Brexit and trade

[Eric Cartman]

Well I'd argue that Theresa May is a kind of socialist insofar as she's a globalist , and they operate as fake socialists using the mechanisms of socialism to mask power grabbing .

As far as Hitler is concerned this clip explains and saves me writing an essay.

He actually wrote an essay and I have read it before. What he described in it was totalitarianism in my opinion although he didn't actually provide a lot of evidence for the claims he was making about government interference in private industry either (however likely they seem).

If your (or his, as it seems) point is that Nazi Germany is an example of community ownership and regulation of the means of production then you are vastly overestimating the freedom and influence that the average German person had during this period.

I don't doubt it fits your warped view of socialism but the fact I knew what you were going to post before you did suggests this view isn't widely held.

[RonnieBird]

He actually wrote an essay and I have read it before. What he described in it was totalitarianism in my opinion although he didn't actually provide a lot of evidence for the claims he was making about government interference in private industry either (however likely they seem).

If your (or his, as it seems) point is that Nazi Germany is an example of community ownership and regulation of the means of production then you are vastly overestimating the freedom and influence that the average German person had during this period.

I don't doubt it fits your warped view of socialism but the fact I knew what you were going to post before you did suggests this view isn't widely held.

Well you see , I have both a personal view of socialism and what I'm fairly confident is an understanding of its nature and history. They're quite different things, the former being formed by the latter.

The fact that you choose to describe either as "warped" speaks volumes though. Since I haven't set either out, I can deduce that you are offended - and PERSONALLY offended -by the very fact that someone has questioned that philosophy . Interesting then, that you used the term " totalitarianism" in your post, because such a reaction to dissent is an indication of that.

Rational men can discuss matters and perhaps learn something from such conversations, but you can never convince a fanatic of any type to consider alternative views.

I did say at the outset that there was little point in arguing the toss on the point because I suspected that your beliefs were pretty set in stone, and your somewhat angry response bears that out.

Incidentally , and I digress entirely , if you knew what I was going to post before I did that suggests either that you're psychic or that the view must be quite widely held because you'd apparently heard it expressed before.

That said, the test of truth really isn't how widely something is believed, but whether it's true.

[Eric Cartman]

Well you see , I have both a personal view of socialism and what I'm fairly confident is an understanding of its nature and history. They're quite different things, the former being formed by the latter.

The fact that you choose to describe either as "warped" speaks volumes though. Since I haven't set either out, I can deduce that you are offended - and PERSONALLY offended -by the very fact that someone has questioned that philosophy . Interesting then, that you used the term " totalitarianism" in your post, because such a reaction to dissent is an indication of that.

Rational men can discuss matters and perhaps learn something from such conversations, but you can never convince a fanatic of any type to consider alternative views.

I did say at the outset that there was little point in arguing the toss on the point because I suspected that your beliefs were pretty set in stone, and your somewhat angry response bears that out.

Incidentally , and I digress entirely , if you knew what I was going to post before I did that suggests either that you're psychic or that the view must be quite widely held because you'd apparently heard it expressed before.

That said, the test of truth really isn't how widely something is believed, but whether it's true.

It doesn't have a history, it is an ideology, a textbook definition. There are instances of it being implemented by people who inevitably use the conditions created to help themselves.

I feel the need to point that out because the majority of people who denounce the concept socialism using evidence of historical implementations do so with the intention of explaining why things simply can't be more equal in our society. It is nonsense and creates this polarisation, you have to nail your colours to one mast or the other despite your true positon being somewhere in the middle.

That being said, you still haven't convinced me that Hitler implemented a socialist model. On my psychic abilities you miss my point, this guy is almost the only academic who agrees with you and I have read his paper on this topic so it was likely to be where you were going.

Oh and on the issue of fanaticism. In multiple threads now you have trotted out the 'socialism is evil' shtick despite it having not much relevance. You are the one who sounds fanatical, I am simply trying to bring you back to reality my friend.

[the other bob wilson]

It doesn't have a history, it is an ideology, a textbook definition. There are instances of it being implemented by people who inevitably use the conditions created to help themselves.

I feel the need to point that out because the majority of people who denounce the concept socialism using evidence of historical implementations do so with the intention of explaining why things simply can't be more equal in our society. It is nonsense and creates this polarisation, you have to nail your colours to one mast or the other despite your true positon being somewhere in the middle.

That being said, you still haven't convinced me that Hitler implemented a socialist model. On my psychic abilities you miss my point, this guy is almost the only academic who agrees with you and I have read his paper on this topic so it was likely to be where you were going.

Oh and on the issue of fanaticism. In multiple threads now you have trotted out the 'socialism is evil' shtick despite it having not much relevance. You are the one who sounds fanatical, I am simply trying to bring you back to reality my friend.

There's a poster on here that you may know intimately who, despite telling us for the past couple of years that there is no such thing as right and left in politics any more, has recently taken to throwing around labels such as "socialist" and "communist" willynilly. He's started doing this presumably because Donald Trump and the alt right have started to use those terms to describe anyone who isn't on their side - hence the absurdity in this thread whereby Theresa May, someone whose political reputation floundered because of her desire to put the Conservative party before the country, is a socialist.

When I read some of the great puppet masters posts these days, I can't help but think of him as a Rick from the Young Ones in reverse - switch the word "facist" for "socialist" or "communist" in this video and you could be watching Wales Bales!

[CardiffIrish2]

There's a poster on here that you may know intimately who, despite telling us for the past couple of years that there is no such thing as right and left in politics any more, has recently taken to throwing around labels such as "socialist" and "communist" willynilly. He's started doing this presumably because Donald Trump and the alt right have started to use those terms to describe anyone who isn't on their side - hence the absurdity in this thread whereby Theresa May, someone whose political reputation floundered because of her desire to put the Conservative party before the country, is a socialist.

When I read some of the great puppet masters posts these days, I can't help but think of him as a Rick from the Young Ones in reverse - switch the word "facist" for "socialist" or "communist" in this video and you could be watching Wales Bales!

Ha ha yes it’s ‘Wik’ alright 😂😂

[RonnieBird]

I think I did ask what on earth was going on. I think I did invite you to check it and post you a link to an app where you could do that.
Let me ask you a question then , what exactly would you have done to resolve it ?

Yes , Wales bales was a bit mischievous tying these nutters up in knots and using a web they'd spun to do it, but in fairness he didn't start it, did he ? I came in here in all good faith , I didn't do anything wrong and a few people who obviously had history with WB immediately started going for me.

He made them look like the stupid oafs which I regret to say they apparently are, ( based on the way they've ganged up on me for no reason), and so yes I can appreciate his guile and intelligence. He hasn't trolled me or insulted me as this bunch of nutters have, so yes I would tend to take his side , wouldn't I ?

If you'd like to suggest any way in which I can prove I'm not WB, ( which I certainly shouldn't have to) , let me know and I'll do it just for the sake of stopping this bloody nonsense.

You're a respected figure who's run a Cardiff City blog I was aware of before I'd heard of WB or this forum, so you're the last person I'd expect to be joining in this crap. Don't misunderstand this - I'm not complaining because I'm very much big and ugly enough to stand up fir myself and so it won't effect me in that way, but the whole thing is no more than common or garden bullying , or attempted bullying anyway. I think I'm able to tell enough about you from your writings here and on your blog to think that you wouldn't deliberately take part in that, so I honestly wish you'd think it through again.

[the other bob wilson]

I think I did ask what on earth was going on. I think I did invite you to check it and post you a link to an app where you could do that.
Let me ask you a question then , what exactly would you have done to resolve it ?

Yes , Wales bales was a bit mischievous tying these nutters up in knots and using a web they'd spun to do it, but in fairness he didn't start it, did he ? I came in here in all good faith , I didn't do anything wrong and a few people who obviously had history with WB immediately started going for me.

He made them look like the stupid oafs which I regret to say they apparently are, ( based on the way they've ganged up on me for no reason), and so yes I can appreciate his guile and intelligence. He hasn't trolled me or insulted me as this bunch of nutters have, so yes I would tend to take his side , wouldn't I ?

If you'd like to suggest any way in which I can prove I'm not WB, ( which I certainly shouldn't have to) , let me know and I'll do it just for the sake of stopping this bloody nonsense.

You're a respected figure who's run a Cardiff City blog I was aware of before I'd heard of WB or this forum, so you're the last person I'd expect to be joining in this crap. Don't misunderstand this - I'm not complaining because I'm very much big and ugly enough to stand up fir myself and so it won't effect me in that way, but the whole thing is no more than common or garden bullying , or attempted bullying anyway. I think I'm able to tell enough about you from your writings here and on your blog to think that you wouldn't deliberately take part in that, so I honestly wish you'd think it through again.

I set out what I thought in the first of the messages I posted yesterday in this thread and nothing's happened since then to change that However, I do accept that if what you say is true and the second of the alternatives (you are not Wales Bales) I set out applies, then perhaps the term more sinned against than sinning applies to you.

Nevertheless, you have set out the lengths you have gone to to try and prove that you are not Wales Bales and you've certainly written enough long messages on the subject as well. This suggests to me that you are not happy with what's happened. I can understand that, but what I just don't get at all is your reluctance to pin the blame for the whole situation on the person responsible for creating it - instead, you are fulsome in your praise of the cause of your.problem.

What I saw was Wales Bales create your problem by posting a message under his name that read as if you had written it and, hardly surprisingly, people have jumped to a certain conclusion after reading it. According to you, these people are "stupid oafs", but where you see "guile and intelligence" on Wales Bales' part, all I see is someone flailing about trying to get themselves out of the mess they created for themselves - as I said yesterday, distinctly odd behaviour all round.

[lardy]

I set out what I thought in the first of the messages I posted yesterday in this thread and nothing's happened since then to change that However, I do accept that if what you say is true and the second of the alternatives (you are not Wales Bales) I set out applies, then perhaps the term more sinned against than sinning applies to you.

Nevertheless, you have set out the lengths you have gone to to try and prove that you are not Wales Bales and you've certainly written enough long messages on the subject as well. This suggests to me that you are not happy with what's happened. I can understand that, but what I just don't get at all is your reluctance to pin the blame for the whole situation on the person responsible for creating it - instead, you are fulsome in your praise of the cause of your.problem.

What I saw was Wales Bales create your problem by posting a message under his name that read as if you had written it and, hardly surprisingly, people have jumped to a certain conclusion after reading it. According to you, these people are "stupid oafs", but where you see "guile and intelligence" on Wales Bales' part, all I see is someone flailing about trying to get themselves out of the mess they created for themselves - as I said yesterday, distinctly odd behaviour all round.

It's probably worth mentioning that WB made that post after a lot of people had already spotted that he was also posting as ronniebird. The slipup just confirmed it, but didn't create it.

I expect he started the new account because a number of posters (I could easily name four or five) have said that they don't want to interact with him any more and as he's a little addicted to CCMB he decided to start a new one.

I'd also mention that when he started the WalesBales account, he pretended he wasn't gluey for a few weeks. All this is nothing new.

[PontBlue]

You are correct in that Wetherspoons have used trade deals negotiated by the EU to source cheaper products from non-EU countries.

It is also true that we will lose access to these trade agreements should we leave the EU without a deal.

As Ronnie/WB points put we can negotiate trade deals with any German supervision.

However, when negotiating any deal I would rather have the clout of a 508m potential customers rather than 66m customers.

[RonnieBird]

You are correct in that Wetherspoons have used trade deals negotiated by the EU to source cheaper products from non-EU countries.

It is also true that we will lose access to these trade agreements should we leave the EU without a deal.

As Ronnie/WB points put we can negotiate trade deals with any German supervision.

However, when negotiating any deal I would rather have the clout of a 508m potential customers rather than 66m customers.

That's not entirely valid because a market is either big enough to be worth going for or not big enough to be worth going for, and 66m is.
Are you also volunteering for the dunce's cap regarding myself and WB then ?

[Eric Cartman]

That's not entirely valid because a market is either big enough to be worth going for or not big enough to be worth going for, and 66m is.
Are you also volunteering for the dunce's cap regarding myself and WB then ?

So every country with a population of more than X has exactly the same clout in trade negotiations?

What is X?

[RonnieBird]

That's be variable, wouldn't it ? There'd be a lot of other factors too of course, such as language and political stability, geographical location etc etc ad inf.

If your figure of X existed , it'd be a lot lower than 66m though.

Let's not forget that this figure someone quoted of 508m or whatever it was includes Greece and a lot of East European shithole countries with no spending power, but which require constant subsidies from more developed economies shackled to them in the EU.

We'd also be likely to be a lot less regulated than the EU once transitional measures lapse and thus easier to deal with.

[the other bob wilson]

That's be variable, wouldn't it ? There'd be a lot of other factors too of course, such as language and political stability, geographical location etc etc ad inf.

If your figure of X existed , it'd be a lot lower than 66m though.

Let's not forget that this figure someone quoted of 508m or whatever it was includes Greece and a lot of East European shithole countries with no spending power, but which require constant subsidies from more developed economies shackled to them in the EU.

We'd also be likely to be a lot less regulated than the EU once transitional measures lapse and thus easier to deal with.

Remember the days when Liam Fox used to talk about how easy getting trade deals would be once we left the EU? Now Brexiteers are reduced to this sort of well, we still won't be as bad as some others type of thing.

[RonnieBird]

Remember the days when Liam Fox used to talk about how easy getting trade deals would be once we left the EU? Now Brexiteers are reduced to this sort of well, we still won't be as bad as some others type of thing.

I set out what I thought in the first of the messages I posted yesterday in this thread and nothing's happened since then to change that However, I do accept that if what you say is true and the second of the alternatives (you are not Wales Bales) I set out applies, then perhaps the term more sinned against than sinning applies to you.

Nevertheless, you have set out the lengths you have gone to to try and prove that you are not Wales Bales and you've certainly written enough long messages on the subject as well. This suggests to me that you are not happy with what's happened. I can understand that, but what I just don't get at all is your reluctance to pin the blame for the whole situation on the person responsible for creating it - instead, you are fulsome in your praise of the cause of your.problem.

What I saw was Wales Bales create your problem by posting a message under his name that read as if you had written it and, hardly surprisingly, people have jumped to a certain conclusion after reading it. According to you, these people are "stupid oafs", but where you see "guile and intelligence" on Wales Bales' part, all I see is someone flailing about trying to get themselves out of the mess they created for themselves - as I said yesterday, distinctly odd behaviour all round.

Well look, for one thing someone has been fair enough to point out that WB didn't do his Rope a Dope till after half the forum was accusing me of being him.

I don't know ANY of these people and so I'm an objective observer to various groups doing battle. I don't play games like that myself, and I was indeed initially mystified when WB did that. I wondered what he was up to but it didn't take me long to work out that he was winding them up and, whether or not I liked that it was quite clever . I said so purely on the basis of credit where credits due - in the little games some people are obviously playing he won by a very long way.

As far as I can see though WB appears to be broadly on the same political side as me so I'm not inclined to go for him, in much the same way that I wouldn't be complaining too loudly about a professional foul by Arter.

The simple fact is though that any connection between myself and WB is entirely in the minds of those who imagined it. I do suspect that he might have had a similar education to me and therefore writes in a similar way.

[the other bob wilson]

Well look, for one thing someone has been fair enough to point out that WB didn't do his Rope a Dope till after half the forum was accusing me of being him.

I don't know ANY of these people and so I'm an objective observer to various groups doing battle. I don't play games like that myself, and I was indeed initially mystified when WB did that. I wondered what he was up to but it didn't take me long to work out that he was winding them up and, whether or not I liked that it was quite clever . I said so purely on the basis of credit where credits due - in the little games some people are obviously playing he won by a very long way.

As far as I can see though WB appears to be broadly on the same political side as me so I'm not inclined to go for him, in much the same way that I wouldn't be complaining too loudly about a professional foul by Arter.

The simple fact is though that any connection between myself and WB is entirely in the minds of those who imagined it. I do suspect that he might have had a similar education to me and therefore writes in a similar way.

You, and your alleged alter ego, have a hugely inflated opinion of yourselves if you really think half of the forum were discussing who you were and I say that as someone who has spent too much time doing it recently - I have had my say on the matter and, having done so, I'll leave it there.

[RonnieBird]

You, and your alleged alter ego, have a hugely inflated opinion of yourselves if you really think half of the forum were discussing who you were and I say that as someone who has spent too much time doing it recently - I have had my say on the matter and, having done so, I'll leave it there.

I'm rarely shocked by posts on message boards but I am by that one. I think that's because I had a much higher expectation of you because of your other writings.

It's immensely unfair to say I've got an inflated ego on that basis. I didn't IMAGINE that every time I tried to post here I got a response about WB did I ?
Actually I make a point of not guessing what anyone is thinking because that's often different to what they say or write. Whilst I'm on that subject , I don't CARE what they think either.
I do care when people call me a liar, which I am not !

You really shouldn't complain that you've spent too much time on it either because you kept returning to it, not me.

I had tried to engage you in football conversation if you recall all that stuff about friendlies at Ton Pentre etc, and I did that to get the focus off this puerile bollocks. I will admit that I chose you to do this because I thought you were an "elder statesman" here who might see through the situation and quietly intervene to calm it down.

That didn't work, and it made me feel worse because you seem to have joined in rather than been the marker for fair play I'd expected .

[Wales-Bales]

As far as I can see though WB appears to be broadly on the same political side as me so I'm not inclined to go for him, in much the same way that I wouldn't be complaining too loudly about a professional foul by Arter.

The simple fact is though that any connection between myself and WB is entirely in the minds of those who imagined it. I do suspect that he might have had a similar education to me and therefore writes in a similar way.

You're doing well Ron, carry on with your well researched posts and don't let anybody put you off. I've been trouncing them in the Trump thread for ages. I thought they would have learned a thing or two by now, but obviously it's not going to happen. They always think they are right because they are the many versus the few, and the Guardian could never be wrong, could it?

[life on mars]

You're doing well Ron, carry on with your well researched posts and don't let anybody put you off. I've been trouncing them in the Trump thread for ages. I thought they would have learned a thing or two by now, but obviously it's not going to happen. They always think they are right because they are the many versus the few, and the Guardian could never be wrong, could it?

Yes i'll second that , keep it going ,dont give in , if you dont follow the narrow narrative left agenda ,your a misfit and you get personally attacked ,remind you of anything from the new modern politics agenda ?

[jon1959]

You're doing well Ron, carry on with your well researched posts and don't let anybody put you off. I've been trouncing them in the Trump thread for ages. I thought they would have learned a thing or two by now, but obviously it's not going to happen. They always think they are right because they are the many versus the few, and the Guardian could never be wrong, could it?

Unbelievable.....

[Eric Cartman]

That's be variable, wouldn't it ? There'd be a lot of other factors too of course, such as language and political stability, geographical location etc etc ad inf.

If your figure of X existed , it'd be a lot lower than 66m though.

Let's not forget that this figure someone quoted of 508m or whatever it was includes Greece and a lot of East European shithole countries with no spending power, but which require constant subsidies from more developed economies shackled to them in the EU.

We'd also be likely to be a lot less regulated than the EU once transitional measures lapse and thus easier to deal with.

'a market is either big enough to be worth going for or not big enough to be worth going for'

[CardiffIrish2]

Ignoring all the silly abusive crap, I'll answer the question briefly.
Language, cultural and colonial links , less red tape and regulation and perhaps tax inducements. The ability to offer such inducements without EU approval.
Case in point would be, as I mentioned before, Jamaican bananas which are cheaper and of higher quality but effectively banned because the EU have agreed to instead import crappy South and Central American bananas via Germany thus closing down a big South Wales industry and crapping on the heads of a former colony which has had its own economy wrecked by the EU too. In turn perhaps they'd return to importing UK goods instead of American one's and there's be a small but helpful market.
I could give 100 examples of a similar nature where we could and would benefit from putting British interests first, rather than what the EU bureaucracy considers most beneficial to their project to create a superstate there.

Just by saying ‘colonial links’ seems that you’re hankering after an imperial past that has long gone

[RonnieBird]

Just by saying ‘colonial links’ seems that you’re hankering after an imperial past that has long gone

Well that's a bit of mind reading on your part really.
There are a lot of things to do with colonial links other than what you seem to be taking. It's just shorthand for historical connections really ,such as those with Jamaica as I mentioned , where they speak English and supported us in many wars. Their economy was ruined by EU banana agreements, as was Trinidads oil refinery - I'd say we owe them a loyalty and whether you like it or not many people in the Commonwealth and former Empire , ( much of which wasn't acquired by conquest) have connections with Britain and would like to trade with us.

[life on mars]

Well that's a bit of mind reading on your part really.
There are a lot of things to do with colonial links other than what you seem to be taking. It's just shorthand for historical connections really ,such as those with Jamaica as I mentioned , where they speak English and supported us in many wars. Their economy was ruined by EU banana agreements, as was Trinidads oil refinery - I'd say we owe them a loyalty and whether you like it or not many people in the Commonwealth and former Empire , ( much of which wasn't acquired by conquest) have connections with Britain and would like to trade with us.

I get your point and its a very valid one , commonwealth countries have suffered think theresabout 52 of them

http://thecommonwealth.org/media/new...th-post-brexit

[Eric Cartman]

And here arrives the victim narrative.

[the other bob wilson]

And here arrives the victim narrative.

Sorry for returning so quickly to this thread so soon after I said I'd finished with it, but I had to say that those were two classic bizarre messageboard rants!