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Thread: Blake - Talking Sense

  1. #51

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    I disagree. The style they played is basically a rugged defence with a rapid counter-attack. The reason they didn't pump the ball to nobody is because they had players capable of making the passes. We don't.
    Ok, so we couldn't make the passes, couldn't score as many goals as them or defend like them, attack like them, re-group like them, tackle like them etc, but we played like them. I'll give it to you in the loosest sense of the word, i sort of get where you're coming from

  2. #52

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    We do not play like the Leicester side hat won the title, that's a statement and a half. How many times did Leicester pump the ball to nobody, how many times were their midfield devoid of options and ideas? How many positions was Vardy in without any support whatsoever, the closest team mate 20 yards away. We did not play like Leicester.
    I think it's fair to assume that a team that won the league didn't play like another which was relegated.

    I think the reference is probably because Leicester had the 3rd-lowest possession % and number of short passes stats in the PL that season. They also had the 2nd lowest pass success rate %. So highlighting perhaps that it's not exclusively a possession/passing game that gets results in the PL. They were obviously far better though at what they were doing though than City and had better players.

  3. #53

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    The same thing that happens when every manager leaves. Football always moves on and its interest is in its uncertainty.

    At present Pep's football model is idolised but I think it is only sustainable when you have some of the best footballers and athletes in the world to implement it. Those same players would make Warnock's approach look magical too.

    We play no differently to the Leicester team that won the title - we just don't have skilful enough players to achieve in the same way they did.

    I have to disagree with posts on here that thinks it is the style we play that prevents us having success. I am hoping like everyone else that we bring in some decent midfielders who can actually pass a ball properly. I think our same overall style would then bring much better football as we could hold the ball much better from the middle of the park upwards.

    Over time we can potentially address bringing the ball out from defence too as an option but for now I'd settle for a better midfield and the defence and attack that we already have. I think our attackers would acquire a new lease of life from this.
    WOW just WOW I’m literally lost for words just when you think you’ve seen it all on here

  4. #54
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    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawnmower View Post
    It was.
    A tiny club who had something like a decade in the 2nd tier.

    That’s more sustained than most clubs of that size.
    A decade in the second tier? When was that?

    Back to back promotions in 1990 and 1991, then 5th in the second tier (Division 2 it was called) in 1992. Relegated next season.

    Why not check facts before spouting off, your examples of Wimbledon, Watford and Cambridge as sustainable is

    1) Irrelevant, you are talking a generation ago. It would be as stupid as clubs playing 3-2-5 formations in 1988.
    2) Laughable because each of those clubs failed and/or changed style very quickly. Wimbledon played some decent football in the early PL years.

  5. #55
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    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    The same thing that happens when every manager leaves. Football always moves on and its interest is in its uncertainty.

    At present Pep's football model is idolised but I think it is only sustainable when you have some of the best footballers and athletes in the world to implement it. Those same players would make Warnock's approach look magical too.

    We play no differently to the Leicester team that won the title - we just don't have skilful enough players to achieve in the same way they did.

    I have to disagree with posts on here that thinks it is the style we play that prevents us having success. I am hoping like everyone else that we bring in some decent midfielders who can actually pass a ball properly. I think our same overall style would then bring much better football as we could hold the ball much better from the middle of the park upwards.

    Over time we can potentially address bringing the ball out from defence too as an option but for now I'd settle for a better midfield and the defence and attack that we already have. I think our attackers would acquire a new lease of life from this.
    Are you serious? Cardiff play the same as the PL champions from 3 years ago? And, do you really think Warnock managing Man City would make them as good as Guardiola's Man City? There's a reason Warnock has never managed at that level, and it's not prejudice.

  6. #56

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    So exactly the same except faster, more organized and more skill. Including Mahrez, Kante and Vardy.

  7. #57
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    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    I disagree. The style they played is basically a rugged defence with a rapid counter-attack. The reason they didn't pump the ball to nobody is because they had players capable of making the passes. We don't.
    Oh yeah, you're right.

    Leicester play with 11 players, and so do Cardiff. Both have a goalie, and both attempt to score goals. Yes, these teams are exactly alike.

  8. #58

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    I think it's fair to assume that a team that won the league didn't play like another which was relegated.

    I think the reference is probably because Leicester had the 3rd-lowest possession % and number of short passes stats in the PL that season. They also had the 2nd lowest pass success rate %. So highlighting perhaps that it's not exclusively a possession/passing game that gets results in the PL. They were obviously far better though at what they were doing though than City and had better players.
    Yeah, i get it. Leicester got the ball forward quickly and supported Vardy with midfielders (very quickly) we actually didn't do that bit. Leicester also played a counter attacking game that really suited their players. I suppose the question is; could we emulate Leicester and their style back then (it has changed twice since then) and achieve relative success? I doubt it, the way Leicester played was very unique. They also had two players in Mahrez and Vardy who were/are Quality. I suppose we could emulate their style, it's probably the closest we'll get under Warnock to an actual style of play.

  9. #59

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Penarth Blues View Post
    I am hoping like everyone else that we bring in some decent midfielders who can actually pass a ball properly. I think our same overall style would then bring much better football as we could hold the ball much better from the middle of the park upwards.
    This. 100%.

  10. #60

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    A decade in the second tier? When was that?

    Back to back promotions in 1990 and 1991, then 5th in the second tier (Division 2 it was called) in 1992. Relegated next season.

    Why not check facts before spouting off, your examples of Wimbledon, Watford and Cambridge as sustainable is

    1) Irrelevant, you are talking a generation ago. It would be as stupid as clubs playing 3-2-5 formations in 1988.
    2) Laughable because each of those clubs failed and/or changed style very quickly. Wimbledon played some decent football in the early PL years.
    Cambridge has 8 seasons in the 2nd tier. Check it for yourself before you start getting all excited.

    Wimbledon were successful with the direct approach from 1982 4 promotions, FA Cup winners, 6th in the prem and then eventually went down after changing from what had got them to the top.
    Ridiculous to say they changed style quickly. 😂
    try reading the crazy gang.

    Same for Stoke. Stayed up for years on a direct approach, went down after changing, struggled last season with 2 of the best passers in the league in their central midfield.

    Burnley over achieving with a big physical side with a direct approach and Leicester won the title by playing direct on the break


    As for your ‘item 1’.. I’ve no idea what the **** you are on about.

    More than 1 way to play the game and s direct approach is a decent option for a club with less resources.

    Proven time and time again.

  11. #61

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawnmower View Post
    Cambridge has 8 seasons in the 2nd tier. Check it for yourself before you start getting all excited.

    Wimbledon were successful with the direct approach from 1982 4 promotions, FA Cup winners, 6th in the prem and then eventually went down after changing from what had got them to the top.
    Ridiculous to say they changed style quickly. ��
    try reading the crazy gang.

    Same for Stoke. Stayed up for years on a direct approach, went down after changing, struggled last season with 2 of the best passers in the league in their central midfield.

    Burnley over achieving with a big physical side with a direct approach and Leicester won the title by playing direct on the break


    As for your ‘item 1’.. I’ve no idea what the **** you are on about.

    More than 1 way to play the game and s direct approach is a decent option for a club with less resources.

    Proven time and time again.
    So we have proven that we didn't have enough quality to stay up.

    I don't know if you read a piece I wrote about scoring and conceding after promotion to the Premier League. It showed that we didn't necessarily have a lack of goals this season but we conceded far too many given our miserly defence last season. Much of the reason for us conceding so many goals was the amount of possession we allowed our opposition to have. We didn't have defenders and forwards of the quality that Burnley had. Etheridge saved more shots bar one keeper.

    Surely if we could have kept hold of the ball a little better in midfield, our defence would have been under slightly less pressure each game, opponents would have had less shots on goal and we might have stayed up. If we had better defenders and attackers, maybe the issue wouldn't be highlighted as much, but we didn't. Therefore, basics. If you have the ball, they don't. This isn't suggesting we play like the Jacks did when they went up, but it's about having some control in the middle of the park and relieving pressure on the defence.

  12. #62

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    So we have proven that we didn't have enough quality to stay up.

    I don't know if you read a piece I wrote about scoring and conceding after promotion to the Premier League. It showed that we didn't necessarily have a lack of goals this season but we conceded far too many given our miserly defence last season. Much of the reason for us conceding so many goals was the amount of possession we allowed our opposition to have. We didn't have defenders and forwards of the quality that Burnley had. Etheridge saved more shots bar one keeper.

    Surely if we could have kept hold of the ball a little better in midfield, our defence would have been under slightly less pressure each game, opponents would have had less shots on goal and we might have stayed up. If we had better defenders and attackers, maybe the issue wouldn't be highlighted as much, but we didn't. Therefore, basics. If you have the ball, they don't. This isn't suggesting we play like the Jacks did when they went up, but it's about having some control in the middle of the park and relieving pressure on the defence.
    Is Neil Warnock going to look at the stats you mention and be satisfied? Surely not. We get the idea that he doesn't value possession as highly as many other managers, but is he really satisfied when his team pass the ball to a standard that would embarrass a League One side like we did this season on our bad days (e.g. Huddersfield and Everton at home)? I refuse to believe that he is and so I would hope that, even if it still means our possession figures are under 50%, there is an acknowledgement that we need to retain the ball better.

  13. #63

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawnmower View Post
    Cambridge has 8 seasons in the 2nd tier. Check it for yourself before you start getting all excited.

    Wimbledon were successful with the direct approach from 1982 4 promotions, FA Cup winners, 6th in the prem and then eventually went down after changing from what had got them to the top.
    Ridiculous to say they changed style quickly. 😂
    try reading the crazy gang.

    Same for Stoke. Stayed up for years on a direct approach, went down after changing, struggled last season with 2 of the best passers in the league in their central midfield.

    Burnley over achieving with a big physical side with a direct approach and Leicester won the title by playing direct on the break


    As for your ‘item 1’.. I’ve no idea what the **** you are on about.

    More than 1 way to play the game and s direct approach is a decent option for a club with less resources.

    Proven time and time again.
    Are you sure that some of those division 2’s are not actually league 1?

  14. #64

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Is Neil Warnock going to look at the stats you mention and be satisfied? Surely not. We get the idea that he doesn't value possession as highly as many other managers, but is he really satisfied when his team pass the ball to a standard that would embarrass a League One side like we did this season on our bad days (e.g. Huddersfield and Everton at home)? I refuse to believe that he is and so I would hope that, even if it still means our possession figures are under 50%, there is an acknowledgement that we need to retain the ball better.
    whoscored.com is a great source of info on stuff like this.

    In 2017/18, when Burnley finished 7th, they had 45.1% possession and 70.5% pass accuracy.
    In 2015/16, when Leicester won the league, they had 44.7% possession and 70.5% pass accuracy.
    Last season we had 39.1% possession and 63.9% pass accuracy.

    There was also a comment on Stoke City's long ball game. Passing stats only go back as far as 2009/10, but Stoke's possession stats ranged between 42-44.5% under Pulis. After he was sacked, Stoke's possession stats went up to 48% and then 50% for 2 seasons. Those 3 seasons were the most successful Stoke had in the Premier League. They dropped to 43.7% for their relegation season.

    Another interesting little stat is that over the cours of the 2009/10 season, 8 Premier League teams had less than 70% pass success rate. Since 2013/14, only 3 teams have had a pass success rate of less than 70% - Palace in 2014/15, Burnley in 2016/17 and us this season.

    Since possession records began in 2009/10, no side has had as little possession as we had last season. 2 sides have had fractionally worse pass accuracy stats, both in 2009/10, after which passing in the Premier League improved somewhat. In terms of possession and pass accuracy, this season we comfortably were the worst in the Premier League this decade.

  15. #65

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    whoscored.com is a great source of info on stuff like this.

    In 2017/18, when Burnley finished 7th, they had 45.1% possession and 70.5% pass accuracy.
    In 2015/16, when Leicester won the league, they had 44.7% possession and 70.5% pass accuracy.
    Last season we had 39.1% possession and 63.9% pass accuracy.

    There was also a comment on Stoke City's long ball game. Passing stats only go back as far as 2009/10, but Stoke's possession stats ranged between 42-44.5% under Pulis. After he was sacked, Stoke's possession stats went up to 48% and then 50% for 2 seasons. Those 3 seasons were the most successful Stoke had in the Premier League. They dropped to 43.7% for their relegation season.

    Another interesting little stat is that over the cours of the 2009/10 season, 8 Premier League teams had less than 70% pass success rate. Since 2013/14, only 3 teams have had a pass success rate of less than 70% - Palace in 2014/15, Burnley in 2016/17 and us this season.

    Since possession records began in 2009/10, no side has had as little possession as we had last season. 2 sides have had fractionally worse pass accuracy stats, both in 2009/10, after which passing in the Premier League improved somewhat. In terms of possession and pass accuracy, this season we comfortably were the worst in the Premier League this decade.
    See, to me those stats are conclusive (thanks for providing them Eric). I'll be honest, I don't want my side to be another version of the Cambridge and Wimbledon teams mentioned in this thread, but that really isn't the issue as far as I'm concerned. Those figures show that, even by the standards of the sides we are being compared to in this thread, our passing was poor - that last sentence of yours says it all.

  16. #66

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    See, to me those stats are conclusive (thanks for providing them Eric). I'll be honest, I don't want my side to be another version of the Cambridge and Wimbledon teams mentioned in this thread, but that really isn't the issue as far as I'm concerned. Those figures show that, even by the standards of the sides we are being compared to in this thread, our passing was poor - that last sentence of yours says it all.
    Having looked at all the Premier League data available, I thought I'd look at Championship figures. This was slightly more awkward as they were a bit more hidden and needed calculating, but Excel makes that job nice and easy! Championship stats go back as far as 2013/14.

    Since 2013/14, the team with the worst passing accuracy in the Championship was, surprise surprise, us in 2017/18 with 59.4%. Part of the reason for this might be due to our long ball game, where 26% of all passes went long (only Rotherham in 2018/19 played a higher percentage of long balls). In that season we also played fewer passes than any Championship side in the last 5 seasons. While our long ball accuracy wasn't the worst over that time (though close to it), our short passing accuracy was the worst of any Championship side in 5 seasons. This isn't anything to do with being some sort of tiki taka passing outfit, it's about doing the basics.

  17. #67
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    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Lawnmower View Post
    Cambridge has 8 seasons in the 2nd tier. Check it for yourself before you start getting all excited.

    Wimbledon were successful with the direct approach from 1982 4 promotions, FA Cup winners, 6th in the prem and then eventually went down after changing from what had got them to the top.
    Ridiculous to say they changed style quickly. 😂
    try reading the crazy gang.

    Same for Stoke. Stayed up for years on a direct approach, went down after changing, struggled last season with 2 of the best passers in the league in their central midfield.

    Burnley over achieving with a big physical side with a direct approach and Leicester won the title by playing direct on the break


    As for your ‘item 1’.. I’ve no idea what the **** you are on about.

    More than 1 way to play the game and s direct approach is a decent option for a club with less resources.

    Proven time and time again.
    What years were Cambridge in the second tier then?

    6 seasons in 1978-84 but that wasn't as a long ball outfit. John Beck did that and they lasted just 2 years in the division. Why the fuxk are you trying to attribute the first 6 years to a style of play that they didn't adopt until the late 80s?

    Wimbledon were not a long ball team when they finished 6th. Long ball compared to Man U? Maybe. But not long ball in the way that they were on the way up.

    Also, you are selective.

    What about PNE? What about Lincoln? What about Sheff U? What about Bradford? What about Plymouth. What about Swansea? All these teams were direct in the 80s and 90s and achieved sod all.

  18. #68
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    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO View Post
    What years were Cambridge in the second tier then?

    6 seasons in 1978-84 but that wasn't as a long ball outfit. John Beck did that and they lasted just 2 years in the division. Why the fuxk are you trying to attribute the first 6 years to a style of play that they didn't adopt until the late 80s?

    Wimbledon were not a long ball team when they finished 6th. Long ball compared to Man U? Maybe. But not long ball in the way that they were on the way up.

    Also, you are selective.

    What about PNE? What about Lincoln? What about Sheff U? What about Bradford? What about Plymouth. What about Swansea? All these teams were direct in the 80s and 90s and achieved sod all.
    Bump.

  19. #69
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    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    whoscored.com is a great source of info on stuff like this.

    In 2017/18, when Burnley finished 7th, they had 45.1% possession and 70.5% pass accuracy.
    In 2015/16, when Leicester won the league, they had 44.7% possession and 70.5% pass accuracy.
    Last season we had 39.1% possession and 63.9% pass accuracy.

    There was also a comment on Stoke City's long ball game. Passing stats only go back as far as 2009/10, but Stoke's possession stats ranged between 42-44.5% under Pulis. After he was sacked, Stoke's possession stats went up to 48% and then 50% for 2 seasons. Those 3 seasons were the most successful Stoke had in the Premier League. They dropped to 43.7% for their relegation season.

    Another interesting little stat is that over the cours of the 2009/10 season, 8 Premier League teams had less than 70% pass success rate. Since 2013/14, only 3 teams have had a pass success rate of less than 70% - Palace in 2014/15, Burnley in 2016/17 and us this season.

    Since possession records began in 2009/10, no side has had as little possession as we had last season. 2 sides have had fractionally worse pass accuracy stats, both in 2009/10, after which passing in the Premier League improved somewhat. In terms of possession and pass accuracy, this season we comfortably were the worst in the Premier League this decade.
    But still finished higher than 2 teams and but for the chelsea debacle would be still in the Premier league.

  20. #70

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by xsnaggle View Post
    But still finished higher than 2 teams and but for the chelsea debacle would be still in the Premier league.
    Makes you wonder what would have happened had we been fractionally better with possession. Our defence would have been under less pressure, conceded less goals and maybe the Chelsea debarcle wouldn't have happened.

  21. #71

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Makes you wonder what would have happened had we been fractionally better with possession. Our defence would have been under less pressure, conceded less goals and maybe the Chelsea debarcle wouldn't have happened.
    I think it was remarkable how well the defence coped. They'd get hit for 5/6 and then bounce back the next week.

  22. #72

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Coped is an interesting word. Trying to analyse our defensive performance is a bit like challenging a millipede to an arse kicking competition.

    10 clean sheets was a great effort, only 7 clubs in the top flight managed more. That's got to be a huge positive.

    69 goals conceded, only 2 clubs in the top flight conceded more. That's definitely not a huge positive, especially given the number of clean sheets. Put into perspective, 69 goals conceded would usually be in the worst 2-3 in a Premier league season; there are seasons where no clubs conceded as many as 69.

    One curiosity with this is that there are quite a few occasions where teams keep lots of clean sheets but let in lots of goals. Bournemouth conceded more than us last season yet kept the same number of clean sheets. West Ham and Watford did something similar the season before and I could go on.

  23. #73

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    Coped is an interesting word. Trying to analyse our defensive performance is a bit like challenging a millipede to an arse kicking competition.

    10 clean sheets was a great effort, only 7 clubs in the top flight managed more. That's got to be a huge positive.

    69 goals conceded, only 2 clubs in the top flight conceded more. That's definitely not a huge positive, especially given the number of clean sheets. Put into perspective, 69 goals conceded would usually be in the worst 2-3 in a Premier league season; there are seasons where no clubs conceded as many as 69.

    One curiosity with this is that there are quite a few occasions where teams keep lots of clean sheets but let in lots of goals. Bournemouth conceded more than us last season yet kept the same number of clean sheets. West Ham and Watford did something similar the season before and I could go on.
    Bounced back could have been a better word. Lost 5-1 to Man Utd, kept 2 clean sheets on the bounce. It all started to go wrong at that Watford game, Warnock really dropped a bollock there. We'd won two on the spin and finally looked like we'd found a way to win. Then he completely changed it and we got hit for 5, then lost to Everton and Wolves. Curiously we never really went back to the set up that got us those wins.

  24. #74

    Re: Blake - Talking Sense

    Our defensive record away from home (31 conceded) was better than seven other Premier League clubs, but no one conceded more than our thirty eight at home. Although it never struck me very often that we were really going for it in a home game, I think we were a lot more cautious on our travels - once we got a goal behind at home, we were easy to pick off for opponents with a bit of pace on the counter.

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