Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious

[AfricanBluebird]

It is meaty stuff. I should have said that my dad continued to attend church services and church discussion groups all his life - despite his opinion about organised religion. His interest in theology led to him studying philosophy in later life and he would jump around from Christian thinkers, some Islamic writers, the ancient Greeks, John Locke to modern philosophers and treat them all the same.

I rejected religion and faith very young. I then tried to work out what is the 'meaning of life' (Monty Python's take is as good as any) and concluded there is no meaning. We are just here and need to work things out for ourselves. That then led me to a social and political framework for changing the world (power structures and belief systems) so it gives as many people as possible a quality and purpose to life. Teenage idealism that has stuck for a lifetime.

(PS - I'm not Jon Candy. My photos aren't that good!)

Ah apologies to you and Mr Candy.

I hang out with such a wide range of people.. atheists, nominal Christians, Catholics, born agains, Muslims, Seiks, Hindus and Jewish people.

Because I have a relationship with them its easy challenge each other and learn from each other.

The problem, as I see it, is that everyone has strong opinions and want to force everyone to believe the same as them... but without respect and relationship, that is quite impossible.

Look at Dawkins... brilliant scientist (especially with anything to do with the eyes) but has become completely toxic and boring. Likewise many religious people are stuck in the dark ages and lost the ability to self doubt, consider and talk through issues without getting judgemental and upset.

I have no problem people thinking my belief in God is nonsense... it is nuts really - the idea of a world outside of ours... something universal and intelligent and spiritual - it goes against the logic and reason we see in front of us... and I will never ever try and convince people there is a God but I do enjoy debating it.

That's why I like this board - mostly respectful and some really intelligent discussions.

[truthpaste]

Jon, I like the way your dad described himself! I would probably call myself a 'Christian who doesn't care much for Christianity'.

I think that Christianity has become polarised, sadly.

If you think back to some of the great Christian minds of 100 years ago or so... Tolkien and CS Lewis etc... they used to sit, debate, argue and consider the world, universe, God etc over a pipe and a pint. They never fell out but disagreed a lot - this is a trait much missing from today. They would then use their 'art' to explore these issues - their doubts, concerns, weaknesses and ultimately joy. C S Lewis wrote about the death of his wife is brutally honest terms. Tolkien explored questioning the existence of God and good and evil, in light of the first world war through Lord of the Rings... how can God exist when so many bad things happen to innocent people.

Really meaty stuff.

We have lost that, sadly.

Yes I agree with much of what you say. However do you think it's possible that people still want answers to the big questions of life but:-

1. Organised religion puts them off from connecting with those they could chat with concerning these things?
2. People these days are too quick to pigeonhole and dismiss everyone which means they end up missing the opportunities for dialogue that you mentioned above re Tolkien and CS Lewis?
3. We've now been conditioned via the media, entertainment and the culture in general to snap at anyone who mentions the Bible but buy a coffee or lunch for anyone who studies philosophy?

[tforturton]

Only 52%? If you'd said 82% I'd have probably agreed with you.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

African Bluebird - I agree with your assertion that this country (as a whole) is not anti-Christian but I would add the proviso: “not yet”. I would say that the majority of people in this country are apathetic towards Christianity rather than anti, but remember Jesus himself said that those who followed him would be hated in the world (John 15:18 and 19). Sadly I think the “church” (by which I think most people automatically mean the Church of England btw) is becoming known for what it is against rather than what it is for. Hence like one notable poster on this forum when they talk about Christianity I think they have their own fixed stereotype of Christian in mind, which makes me wonder if they have ever actually met a true Christian? Such folk may be in a minority as not everyone who attends a church is a Christian!

My “church” now is a house group – a small collection of folk from many different backgrounds who meet in a home, in many ways akin to what the early church was. We have no minister or hierarchy, just an ordinary bunch of people who are followers of Jesus and try to live as he would have us live.

(John 13, verses 34 & 35): “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Moreover we have a strong emphasis on turning our faith into actions, based on James 2:14-18: What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds”

This is what I believe the church should be. I remember someone once asked the question – would Jesus recognise his church if he came back today? It is split into so many denominations now with so many man-made traditions and customs that I'm pretty sure he would not recognise it!

Becoming a Christian has changed my life completely and has taken me into so many places and situations that I would never have considered before. I am not perfect, on the contrary like all true Christians I recognise that I am clearly not and couldn't hold a proverbial candle to Jesus, but thankfully he accepts me as I am!

You are quoting stuff from the bible that Jesus said ?

Given that a lot of the Bible was written after this person died how do you know he said it?

Not being a Christian has taken me to many places and has led me to meet many people

Some good , some bad

Why do you have to be a follower of Jesus to experience enlightenment ?

2000 years ago medicine was in its infancy

Today things are done very differently

But Christians still follow the teachings of Jesus and refer to the bible

If a medical student at university told everyone on his course that heart disease should be treated by physicians who wrote books 2000 years ago they would think he was a bit odd

[Gofer Blue]

You are quoting stuff from the bible that Jesus said ?

Given that a lot of the Bible was written after this person died how do you know he said it?

Not being a Christian has taken me to many places and has led me to meet many people

Some good , some bad

Why do you have to be a follower of Jesus to experience enlightenment ?

2000 years ago medicine was in its infancy

Today things are done very differently

But Christians still follow the teachings of Jesus and refer to the bible

If a medical student at university told everyone on his course that heart disease should be treated by physicians who wrote books 2000 years ago they would think he was a bit odd

It is generally accepted amongst scholars that the book of John was written between 90 and 100AD, so 60 – 70 years after the death of Jesus. Why would that make the contents unreliable? Compare this to say the recollections of surviving WW2 veterans, for example D-Day survivors who are still alive over 70 years after the event and who share their memories with us so they can be recorded for posterity – would you say their recollections are unreliable? I guess you could argue that the latter can be
corroborated by newsreel footage from the time but even that would not corroborate the recollections of individual soldiers unless in the highly unlikely event that a news cameraman was right alongside each one of them at the time and captured their every word/action on film. Unfortunately we do not have the benefit of newsreels from 33AD.

I suspect you would argue that in any case the events recorded in John are completely fictitious anyway so effectively ending any further discussion. My response to that would be what would be the motive for anyone to concoct such a narrative knowing that it was not true? It was hardly likely to become a best-selling kiss and tell story which might be the case in today's society nor was it likely to lead to the subjugation of the masses to church authority at that time which is another popular theory – that was already happily being undertaken by the Jewish authorities. (I do not deny that the Christian church became all powerful much later on but that was a perversion of the gospels and the reverse of everything that Jesus stood for). The reverse in fact – Christianity would have been seen as a potential threat to the stability of the ruling religious elite hence the mass persecution of the emerging church. It would have been a risky business to be a follower of Christ in those days, with many being put to death to try to eradicate the cause. Yet it flourished and grew!

Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today? I don't recall Jesus required his followers to put to death anyone who does not accept the faith for example.

You ask why it was necessary for me to become a Christian to meet people and go to places where I would never have gone. Obviously you don't know me as you didn't before I became a Christian so let me enlighten you. I grew up effectively as an only child (I have one sibling who she is almost 13 years younger than me) hence I was an essential selfish person, an attitude which persevered well into adulthood. I was never an evil person but looking after No.1 was my mantra. After becoming a Christian in my late 30's all that changed and most of my life since has been a compassionate concern for other people which is what Jesus would expect from each of us. Maybe for you that came naturally but not for me. I will not go into any more details here otherwise it could be interpreted as a “look at me aren't I a great person” narcissistic diatribe.

Look after yourself and try to keep an open mind. At the end of the day it isn't down to me to evangelise or judge you, it's your choice!

[Taunton Blue Genie]

It is generally accepted amongst scholars that the book of John was written between 90 and 100AD, so 60 – 70 years after the death of Jesus. Why would that make the contents unreliable? Compare this to say the recollections of surviving WW2 veterans, for example D-Day survivors who are still alive over 70 years after the event and who share their memories with us so they can be recorded for posterity – would you say their recollections are unreliable? I guess you could argue that the latter can be
corroborated by newsreel footage from the time but even that would not corroborate the recollections of individual soldiers unless in the highly unlikely event that a news cameraman was right alongside each one of them at the time and captured their every word/action on film. Unfortunately we do not have the benefit of newsreels from 33AD.

I suspect you would argue that in any case the events recorded in John are completely fictitious anyway so effectively ending any further discussion. My response to that would be what would be the motive for anyone to concoct such a narrative knowing that it was not true? It was hardly likely to become a best-selling kiss and tell story which might be the case in today's society nor was it likely to lead to the subjugation of the masses to church authority at that time which is another popular theory – that was already happily being undertaken by the Jewish authorities. (I do not deny that the Christian church became all powerful much later on but that was a perversion of the gospels and the reverse of everything that Jesus stood for). The reverse in fact – Christianity would have been seen as a potential threat to the stability of the ruling religious elite hence the mass persecution of the emerging church. It would have been a risky business to be a follower of Christ in those days, with many being put to death to try to eradicate the cause. Yet it flourished and grew!

Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today? I don't recall Jesus required his followers to put to death anyone who does not accept the faith for example.

You ask why it was necessary for me to become a Christian to meet people and go to places where I would never have gone. Obviously you don't know me as you didn't before I became a Christian so let me enlighten you. I grew up effectively as an only child (I have one sibling who she is almost 13 years younger than me) hence I was an essential selfish person, an attitude which persevered well into adulthood. I was never an evil person but looking after No.1 was my mantra. After becoming a Christian in my late 30's all that changed and most of my life since has been a compassionate concern for other people which is what Jesus would expect from each of us. Maybe for you that came naturally but not for me. I will not go into any more details here otherwise it could be interpreted as a “look at me aren't I a great person” narcissistic diatribe.

Look after yourself and try to keep an open mind. At the end of the day it isn't down to me to evangelise or judge you, it's your choice!

The facts are that:

1. The first five books of the Bible and which represent the Torah were supposedly written by Moses.
2. There is no evidence that Moses existed
3. There is no evidence that if he existed that he spoke to 'God'
4. There is no evidence of such dialogue being recorded.

The whole concept of Abrahamist religions are based on the supposed works of one mythical person and there is nothing resembling an audit trail of any description. However, catch people when they are young, indoctrinate them and they swallow it whole. And most believers have little idea how so-called Holy Books have been compiled, sifted, edited and changed through the centuries. And that's precisely why religions are subject to endless and deep schisms even under the Abrahamist umbrella.

[lisvaneblue]

The facts are that:

1. The first five books of the Bible and which represent the Torah were supposedly written by Moses.
2. There is no evidence that Moses existed
3. There is no evidence that if he existed that he spoke to 'God'
4. There is no evidence of such dialogue being recorded.

The whole concept of Abrahamist religions are based on the supposed works of one mythical person and there is nothing resembling an audit trail of any description. However, catch people when they are young, indoctrinate them and they swallow it whole. And most believers have little idea how so-called Holy Books have been compiled, sifted, edited and changed through the centuries. And that's precisely why religions are subject to endless and deep schisms even under the Abrahamist umbrella.

Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.

Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.

Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.

I had asked a question about Moses several times in this thread and it went unanswered. As Moses is one of the most important pillars of the story in Abrahamist religions it is perfectly logical to seriously analyse things assigned to him and which adherents believe in. It seems to be the case of a possibly mythical person supposedly carrying God's word to the masses so I think the subject deserves more respect than referring to another possibly mythical person mentioned in the same tome.

[Gofer Blue]

Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.

Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.

There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.

In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally realised that science does not have all the answers after all!

[Baloo]

Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today?

Yes, but many of these ideas were imported from the classical ethical tradition preceding Christianity. So it’s possible to try and live a good life following them without any real need to also include the supernatural.

[life on mars]

My religion is firmly behind drink

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

As someone who has known Christ since Jimmy Scholar was managing the City, I can tell you that organised religion is NOT the answer and forms the biggest barrier to individuals finding Almighty God at a personal level.
Religion = conflict, control, anger and confusion.
Christ provides true peace, true freedom, a real purpose in this life a real hope for the future.
Jesus declared - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, nobody comes to the Father, except through me"

The retirement benefits aren't too shabby either

So in your opinion , it's just based on what you think........nobody goes to heaven unless they talk to or worship Jesus?

You see this is the problem for many of us non believers , you Christians base your lives on things that may or may not have been said 2000 plus years ago

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

Only 52%? If you'd said 82% I'd have probably agreed with you.

At least

It's dying out

When I was growing up I went to church but only because I had to

By the time I was 12 girls , fishing and football took over

In my groups of friends I don't know any people who go to church

[truthpaste]

At least

It's dying out

When I was growing up I went to church but only because I had to

By the time I was 12 girls , fishing and football took over

In my groups of friends I don't know any people who go to church

Agreed. And the sooner boring religion is eliminated the better.

Christ was born a Jew and He was killed because of Jewish religious people; and still people think that following Christ is religion!

No Christ, no peace - KNOW Christ, KNOW Peace

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Agreed. And the sooner boring religion is eliminated the better.

Christ was born a Jew and He was killed because of Jewish religious people; and still people think that following Christ is religion!

No Christ, no peace - KNOW Christ, KNOW Peace

It's baffling that you think what you do isn't religion. What's the problem? Plenty of people who are religious are nice enough.

Then you have a dogmatic belief in a figurehead and a specific text and narrative which you routinely share with others.

[delmbox]

Agreed. And the sooner boring religion is eliminated the better.

Christ was born a Jew and He was killed because of Jewish religious people; and still people think that following Christ is religion!

No Christ, no peace - KNOW Christ, KNOW Peace

Here's something I've always wondered about the whole heaven/hell thing - say I'm a believer and I know Christ and live a perfect, devout life and get into heaven. But say my partner, who I love dearly, doesn't believe and doesn't get to go to heaven. Do I then live the rest of eternity in heaven, knowing that she's spending eternity in hell or purgatory? Because to be honest I'd find that quite upsetting and not very heavenly at all. How does that work?

[splott parker]

Here's something I've always wondered about the whole heaven/hell thing - say I'm a believer and I know Christ and live a perfect, devout life and get into heaven. But say my partner, who I love dearly, doesn't believe and doesn't get to go to heaven. Do I then live the rest of eternity in heaven, knowing that she's spending eternity in hell or purgatory? Because to be honest I'd find that quite upsetting and not very heavenly at all. How does that work?

She had her chance Delmi, not your fault she preferred to stay in bed on a Sunday morning whilst you were cleansing your soul. You could always borrow a virgin off a suicide bomber.

[Gofer Blue]

Here's something I've always wondered about the whole heaven/hell thing - say I'm a believer and I know Christ and live a perfect, devout life and get into heaven. But say my partner, who I love dearly, doesn't believe and doesn't get to go to heaven. Do I then live the rest of eternity in heaven, knowing that she's spending eternity in hell or purgatory? Because to be honest I'd find that quite upsetting and not very heavenly at all. How does that work?

As a Christian I have wrestled with this thought myself. I can only conclude that heaven is nothing like anything we humans can conceive of i.e. will we have no memory of the time before we died and simply enjoy a peaceful, pain-free, war-free existence in some sort of spirit form? The Bible talks of a heavenly "body" and Jesus said there would be no marriages in heaven but there is some controversy over this: did he mean that people who get to heaven don't marry there or did he mean that people who were married in their earthly life don't stay married in heaven! It's one of those questions that can't be answered unfortunately. BTW I often wonder why non-believers get upset with notions of heaven and eternal life - surely it is irrelevant to them?

[Taunton Blue Genie]

As a Christian I have wrestled with this thought myself. I can only conclude that heaven is nothing like anything we humans can conceive of i.e. will we have no memory of the time before we died and simply enjoy a peaceful, pain-free, war-free existence in some sort of spirit form? The Bible talks of a heavenly "body" and Jesus said there would be no marriages in heaven but there is some controversy over this: did he mean that people who get to heaven don't marry there or did he mean that people who were married in their earthly life don't stay married in heaven! It's one of those questions that can't be answered unfortunately. BTW I often wonder why non-believers get upset with notions of heaven and eternal life - surely it is irrelevant to them?

It's because the concept infantilizes the gullible.

[delmbox]

As a Christian I have wrestled with this thought myself. I can only conclude that heaven is nothing like anything we humans can conceive of i.e. will we have no memory of the time before we died and simply enjoy a peaceful, pain-free, war-free existence in some sort of spirit form? The Bible talks of a heavenly "body" and Jesus said there would be no marriages in heaven but there is some controversy over this: did he mean that people who get to heaven don't marry there or did he mean that people who were married in their earthly life don't stay married in heaven! It's one of those questions that can't be answered unfortunately. BTW I often wonder why non-believers get upset with notions of heaven and eternal life - surely it is irrelevant to them?

I'm not sure if the last sentence is directed at me, it's just a big contradiction I've always wondered about, same as if only believers get into heaven it seems a bit unfair that say a non believer who's dedicated their lives to saving children ends up in the same place as the Yorkshire Ripper.

I've got no quarrel with you and your beliefs though, it's not for me but I think religion and faith can be a good thing in that it gives people strength in testing times and in its best form leads people to do good, it's just the violent fanatics and those that abuse and misinterpret the core messages that make it the cause of so many problems, and unfortunately historically and currently there's a lot of them

[Tuerto]

Here's something I've always wondered about the whole heaven/hell thing - say I'm a believer and I know Christ and live a perfect, devout life and get into heaven. But say my partner, who I love dearly, doesn't believe and doesn't get to go to heaven. Do I then live the rest of eternity in heaven, knowing that she's spending eternity in hell or purgatory? Because to be honest I'd find that quite upsetting and not very heavenly at all. How does that work?

There is no purgatory, the catholic church are starting to swerve that one. The ****ing hours i spent praying for people in the halfway house was such a massive waste.

[Canton Kev]

Only 52%? If you'd said 82% I'd have probably agreed with you.

My mate who never goes to church and breaks half the sins in the bible put down “Christian” on the census based on the fact his parents are and would’ve kicked up a fuss had he not. I imagine 52% is much lower than people who are actually not religious based on people like the above.

[pomeroy]

No one has ever come up with any demonstrable evidence for the existence of god. Millions of people worldwide regulate their lives by holy books of which none are sure of their authorship nor know the dates of their publications. We pay deference in millions to so called people of “faith” who deliberate upon ethics and morals and yet deride the witch doctors and shamen of older faiths whose tenets are no more fact based than Abrahamic religions. Remember that the Iliad and the Odyssey were written thousands of years before the Bible and the Koran and yet those books also have their Gods, now long forgotten.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

No one has ever come up with any demonstrable evidence for the existence of god. Millions of people worldwide regulate their lives by holy books of which none are sure of their authorship nor know the dates of their publications. We pay deference in millions to so called people of “faith” who deliberate upon ethics and morals and yet deride the witch doctors and shamen of older faiths whose tenets are no more fact based than Abrahamic religions. Remember that the Iliad and the Odyssey were written thousands of years before the Bible and the Koran and yet those books also have their Gods, now long forgotten.

Aborigines , thousands and thousands of years worshipping the sun and the earth

American Natives , wise men hold meetings on important matters , respect is given to the land , to animals , to nature

Some bloke in pontypridd is a Christian but goes out every Saturday for a big mac and fries

It's all upside down

[Tuerto]

Aborigines , thousands and thousands of years worshipping the sun and the earth

American Natives , wise men hold meetings on important matters , respect is given to the land , to animals , to nature

Some bloke in pontypridd is a Christian but goes out every Saturday for a big mac and fries

It's all upside down

Describing American Natives as 'Wise Men' Such a cliche, Sludge. Must've been some dull ones as well.