Is Labour Anti-Semitic?

[life on mars]

‘not liking the bad old Jew crosses political lines its ingrained in our nasty society to dislike someone, some race some constitutions ,its everywhere in the Labour Party and In the Conservative part and its supporters , like it or not ‘

To paraphrase someone last week.

Indeed it is its just taking me by surprise how bad it is these days in the modern society .

I always had the nasty Tories down for that anyway , but not the Labour party , I thought they were better than this morally .

[Since64]

Indeed it is its just taking me by surprise how bad it is these days in the modern society .

I always had the nasty Tories down for that anyway , but not the Labour party , I thought they were better than this morally .

Two wrongs don’t make a right but can someone tell me the difference between Anti semitism and Islamofobia ?

[Wales-Bales]

Indeed it is its just taking me by surprise how bad it is these days in the modern society .

I always had the nasty Tories down for that anyway , but not the Labour party , I thought they were better than this morally .

There is an organised smear campaign against Corbyn that's been going on for quite a while. I wonder if Boris isn't thinking it may be a good idea to hold a general election in the not too distant future?

[Yossi Benayoun]

I rarely reply to these threads anymore due to the abuse and caveman comments but the short answer is yes.

Certainly some of the current leadership, party management and some members are anti-semites.

As explained last night, it is an issue with the left with regard to Israel/Palestine/Zionism.

Respect to the whistleblowers featured last night, I was under the impression that they were part of the problem too but stand corrected.

The current situation in the UK regarding this is very concerning for me as a Jew to witness.

[life on mars]

I rarely reply to these threads anymore due to the abuse and caveman comments but the short answer is yes.

Certainly some of the current leadership, party management and some members are anti-semites.

As explained last night, it is an issue with the left with regard to Israel/Palestine/Zionism.

Respect to the whistleblowers featured last night, I was under the impression that they were part of the problem too but stand corrected.

The current situation in the UK regarding this is very concerning for me as a Jew to witness.

I actually know one of the whistle blowers , I was struck by how genuine they spoke and bravely appeared .

Interestingly there were young people speaking out , and they were new recruits , within the new Corbyn era and not employed form the old Blairite guard , so that default excuse when criticism is leveled at Corbyn is a bit tired now .

There was enough strong actual evidenced to suggest there is a real issue

It appears he Corbyn era has sucked back in those old seventies militant groups, that have harbored Anti Semitic views .

Those 20 odd Labour workers who appeared and spoke are either lairs or telling the truth.

I suggest all Labour voters should view the program and decide for your self .



https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0006p8c

All very sad for a lot of Labour voters

[jon1959]

I rarely reply to these threads anymore due to the abuse and caveman comments but the short answer is yes.

Certainly some of the current leadership, party management and some members are anti-semites.

As explained last night, it is an issue with the left with regard to Israel/Palestine/Zionism.

Respect to the whistleblowers featured last night, I was under the impression that they were part of the problem too but stand corrected.

The current situation in the UK regarding this is very concerning for me as a Jew to witness.

I missed the Panorama programme last night but what is the evidence that anti-semitism is rife on the left of British politics and why is a political view on Israel/Palestine/Zionism a cause of that? I was active in left-wing political organisations through my late teens and twenties, and later was in the Labour Party for 27 years (up to 2013) and I honestly never saw anti-semtism. A disproportionately high number of my fellow party members were Jewish, and because of their personal background were often the most active as both anti-Zionists and anti-racists - including the defence of Jewish communities and synagogues from neo-Nazis.

This stuff about anti-semitism being baked in to the 'far left' or 'hard left' or whatever other label is relatively new to me - and counter to all my experience. It seems to have appeared in the last 5 years accompanied by Dave Rich books, Guardian columnists opinion pieces and from the large pool of Blairite MPs who are enthusiastic members of the Labour Friends of Israel group.

What are you calling out as anti-semitism? If it is abuse or hatred or descrimination aimed at Jewish people because of their ethnicity or religion then I agree absolutely. It must be stamped out and anyone in Labour guilty of that should be expelled - and subject to police investigation if appropriate. I have seen examples of this and they disgust me.

But a lot of the examples and most prominent cases I have seen in the past 3 years have been allegations of anti semitism based on opposition to a political ideology (at the heart of the Israeli state that led to and excused ethnic cleansing and apartheid), or the policies of the Israeli government, or satirical social media posts that often come from Jewish critics of Israel but are denounced on a literal reading when re-posted or shared (like the Norman Finkelstein cartoon of Israel as a US state that Naz Shah MP was pilloried for). Many of the high profile cases brought by Labour against its own members had the charge changed from anti-semitism to bringing the party into disrepute - like Marc Wadsworth, Tony Greenstein and Jackie Walker - because once the mud had stuck it was clear that they were not guilty of anti-semitism.

We now have a situation where the Labour Party (and UK government) have adopted not only the IHRA definition of anti-semitism but all the examples attached to it - including a lot that are about Israel and not Jews. The BDS movement (one of the few peaceful forms of resistance open to Palestinians and their supporters) is denounced as anti-semitic (including winning a vote in the German parliament recently - though not yet enacted). Many other forms of solidarity with occupied Palestinians are also condemned in the same way. The Labour right (especially sections of the PLP), Israel and the Israeli Embassy, sections of the media (in my view the Guardian and BBC are amongst the worst when it come to this issue) have acted to move the goalposts and weaponise allegations of anti-semitism with the twin aims of protecting Israel from criticism and deposing Corbyn (either by falsely accusing him of racism or by making his leadership untenable).

One of the most troubling arguments around the conflation of anti-Zionism (opposition to a political ideology) with anti-semitism (racial/ethnic/religios hatred) is arguement from some Jewish organisations and individuals that Zionism is both an integral part of their identity (and so to attack Zionsim is to attack Jewish people) and that it has so many meanings that the term becomes meaningless. As an argument to gag opponents it has been effective - even if many socialist, orthodox and humanist Jewish people are openly anti-Zionsist. But it is also an argument that gets a free pass - as did a similar argument in South Africa for far too long - that separation and white supremacy was an integral part of Boer self-identity.

[the other bob wilson]

I missed the Panorama programme last night but what is the evidence that anti-semitism is rife on the left of British politics and why is a political view on Israel/Palestine/Zionism a cause of that? I was active in left-wing political organisations through my late teens and twenties, and later was in the Labour Party for 27 years (up to 2013) and I honestly never saw anti-semtism. A disproportionately high number of my fellow party members were Jewish, and because of their personal background were often the most active as both anti-Zionists and anti-racists - including the defence of Jewish communities and synagogues from neo-Nazis.

This stuff about anti-semitism being baked in to the 'far left' or 'hard left' or whatever other label is relatively new to me - and counter to all my experience. It seems to have appeared in the last 5 years accompanied by Dave Rich books, Guardian columnists opinion pieces and from the large pool of Blairite MPs who are enthusiastic members of the Labour Friends of Israel group.

What are you calling out as anti-semitism? If it is abuse or hatred or descrimination aimed at Jewish people because of their ethnicity or religion then I agree absolutely. It must be stamped out and anyone in Labour guilty of that should be expelled - and subject to police investigation if appropriate. I have seen examples of this and they disgust me.

But a lot of the examples and most prominent cases I have seen in the past 3 years have been allegations of anti semitism based on opposition to a political ideology (at the heart of the Israeli state that led to and excused ethnic cleansing and apartheid), or the policies of the Israeli government, or satirical social media posts that often come from Jewish critics of Israel but are denounced on a literal reading when re-posted or shared (like the Norman Finkelstein cartoon of Israel as a US state that Naz Shah MP was pilloried for). Many of the high profile cases brought by Labour against its own members had the charge changed from anti-semitism to bringing the party into disrepute - like Marc Wadsworth, Tony Greenstein and Jackie Walker - because once the mud had stuck it was clear that they were not guilty of anti-semitism.

We now have a situation where the Labour Party (and UK government) have adopted not only the IHRA definition of anti-semitism but all the examples attached to it - including a lot that are about Israel and not Jews. The BDS movement (one of the few peaceful forms of resistance open to Palestinians and their supporters) is denounced as anti-semitic (including winning a vote in the German parliament recently - though not yet enacted). Many other forms of solidarity with occupied Palestinians are also condemned in the same way. The Labour right (especially sections of the PLP), Israel and the Israeli Embassy, sections of the media (in my view the Guardian and BBC are amongst the worst when it come to this issue) have acted to move the goalposts and weaponise allegations of anti-semitism with the twin aims of protecting Israel from criticism and deposing Corbyn (either by falsely accusing him of racism or by making his leadership untenable).

One of the most troubling arguments around the conflation of anti-Zionism (opposition to a political ideology) with anti-semitism (racial/ethnic/religios hatred) is arguement from some Jewish organisations and individuals that Zionism is both an integral part of their identity (and so to attack Zionsim is to attack Jewish people) and that it has so many meanings that the term becomes meaningless. As an argument to gag opponents it has been effective - even if many socialist, orthodox and humanist Jewish people are openly anti-Zionsist. But it is also an argument that gets a free pass - as did a similar argument in South Africa for far too long - that separation and white supremacy was an integral part of Boer self-identity.

That's a good, thought provoking post Jon which I can tell you got me rethinking the conclusions I've come to about the Anti-Semitism issue more than any "official" statements from the Labour party on the matter.

Coming from another perspective is this piece from Jonathan Freedland from today's Guardian;-

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ers-rothschild

My own life experiences on this subject include remembrance as a boy of people perceived to be careful with their money being called Jews or Jewish as a form of what we'd call banter these days I suppose no matter what their religion was. Also, forty years ago, and then again in 1981, I was involved in industrial disputes which saw me occasionally volunteer to be an overnight picket outside Companies House to try to persuade the driver of the mail van delivering all of the office's correspondence not to cross our line. On one of those nights I can remember the six of us having long discussions about the "middle east situation" - opinion was overwhelmingly pro Palestine and anti Israel which, generally speaking, chimed in with my feelings on the matter.

I've never been a member of the Labour Party, but in the years following those disputes, I became as involved in left wing politics as I've ever been. Looking back, I think it was more to do with my anti Thatcher sentiments than total support of the sort of policies being espoused by the Michael Foot led Labour Party, but I was in regular contact with people who were involved in trade union leadership at a local level, as well as some who were left wing by the standards of Labour at that time and others who belonged to parties to the left of Labour and, I must say, that those pro Palestine, anti Israel sentiments were overwhelming prevalent.

Therefore, I feel Jonathan Freedland is right to point to a historic antipathy towards Jews based on a perception which has much to do with claims relating to money and power, but, as he seemingly acknowledges himself, it does not extend to the Labour leadership, and those close to it, themselves.

What I saw in the late seventies and early eighties was anti Israel sentiment, but not total condemnation of Jews, it all came within the context of the situation in the middle east and I still believe that, at heart, this is what drives Jeremy Corbyn.

However, in much the same way as I believe the Leave campaign and the Referendum outcome provided a situation whereby racists could feel their views were "respectable" and almost part of the mainstream, I feel Labour has helped create a situation whereby Jews, and anyone of other faiths that defends them, are vilified, castigated and trolled incessantly by people who claim to be acting on behalf of the party and its leader.

Of course, much of this occurs through social media, so it might be said that Labour has no control of what goes on. However, if Jeremy Corbyn's main motivation has always been from a Israel/Palestine perspective, not an anti Jew one, he, and his party, could, surely, have been more passionate in their criticism of what is blatant anti Semitism by social media users who say they are supporters of his. I would expect, and support, any party of the left which was a big critic of the Netanyahu Government in Israel, but that's far different to what has been happening for too long with those who ally themselves to the Labour Party and, in particular, Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

Labour under Corbyn have given an impression that they are tolerating Anti Semitism. I can imagine some thinking I'm being too soft by not labeling them anti Semitic, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that while observing that, just as with Brexit, the party's, and in particular it's leader's, passive approach is putting them in what is ridiculous position for the main opposition party to a Government that is unparalleled in my lifetime when it comes to sheer ineptitude.

[life on mars]

That's a good, thought provoking post Jon which I can tell you got me rethinking the conclusions I've come to about the Anti-Semitism issue more than any "official" statements from the Labour party on the matter.

Coming from another perspective is this piece from Jonathan Freedland from today's Guardian;-

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ers-rothschild

My own life experiences on this subject include remembrance as a boy of people perceived to be careful with their money being called Jews or Jewish as a form of what we'd call banter these days I suppose no matter what their religion was. Also, forty years ago, and then again in 1981, I was involved in industrial disputes which saw me occasionally volunteer to be an overnight picket outside Companies House to try to persuade the driver of the mail van delivering all of the office's correspondence not to cross our line. On one of those nights I can remember the six of us having long discussions about the "middle east situation" - opinion was overwhelmingly pro Palestine and anti Israel which, generally speaking, chimed in with my feelings on the matter.

I've never been a member of the Labour Party, but in the years following those disputes, I became as involved in left wing politics as I've ever been. Looking back, I think it was more to do with my anti Thatcher sentiments than total support of the sort of policies being espoused by the Michael Foot led Labour Party, but I was in regular contact with people who were involved in trade union leadership at a local level, as well as some who were left wing by the standards of Labour at that time and others who belonged to parties to the left of Labour and, I must say, that those pro Palestine, anti Israel sentiments were overwhelming prevalent.

Therefore, I feel Jonathan Freedland is right to point to a historic antipathy towards Jews based on a perception which has much to do with claims relating to money and power, but, as he seemingly acknowledges himself, it does not extend to the Labour leadership, and those close to it, themselves.

What I saw in the late seventies and early eighties was anti Israel sentiment, but not total condemnation of Jews, it all came within the context of the situation in the middle east and I still believe that, at heart, this is what drives Jeremy Corbyn.

However, in much the same way as I believe the Leave campaign and the Referendum outcome provided a situation whereby racists could feel their views were "respectable" and almost part of the mainstream, I feel Labour has helped create a situation whereby Jews, and anyone of other faiths that defends them, are vilified, castigated and trolled incessantly by people who claim to be acting on behalf of the party and its leader.

Of course, much of this occurs through social media, so it might be said that Labour has no control of what goes on. However, if Jeremy Corbyn's main motivation has always been from a Israel/Palestine perspective, not an anti Jew one, he, and his party, could, surely, have been more passionate in their criticism of what is blatant anti Semitism by social media users who say they are supporters of his. I would expect, and support, any party of the left which was a big critic of the Netanyahu Government in Israel, but that's far different to what has been happening for too long with those who ally themselves to the Labour Party and, in particular, Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party.

Labour under Corbyn have given an impression that they are tolerating Anti Semitism. I can imagine some thinking I'm being too soft by not labeling them anti Semitic, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that while observing that, just as with Brexit, the party's, and in particular it's leader's, passive approach is putting them in what is ridiculous position for the main opposition party to a Government that is unparalleled in my lifetime when it comes to sheer ineptitude.

Great post and can concur the same experiences on picket lines especially when you had the secondary pickets come in who didn't even live in Wales most with norther, ,cockney or scouse accents ,very troubling creatures who we had a few head to head with telling them to duck off with their political agenda and trouble making for political gain and media bites , I think they are now back in the party and is their ideology.

I was fortunate to attended many Labour / Union conferences /events , what was clear at the fringe events , whcih were usually held in the evenings after the main conferences day , attracted a lot of heavy handed political groups including anti Israel sentiment / pro Palestinian groups , unfortunately I did see see and hear anti Jewish sentiments , as there blind hatred didn't enable them to separate Israel from the Jew , as a person ,it was more too do with the Jew being a successful rich Western/USA ,world controlling entity that drove there dislike .

I have come to a thought the dislike of Jews is ingrained and the Israel issues is used as a convenient umbrella reason to hate all Israelis and Jews alike .

How the British Jewish movements and groups stayed so faithful for all this time is astonishing they must really dislike of the Tories ( quiet rightly ) ,.

Never mind, we are reaching the final flushing out process from the Labour party , of those many like minded groups and people , they now dislike , up the momentum revolution .