and the
    extent of his recent flying have not yet been determined.


    Having seen a copy of Dave Ibbotson's EASA PPL I know that it clearly states 'DAY ONLY' & that is due to his colourblindness & I know exactly what licence privileges he had. His licence privileges didn't allow Night Flight nor Instrument only flight. ( I still have his licence copies on file & they are the same copies that the AAIB & CAA have been given in this investigation )

    (4)The pilot had an FAA PPL issued on the basis of his EASA PPL. His logbook and licence
    were not recovered from the aircraft, and the ratings on his licences and their validity
    dates have not yet been established.


    I find this paragraph slightly bizarre because I have seen a copy of his licence & the ratings attached, so I am pretty sure that the AAIB & CAA have seen the same details as I have.

    Now, I will await the questions from anyone who thinks I put any speculation into my previous posts.... I have only ever stated facts that I could release & now the Interim report is in the Public Domain I can be part of an 'Open Chat'

  25. #25

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    The thing is, the AAIB are not there to apportion any blame, their job is to establish the facts of what happened as best as they can. The style of their report reflects this, i.e. itís a list of facts along with some explanation for us non-aviation types.

    They wonít be holding anything back pending any potential legal action because they wonít be taking any, but on the other hand they wonít publish anything they are not certain about either.

  26. #26

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Vindec View Post
    I have stated previously that I have found your posts to be of interest. However, the report is not nearly as sensational as you have previously implied. There is nothing about colour blindness of the pilot, nothing about Henderson giving the flight to Ibbotson or the fact that Henderson's credit card was used to pay Ibbotson's hotel accommodation and flight expenses such as landing fees at Nantes as well as fuel for the flight.

    Neither is there anything about Henderson lodging the original flight plan or anything in the report that would warrant your belief that Henderson and McKay would be shaking in their boots (or words to that effect) when the report is released. Indeed there is absolutely nothing to incriminate either Henderson or McKay and ,on first reading, they are not implicated at all. Of course these matters might be investigated further when the other reports are released. Another point is the licensing ratings of Ibbotson which do not appear to have been fully investigated by the AAIB as the report states emphatically that:

    "The pilot had an FAA PPL issued on the basis of his EASA PPL. His logbook and licence
    were not recovered from the aircraft, and the ratings on his licences and their validity
    dates have not yet been established."


    One thing is for sure and that is the legal ramifications of the flight will not be concluded for a very long time.

    Again I state I have enjoyed your posts but you too must be disappointed that it failed to fully justify all your conclusions.
    Vindec, I am not disappointed by the AAIB Interim Report.... I will be disappointed if the Full report isn't a more concise document that covers everything already known & what is still being investigated

    AIR ACCIDENTS INVESTIGATION BRANCH BRIEFING NOTE
    Information
    We investigate civil aircraft accidents and serious incidents in the United Kingdom.

    Intent
    We improve aviation safety by determining the circumstances and causes of air accidents and serious incidents, and promoting action to prevent reoccurrence.
    We are a “stand-alone” branch of the Department for Transport and are completely separate from the Civil Aviation Authority. The Chief Inspector of Air Accidents is responsible directly to the Secretary of State for Transport.
    We are responsible for ensuring that the UK complies with its national and international statutory obligations for air accident investigation.
    WE DO NOT APPORTION BLAME
    OR LIABILITY.
    I think this is why in the Interim report there is absolutely nothing to incriminate either Henderson or McKay and ,on first reading, they are not implicated at all, the further investigations being made will be looking at the flight organisers with a fine tooth comb. You will notice that the AAIB haven't apportioned blame or liability on the pilot either, but they have stated facts that allow the readers of the interim report to draw their own conclusions

  27. #27

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Duggie View Post
    The thing is, the AAIB are not there to apportion any blame, their job is to establish the facts of what happened as best as they can. The style of their report reflects this, i.e. it’s a list of facts along with some explanation for us non-aviation types.

    They won’t be holding anything back pending any potential legal action because they won’t be taking any, but on the other hand they won’t publish anything they are not certain about either.
    They could have withheld specific pieces of information that are part of an ongoing criminal investigation.

  28. #28

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by delmbox View Post
    Oh thank God there's someone else
    And me twice Ignored it on that mistaken basis ,then I realised it wasn't AAMB, as folks were contributing and they had brains.

  29. #29

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    I reckon they have held stuff back due to a parallel, possibly criminal investigation. That's my personal opinion.
    Wales-Bales,
    Your personal opinion is an 'educated opinion' I have come to the conclusion that very few on this messageboard have had any education as I am now wondering why I have been 'called out' a few too many times & now everything I have stated or discussed is within the AAIB Interim report that they are all reading.

    I will be waiting for the retractions of the calls of speculation from those who claimed I was speculating without any substance.

  30. #30

    Re: AAIB INTERIM REPORT

    Quote Originally Posted by Flyer46 View Post
    Wales-Bales,
    Your personal opinion is an 'educated opinion' I have come to the conclusion that very few on this messageboard have had any education as I am now wondering why I have been 'called out' a few too many times & now everything I have stated or discussed is within the AAIB Interim report that they are all reading.

    I will be waiting for the retractions of the calls of speculation from those who claimed I was speculating without any substance.
    The news outlets have been full of all the dodgy stuff, but none of it has been mentioned in the AAIB report.

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