+ Visit Cardiff FC for Latest News, Transfer Gossip, Fixtures and Match Results
Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 49 of 49

Thread: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

  1. #26

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    Stephen Benda
    Connor Robert's
    Joe Rodon
    Cian Harris
    Jay Fulton
    Matt Grimes
    Dan James
    Oli Mcburnie

    Are all good reasons to keep it going.

    And there's a rumour that two German clubs are chasing Ben Cabango (who is from Cardiff by the way) for 2.5 million

    It was be false economy to downgrade it.
    A few of them came from other clubs, and a couple may come to nothing.

    Dan James might prove to be a £10m player or may go for £4m

    At £5m a year over 7 years, then it’s not necessarily a good investment.

    But then ours had been worse since nice Ramsey

  2. #27

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    Of course Bellamy has an idea of how to play but that's my argument that it is polar opposite to Warnocks
    I can remember reading as a kid how Glasgow Rangers used to have hooks in their dressing rooms that players could hang their clothes on set a foot higher than anywhere else to try and emphasise to opponents how much bigger their players were than anyone else - it's one of the reasons that club feature pretty high on the list of teams I don't like.

    Nathan Blake said on the Wales Online podcast this week that he didn't think City fans would tolerate Cardiff trying to play like Swansea because they would get impatient with all of the passing. Based on what I've seen from Cardiff teams since 1963, I think Blakey is probably right because with a few exceptions, City have been a physical, long ball team that doesn't value possession too highly for half a century and more, so it's hardly surprising that supporters want to and expect their team to play a certain way.

    Fifty years ago, City played with two target men in Toshack and Clark and used to start games by playing the ball back to one of the full backs who would knock it fifty yards up the pitch to one of the strikers who would try to head the ball onto the other one. It worked spectacularly once at Hillsborough when I believe it was Clark who headed on to Toshack who nodded into the net to give us the lead after about twelve seconds, but most of the time it just meant that we had handed possession back to the opposition.

    Ten years later, I heard the phrase "route one" applied to football for the first time when Richie Morgan's side which had Ronnie Moore and Gary Stevens in it were described as the team that plays more route one football than any one else in the Second Division by an opposition manager.

    Since then we've had no end of pretty immobile target men who, at first, had a smaller and nippy partner playing alongside them and the plan was to either hit the big man or play the ball long into the channels for someone like Earnie, Dale or Chopra to chase. More recently, we've played with one striker who, almost without exception, has been a big target man type and, as most of them have had their limitations in terms of movement, pace and technique it has limited the way we could attack.

    I mentioned "a few exceptions" - in Alston and Evans, the 75/76 had a pair of footballers up front that meant we could attack in different ways and, albeit in the old Third Division, we played some dazzling, entertaining stuff that year. Jay Bothroyd was such a good technical player that he could make something out of any type of service when his head was right and when it was their day, Dave Jones' teams with him, McPhail and Whittingham on song were irresistible at times, while, for a short while, Kenneth Zohore looked the sort of complete player that could be the fulcrum for a more rounded and varied attacking approach.

    Most of the time though opponents have come to Cardiff knowing what to expect and I have to say that they would be a side that I'd not be looking forward to watching much if I were a neutral because they aren't usually an entertaining team to watch - however, they are my team, always have been and always will be, so I try to not be too critical about us not having as much style as most of the sides we play.

    Truth be told, the contrast in styles between how the first team plays and how all of the other age group sides at the club play is probably being looked at in the wrong way in this thread because many are saying that the first team needs to start playing like the Under 18s do to give our youngsters the best chance of breaking into the first team, but, looking at it logically, if Cardiff has an "identity" for the way they play, it's a lot closer to what we see from the first team than what the Under 18s will be coming up with in a short while when they play this lunchtime.

    Therefore, it could be argued that our youngsters should start playing more like the first team do.

    For myself, I'm at an age where I've seen far more Cardiff City matches than I will do in the future and it would be nice to get the chance to see a City team playing the game in the way I would prefer us to before I pop my clogs. I'm being selfish there, but also I think I'm being realistic, because the sort of football that has identified Cardiff City for an awful long time is becoming, if not obsolete, then old fashioned and I don't believe it has kept pace with the alternatives we now see from so many others.

    However, especially with the current squad, changing to a more considered approach, would, almost certainly require a lot of patience from supporters and Boardroom alike and that is something that is in very short supply these days - whichever way the club decides to go though, there needs to be an acknowledgement that our youth development in terms of producing first team players has been seriously lacking for far too long.

  3. #28

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawnmower View Post
    A few of them came from other clubs, and a couple may come to nothing.

    Dan James might prove to be a £10m player or may go for £4m

    At £5m a year over 7 years, then it’s not necessarily a good investment.

    But then ours had been worse since nice Ramsey
    You can't say they came from other clubs then quote the 5m price tag as that is all part of the costs though I'd say it would be closer to 3.5 - 4 million.

    They bought players like Dan James young and developed his raw potential. I believe he cost them about 300k at the time and there absolutely no way they'll get anything less than 10 million (probably more like 15-20 million) unless he runs down his contract and goes abroad.
    Even if he runs down his contract and goes to somewhere like Arsenal they'd still get about 10 million from a tribunal.

    Your 5 million over 7 years is also based on the presumption that they won't bring anyone else through for the next 7 years and though they won't so it at the rate they have this season I guarantee they'll bring a few through. (Especially if Potter remains in charge)

  4. #29

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by goats View Post
    And we all know Neil will be gone in a year.....they should be working together now planning the future out
    It's not as easy as that though mate. In a way we are cursed by Warnock's success if we want to develop are more progressive approach.

    Do you honestly think our fan base would have the patience of watching our results dip while we revamp the way we play?

    You've only got to look at some of the posts on the forums to see that our fans prefer a more "blood and guts" way of football. The owners would have to have balls of steel to see through such a change in the way we play.

    About 75% of our squad if not more would have to be replaced for a start!

  5. #30

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I can remember reading as a kid how Glasgow Rangers used to have hooks in their dressing rooms that players could hang their clothes on set a foot higher than anywhere else to try and emphasise to opponents how much bigger their players were than anyone else - it's one of the reasons that club feature pretty high on the list of teams I don't like.

    Nathan Blake said on the Wales Online podcast this week that he didn't think City fans would tolerate Cardiff trying to play like Swansea because they would get impatient with all of the passing. Based on what I've seen from Cardiff teams since 1963, I think Blakey is probably right because with a few exceptions, City have been a physical, long ball team that doesn't value possession too highly for half a century and more, so it's hardly surprising that supporters want to and expect their team to play a certain way.

    Fifty years ago, City played with two target men in Toshack and Clark and used to start games by playing the ball back to one of the full backs who would knock it fifty yards up the pitch to one of the strikers who would try to head the ball onto the other one. It worked spectacularly once at Hillsborough when I believe it was Clark who headed on to Toshack who nodded into the net to give us the lead after about twelve seconds, but most of the time it just meant that we had handed possession back to the opposition.

    Ten years later, I heard the phrase "route one" applied to football for the first time when Richie Morgan's side which had Ronnie Moore and Gary Stevens in it were described as the team that plays more route one football than any one else in the Second Division by an opposition manager.

    Since then we've had no end of pretty immobile target men who, at first, had a smaller and nippy partner playing alongside them and the plan was to either hit the big man or play the ball long into the channels for someone like Earnie, Dale or Chopra to chase. More recently, we've played with one striker who, almost without exception, has been a big target man type and, as most of them have had their limitations in terms of movement, pace and technique it has limited the way we could attack.

    I mentioned "a few exceptions" - in Alston and Evans, the 75/76 had a pair of footballers up front that meant we could attack in different ways and, albeit in the old Third Division, we played some dazzling, entertaining stuff that year. Jay Bothroyd was such a good technical player that he could make something out of any type of service when his head was right and when it was their day, Dave Jones' teams with him, McPhail and Whittingham on song were irresistible at times, while, for a short while, Kenneth Zohore looked the sort of complete player that could be the fulcrum for a more rounded and varied attacking approach.

    Most of the time though opponents have come to Cardiff knowing what to expect and I have to say that they would be a side that I'd not be looking forward to watching much if I were a neutral because they aren't usually an entertaining team to watch - however, they are my team, always have been and always will be, so I try to not be too critical about us not having as much style as most of the sides we play.

    Truth be told, the contrast in styles between how the first team plays and how all of the other age group sides at the club play is probably being looked at in the wrong way in this thread because many are saying that the first team needs to start playing like the Under 18s do to give our youngsters the best chance of breaking into the first team, but, looking at it logically, if Cardiff has an "identity" for the way they play, it's a lot closer to what we see from the first team than what the Under 18s will be coming up with in a short while when they play this lunchtime.

    Therefore, it could be argued that our youngsters should start playing more like the first team do.

    For myself, I'm at an age where I've seen far more Cardiff City matches than I will do in the future and it would be nice to get the chance to see a City team playing the game in the way I would prefer us to before I pop my clogs. I'm being selfish there, but also I think I'm being realistic, because the sort of football that has identified Cardiff City for an awful long time is becoming, if not obsolete, then old fashioned and I don't believe it has kept pace with the alternatives we now see from so many others.

    However, especially with the current squad, changing to a more considered approach, would, almost certainly require a lot of patience from supporters and Boardroom alike and that is something that is in very short supply these days - whichever way the club decides to go though, there needs to be an acknowledgement that our youth development in terms of producing first team players has been seriously lacking for far too long.
    Sorry Bob, I didn't see your post and I answered something similar to goats.

    I do get what your saying about our academy playing more like our first team though, however the problem with that is how far down does it go?

    Do you get your u12s to kick the ball long and "get it into row z"?

    However far down you decide to implement this "style" I think it would be inevitably be a barrier to attracting the best young players.

    I can't imagine there being many parents who would given the option of playing in a style that Swansea first team currently and on the whole since Martinez would opt for their child to be taught to play football in the school of Russell Slade or even Neil Warnock.

  6. #31

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    Sorry Bob, I didn't see your post and I answered something similar to goats.

    I do get what your saying about our academy playing more like our first team though, however the problem with that is how far down does it go?

    Do you get your u12s to kick the ball long and "get it into row z"?

    However far down you decide to implement this "style" I think it would be inevitably be a barrier to attracting the best young players.

    I can't imagine there being many parents who would given the option of playing in a style that Swansea first team currently and on the whole since Martinez would opt for their child to be taught to play football in the school of Russell Slade or even Neil Warnock.
    Can't argue with any of that Gringo .

    I was just trying to show that implementing the sort of changes which I believe are now required at City would be more difficult at this club than it might be at many others.

  7. #32

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    You can't say they came from other clubs then quote the 5m price tag as that is all part of the costs though I'd say it would be closer to 3.5 - 4 million.

    They bought players like Dan James young and developed his raw potential. I believe he cost them about 300k at the time and there absolutely no way they'll get anything less than 10 million (probably more like 15-20 million) unless he runs down his contract and goes abroad.
    Even if he runs down his contract and goes to somewhere like Arsenal they'd still get about 10 million from a tribunal.

    Your 5 million over 7 years is also based on the presumption that they won't bring anyone else through for the next 7 years and though they won't so it at the rate they have this season I guarantee they'll bring a few through. (Especially if Potter remains in charge)
    £5m is what Swansea themselves quoted and for the 7 years is looking back to the last 7 years. Although in fairness they did produce Ben Davies in that time.

    James is looking for a £4m clause in his new contract, so that will be the starting point. Although I’d expect the fee to be nearer £10m. He’s got 1 year left, so unless there is a serious negotiating breakthrough then that is it.
    If they bought him, I’m struggling to see how they can go to a tribunal


    £5m a year is a big gamble for a Championship club

  8. #33

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    I haven't followed City as long as Bob but since about 1990 I can't remember us being a get-it-forward style team. We either were too awful to do much of anything or played it around with some style (at times) and only recently with the two promotions have been seen as more powerful and solid. I know we like a bit of pashun and players to give their all but this can't be seen as a Cardiff thing; that's what virtually all fans want. The 40 pass move approach hasn't even been tested at first team level; you never know, people might prefer that to the lack of movement and passing ability we've put up with at times.

  9. #34

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    I may be wrong, but I think it may be harder for them to do that if we upgraded to a Category One Academy. The trouble is, if the will is not there from the club, they could easily justify not doing that by saying what's the point in spending millions more on the Academy if it isn't producing first team footballers? My own view is that there needs to be an independent review into how our Academy is run, because it's not been fit for purpose for nearly a decade now if that purpose is to produce first team players for the club..
    I would add one more thing to your comments, which is vital - for some years we have not had a manager that has belief in following this direction.
    With a multi billionaire owner, I am sure our managers simply believe that we buy our way forward.

  10. #35

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    It's not as easy as that though mate. In a way we are cursed by Warnock's success if we want to develop are more progressive approach.

    Do you honestly think our fan base would have the patience of watching our results dip while we revamp the way we play?

    You've only got to look at some of the posts on the forums to see that our fans prefer a more "blood and guts" way of football. The owners would have to have balls of steel to see through such a change in the way we play.

    About 75% of our squad if not more would have to be replaced for a start!
    Plus the last time we tried to adopt a new style it ended in disaster so the club will be wary. And that was moving on from Russell ****ing Slade.

    Trying to move on to a different style from Warnock, who is idolised by the fans, is going to be nigh on impossible.

    There’s no way a new manager, with a totally different philosophy, will be afforded the time to put his stamp on it like the fella at Norwich.

  11. #36

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by J R Hartley View Post
    Plus the last time we tried to adopt a new style it ended in disaster so the club will be wary. And that was moving on from Russell ****ing Slade.

    Trying to move on to a different style from Warnock, who is idolised by the fans, is going to be nigh on impossible.

    There’s no way a new manager, with a totally different philosophy, will be afforded the time to put his stamp on it like the fella at Norwich.
    Maybe the ex Fulham manager would?

  12. #37

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by J R Hartley View Post
    Plus the last time we tried to adopt a new style it ended in disaster so the club will be wary. And that was moving on from Russell ****ing Slade.

    Trying to move on to a different style from Warnock, who is idolised by the fans, is going to be nigh on impossible.

    There’s no way a new manager, with a totally different philosophy, will be afforded the time to put his stamp on it like the fella at Norwich.
    IT is only one answer to this. And it is a new owner who don’t give a **** what the fans thinks. Who has a firm belief and long term vision. Or else I agree with that. Poor fella taking over from a poor poor Warnock. I wish fans actually had enough interest in football to go in depth of what that ”man marking system” cost us. But they don't..

  13. #38

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawnmower View Post
    £5m is what Swansea themselves quoted and for the 7 years is looking back to the last 7 years. Although in fairness they did produce Ben Davies in that time.

    James is looking for a £4m clause in his new contract, so that will be the starting point. Although I’d expect the fee to be nearer £10m. He’s got 1 year left, so unless there is a serious negotiating breakthrough then that is it.
    If they bought him, I’m struggling to see how they can go to a tribunal


    £5m a year is a big gamble for a Championship club
    They bring a lot of players in from outside which they invest in their u23s. They could run Cat 1 on about 3.5 million if they were prudent.

    There is absolutely no way in hell they let Dan James have a 4 million clause in his contract. If he goes to tribunal they'll get 8 million at the very minimum.

    I believe they signed James from Hull when he was about 15 cos I remember being told about it down our academy.

  14. #39

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    They bring a lot of players in from outside which they invest in their u23s. They could run Cat 1 on about 3.5 million if they were prudent.

    There is absolutely no way in hell they let Dan James have a 4 million clause in his contract. If he goes to tribunal they'll get 8 million at the very minimum.

    I believe they signed James from Hull when he was about 15 cos I remember being told about it down our academy.
    Yes. Amazing how many people seem to think swansea produced dan james and hes from the area.

    Hes from Yorkshire and signed for them as a big deal- as they were established in the premier league at the time. Had they stayed up hed probably never have played for them either.

    Be nice to think we have some players like that for the championship next year. Hard to imagine though.

  15. #40

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    They bring a lot of players in from outside which they invest in their u23s. They could run Cat 1 on about 3.5 million if they were prudent.

    There is absolutely no way in hell they let Dan James have a 4 million clause in his contract. If he goes to tribunal they'll get 8 million at the very minimum.

    I believe they signed James from Hull when he was about 15 cos I remember being told about it down our academy.
    £5m was quoted. Maybe they can run it for £3.5m, but they don’t. The cost is £5m ... not that I care really, but that is the figure that was stated.

    Dan James was almost 17 when he signed for them .. https://www.soccerbase.com/players/p...layer_id=89708

    Not that that is important either

    As for his contract that’s the situation - I’ve no idea on tribunals or if there is an implication for Hull.


    The whole point I was trying to make is that it’s a borderline decision.

    Putting huge funds into an academy can work ( Southampton must be the prime example for a mid size club), but for most it’s a marginal success at best.

  16. #41

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Father Dougal View Post
    Yes. Amazing how many people seem to think swansea produced dan james and hes from the area.

    Hes from Yorkshire and signed for them as a big deal- as they were established in the premier league at the time. Had they stayed up hed probably never have played for them either.

    Be nice to think we have some players like that for the championship next year. Hard to imagine though.
    A fellow fan was telling me last night that Bellamy think’s Spence is ready and if he doesn’t get his chance soon we may lose him as there is a lot of outside interest in him..

    I’d hope that if we have dead games at the end of the season he and maybe 1-2 others will get a run and hopefully (especially if we go down) he’ll get a squad place next season.

  17. #42

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawnmower View Post
    £5m was quoted. Maybe they can run it for £3.5m, but they don’t. The cost is £5m ... not that I care really, but that is the figure that was stated.

    Dan James was almost 17 when he signed for them .. https://www.soccerbase.com/players/p...layer_id=89708

    Not that that is important either

    As for his contract that’s the situation - I’ve no idea on tribunals or if there is an implication for Hull.


    The whole point I was trying to make is that it’s a borderline decision.

    Putting huge funds into an academy can work ( Southampton must be the prime example for a mid size club), but for most it’s a marginal success at best.
    And the point I'm making is that something has to change in the English game.
    The academy system is not without it's faults and the respective FA's and the premier league should be ploughing more money into it. But the boom or bust situation we see in every club apart from the top 6 has to change.

    Every other country in the world makes use of their academy prospects yet here we have rich owners who are allowed to come in and make a quick buck so you have teams like Nottingham Forest, Middlesbrough, Stoke risking their very existence cos they're chasing the quick buck!

    If the culture of the league was changed and academies were taken advantage of it would make the game far healthier.

  18. #43

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    And the point I'm making is that something has to change in the English game.
    The academy system is not without it's faults and the respective FA's and the premier league should be ploughing more money into it. But the boom or bust situation we see in every club apart from the top 6 has to change.

    Every other country in the world makes use of their academy prospects yet here we have rich owners who are allowed to come in and make a quick buck so you have teams like Nottingham Forest, Middlesbrough, Stoke risking their very existence cos they're chasing the quick buck!

    If the culture of the league was changed and academies were taken advantage of it would make the game far healthier.
    Ah right.

    Well I completely missed that.

    In which case then yes. Maybe some rule changes are needed as with the way things stand there’s not enough in it for a lot of clubs to invest heavily in academies

  19. #44

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    And the point I'm making is that something has to change in the English game.
    The academy system is not without it's faults and the respective FA's and the premier league should be ploughing more money into it. But the boom or bust situation we see in every club apart from the top 6 has to change.

    Every other country in the world makes use of their academy prospects yet here we have rich owners who are allowed to come in and make a quick buck so you have teams like Nottingham Forest, Middlesbrough, Stoke risking their very existence cos they're chasing the quick buck!

    If the culture of the league was changed and academies were taken advantage of it would make the game far healthier.
    👏👏👏👏

  20. #45

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehumblegringo View Post
    And the point I'm making is that something has to change in the English game.
    The academy system is not without it's faults and the respective FA's and the premier league should be ploughing more money into it. But the boom or bust situation we see in every club apart from the top 6 has to change.

    Every other country in the world makes use of their academy prospects yet here we have rich owners who are allowed to come in and make a quick buck so you have teams like Nottingham Forest, Middlesbrough, Stoke risking their very existence cos they're chasing the quick buck!

    If the culture of the league was changed and academies were taken advantage of it would make the game far healthier.
    Dead on. The Championship in particular is an absolute basket case of a league thanks to the drop off from Premier League money. It's almost impossible to be successful without gambling a club's future on gaining promotion.

  21. #46

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by MOZZER2 View Post
    all very romantic but academys are a waste of time and money
    I wonder if you've changed your views after watching Ajax last night Mozzer?

  22. #47

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    didn,t see the ajax game so not seeing the relevance

  23. #48

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    Quote Originally Posted by MOZZER2 View Post
    didn,t see the ajax game so not seeing the relevance
    They play futsal in their academy. There you go I knew I'd win you over.

  24. #49

    Re: Why doesn’t the club invest in the academy?

    and man city do too

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •