Labour inching their way towards becoming a Remain party, but..............

[RonnieBird]

I'm hoping that both established political parties have had their day. They're rooted in some ideological / class struggle from the past, even though both have long abandoned their original positions and aimed for the centre with no particular aim in mind but to gain power.
People who vote for either one of them tend to do so on a purely tribal basis or because they're following some trendy media agenda.
The firebrand socialists are usually the product of public schools and privileged backgrounds ,whilst the keen conservatives often come from council estates and comprehensive schools.

At this point they like each other more than they like the British people , whom they see as unworthy thick peasants who's opinions and even votes don't deserve respect or consideration - we can see this in their actions and stances upon Brexit , but that's not the only issue over which they act as if they've been annointed to rule rather than elected .

In terms of the specific question here, Labour haven't got a clue where they stand because they have no conviction or belief other than how it effects their personal benefit - will leave or remain get them elected ?. That's all they care about, just as the other lot suddenly get committed to Brexit when the party of the same name threatens their seats.

Isn't it time people wised up to this crooked nonsense and demanded proper representation without party labels ?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I'm hoping that both established political parties have had their day. They're rooted in some ideological / class struggle from the past, even though both have long abandoned their original positions and aimed for the centre with no particular aim in mind but to gain power.
People who vote for either one of them tend to do so on a purely tribal basis or because they're following some trendy media agenda.
The firebrand socialists are usually the product of public schools and privileged backgrounds ,whilst the keen conservatives often come from council estates and comprehensive schools.

At this point they like each other more than they like the British people , whom they see as unworthy thick peasants who's opinions and even votes don't deserve respect or consideration - we can see this in their actions and stances upon Brexit , but that's not the only issue over which they act as if they've been annointed to rule rather than elected .

In terms of the specific question here, Labour haven't got a clue where they stand because they have no conviction or belief other than how it effects their personal benefit - will leave or remain get them elected ?. That's all they care about, just as the other lot suddenly get committed to Brexit when the party of the same name threatens their seats.

Isn't it time people wised up to this crooked nonsense and demanded proper representation without party labels ?

Where in the democratic world does such a system exist though?

Personally, I think that the role of private schools, the attitude of emphasising white collar over blue collar professions, hereditary peerages, the honours system and having a royal family all contribute to class division and elitism that still define the parties to a great degree. And although I am from working class stock I have never found the Labour party appealing either. The two main parties merely seems the two sides of a coin that should no longer be legal tender....

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Where in the democratic world does such a system exist though?

Personally, I think that the role of private schools, the attitude of emphasising white collar over blue collar professions, hereditary peerages, the honours system and having a royal family all contribute to class division and elitism that still define the parties to a great degree. And although I am from working class stock I have never found the Labour party appealing either. The two main parties merely seem the two sides of a coin that should no longer be legal tender....

Corrected as I couldn't edit

[RonnieBird]

Where in the democratic world does such a system exist though?

Personally, I think that the role of private schools, the attitude of emphasising white collar over blue collar professions, hereditary peerages, the honours system and having a royal family all contribute to class division and elitism that still define the parties to a great degree. And although I am from working class stock I have never found the Labour party appealing either. The two main parties merely seems the two sides of a coin that should no longer be legal tender....

Quite right - George Galloway expresses that as two cheeks of the same arse , but I much prefer your phrase and intend to steal it !
I take your points about class stuff, especially the royal family thing, but I think class consciousness is largely self inflicted so I doubt that we'll ever rid ourselves of it.

Now, in answer to your question of where does such a system exist, I don't think it does , except of course that I presume it was the natural state of affairs before someone started forming parties. I don't think though that the current absence of a "partyless " democracy means that it couldn't be done.
Maybe that should be another thread altogether ?

[xsnaggle]

Where in the democratic world does such a system exist though?

Personally, I think that the role of private schools, the attitude of emphasising white collar over blue collar professions, hereditary peerages, the honours system and having a royal family all contribute to class division and elitism that still define the parties to a great degree. And although I am from working class stock I have never found the Labour party appealing either. The two main parties merely seems the two sides of a coin that should no longer be legal tender....

In my limited experience I have found that class divisions is perpetuated more by the left wing and by communist leaning groups that by anyone else, almost to use it as a weapon and a means of arousing the masses. The problem is that the masses, (the man on the clapham omnibus) couldn't really give a toss.

[life on mars]

In my limited experience I have found that class divisions is perpetuated more by the left wing and by communist leaning groups that by anyone else, almost to use it as a weapon and a means of arousing the masses. The problem is that the masses, (the man on the clapham omnibus) couldn't really give a toss.

I can concur with the same voted Labour and been surrounded by the very same voters all my life as Wales is that clique , the envy is tangible to say the least ,if they are not carping on about the rich is the English , strangely a good number of them are very affluent /comfortable and enjoying the very spoils of capitalism they despise ,which they are not going to give up any time soon .

I do wonder at times if the rants about the rich and success , are those of guilt or just effect .

I think we should bring in a voluntary social care tax that simply goes to the very causes they feel others or governments dont contribute enough too , like too see how many of them actual give .

Or is it easy to moan , and feel good about it ?

[Wales-Bales]

I'm hoping that both established political parties have had their day. They're rooted in some ideological / class struggle from the past, even though both have long abandoned their original positions and aimed for the centre with no particular aim in mind but to gain power.
People who vote for either one of them tend to do so on a purely tribal basis or because they're following some trendy media agenda.
The firebrand socialists are usually the product of public schools and privileged backgrounds ,whilst the keen conservatives often come from council estates and comprehensive schools.

At this point they like each other more than they like the British people , whom they see as unworthy thick peasants who's opinions and even votes don't deserve respect or consideration - we can see this in their actions and stances upon Brexit , but that's not the only issue over which they act as if they've been annointed to rule rather than elected .

In terms of the specific question here, Labour haven't got a clue where they stand because they have no conviction or belief other than how it effects their personal benefit - will leave or remain get them elected ?. That's all they care about, just as the other lot suddenly get committed to Brexit when the party of the same name threatens their seats.

Isn't it time people wised up to this crooked nonsense and demanded proper representation without party labels ?

The power lies with the people, yet they vote for the same two parties year after year.