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Thread: Coup, what coup?

  1. #1

    Coup, what coup?


  2. #2
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Coup, what coup?

    An interesting polemic and I agree with some of it.

    Johnson/Cummings are clearly using the Donald Trump playbook, but they have only been in No 10 for a matter of weeks. Prior to that the language of public debate (set by the government and media - especially print/online media) has changed so that previous norms and conventions have been trashed. In my view this has mainly focused on undermining the courts and promoting extreme populism often based on simplistic, misleading and violent propaganda. There hasn't been a coup in the UK but there has been a subversion of liberal democracy and the institutions that support it. The references to the USA, India, Brazil and the Philipines show what can happen if this direction of travel isn't stopped.

    I don't agree with the article when it comes to political parties and MPs representing their constituencies. MPs should represent their constituencies and individuals who come to them for advice or help regardless of how they votes, but the MP is elected on the basis of a party manifesto and as a member of a political party. They are duty bound to vote on that basis, whilst free to argue internally for change or evolution in the party programme, and if they no longer feel able to support that programme they should resign. I think the best guarantee of democratic legitimacy in our system is large, active party memberships - reinforced by affiliations by sympathetic organisations.

    The main reason I still support Labour (though not a member since early 2013) is because of the organisational links to the trade union movement, its' mass membership (though bigger would be much better) progressive manifesto (in 2017) and - despite Blair ripping up Clause 4 - a set of values and principles that I still identify with most of the time. I don't want MPs who get elected on a party ticket and then freelance (betray their electorate) using the argument that they are just following their conscience. If that's how they want to act they should stand as independents or just take their egos and opinions down the pub.

  3. #3

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Interesting read. Thanks for that.

  4. #4

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Interesting article , I would suggest that Trump followed the Johnson/Cummings / Farage model .

    Populism Is at times attributed to right-wing groups and leaders like Trump, who has tried to use illegal immigrants as a populist media grab .

    However In recent years left-wing movements have used populism such as Spain's Podemos , Greek Popular Unity,Social Democratic Populist Party in Turkey , some commentators say Jeremy Corbyn's politics is the next populist political movement and /or Brexit or UKIP ,which may explain why we are where we are with the likes or Boris its left v right populism and a slice of something else in between .


    In South America populism grows from within right and left wing political spectrums .

  5. #5

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    The article's penultimate sentence reads: It will be a massive step towards dethroning democracy in the UK.

    That'll be the same 'democracy' in which an unelected person holds vast powers through the the royal prerogative. Slippery bullshitters such as the author who shill about what they perceive is a decline in British democracy always tiptoe around this Mount Everest-sized contradiction by addressing those powers (a unilateral sovereign sanction) by implying they exist technically or in theory but don't in reality by convention. Which really means they do legally exist but are rarely exercised.

  6. #6

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    The article's penultimate sentence reads: It will be a massive step towards dethroning democracy in the UK.

    That'll be the same 'democracy' in which an unelected person holds vast powers through the the royal prerogative. Slippery bullshitters such as the author who shill about what they perceive is a decline in British democracy always tiptoe around this Mount Everest-sized contradiction by addressing those powers (a unilateral sovereign sanction) by implying they exist technically or in theory but don't in reality by convention. Which really means they do legally exist but are rarely exercised.
    If you rarely exercise your powers, can they really be vast?

  7. #7

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Seems ignoring democracy is very popular, even when it concerns the people ,never mind the democratic rights of parliament,what about the people ☑⁉️

  8. #8
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Seems ignoring democracy is very popular, even when it concerns the people ,never mind the democratic rights of parliament,what about the people ☑⁉️
    Quite right. Give the people an election in November, followed by a new referendum now we know what Brexit is all about. Power to the people!

  9. #9

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Quite right. Give the people an election in November, followed by a new referendum now we know what Brexit is all about. Power to the people!
    GE yes sorry we have had the other vote and its disservice to those 17 million.
    What happens if its another 52/48 go again and again this is agony for some people and business.

    Have the election with each party being honest about its intentions.

  10. #10

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    If you rarely exercise your powers, can they really be vast?
    Having someone who's unelected exclusive authority to shut down Parliament and to refuse royal assent to stop any bill becoming law isn't how I'd define democracy. I suppose in your world having 900+ unelected members of the House of Lords is also democratic.

  11. #11

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Unfortunately we've reached a point where democracy needs redefining because all parties have now played fast and loose with the concept so many times that people no longer trust our institutions.

    It's clear that those who seek political office must be held accountable to clear rules with criminal sanctions for those who abuse them.

    You're absolutely correct that the present House of Lords as a 2nd Chamber is preposterous and needs replacement.

  12. #12
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    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Quite right. Give the people an election in November, followed by a new referendum now we know what Brexit is all about. Power to the people!
    You think you know ...

  13. #13

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    You think you know ...
    Perhaps we should allow one further referendum the options on the ballott being :

    As you have instructed HM Goverment to leave the EU please advise which option you prefer:

    1. Leave on WTO rules ( no deal.)

    2. Leave via the agreed withdrawal deal terms

  14. #14

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Organ Morgan. View Post
    Having someone who's unelected exclusive authority to shut down Parliament and to refuse royal assent to stop any bill becoming law isn't how I'd define democracy. I suppose in your world having 900+ unelected members of the House of Lords is also democratic.
    I know you don't really care about anyone elses opinion, but no I don't like the house of lords, because they're unelected but have a real impact. The truth is that the queen is there for ceremony and tradition only. So it's silly, but democratically it's not an issue.

  15. #15

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Perhaps we should allow one further referendum the options on the ballott being :

    As you have instructed HM Goverment to leave the EU please advise which option you prefer:

    1. Leave on WTO rules ( no deal.)

    2. Leave via the agreed withdrawal deal terms
    And 3. Leave all this crap behind and Remain

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    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorcus View Post
    And 3. Leave all this crap behind and Remain
    3a. Leave and relocate all the Remoaners inside the EU

  17. #17

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    3a. Leave and relocate all the Remoaners inside the EU
    3b sit on the fence

  18. #18

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dorcus View Post
    And 3. Leave all this crap behind and Remain
    Your missing the point,we had that democratic remain and leave vote a while back.

    It is so ironic folk criticise the Boris for his undemocratic actions in parliament, whilst ignoring the biggest attack on democracy , by MP's the 2016 referendum result .

  19. #19

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Your missing the point,we had that democratic remain and leave vote a while back.

    It is so ironic folk criticise the Boris for his undemocratic actions in parliament, whilst ignoring the biggest attack on democracy , by MP's the 2016 referendum result .
    For about the ten trillionth time that bite was taunted in illegality due to fines imposed by electoral commission.

    Some democracy eh!

  20. #20

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    3a. Leave and relocate all the Remoaners inside the EU
    Yes please. Pension age would need to rise to about 80 with immediate effect in the UK if that happens.

  21. #21

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Your missing the point,we had that democratic remain and leave vote a while back.

    It is so ironic folk criticise the Boris for his undemocratic actions in parliament, whilst ignoring the biggest attack on democracy , by MP's the 2016 referendum result .
    How have MP's attacked democracy?

  22. #22

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    How have MP's attacked democracy?
    By not delivering a democratic leave result , and simply looking for any tactic to stop the decision being deployed .

    You knew that to be the answer anyway ,please don't type the tired remainers mantra, they weren't voting for a no deal its the most worn out exuse I've heard .

  23. #23
    International jon1959's Avatar
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    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    By not delivering a democratic leave result , and simply looking for any tactic to stop the decision being deployed .

    You knew that to be the answer anyway ,please don't type the tired remainers mantra, they weren't voting for a no deal its the most worn out exuse I've heard .
    Go back to January this year. Theresa May's Brexit deal was defeated by 202 votes to 432. The 432 MPs who rejected it were not all Remainers. All the DUP MPs votes against, as did 196 Tories, the vast majority of whom were Leavers - including most of the current Cabinet. Most of them voted against the May deal at least twice (Johnson, Raab, Rees-Mogg etc) and some voted her down every time she put up her deal - however many times that was. The failure to get a deal through Parliament is as much due to Brexit hard-liners as it is to Remain supporters.

    And all of them were doing their job of holding the executive to account, scrutinising legislation and representing the interests of their electorate - who put them in place to do that job (on whatever Manifesto their parties had adopted) a full year after the referendum.

    The failure to deliver any version of Brexit to date is not because MPs have attacked democracy. They have upheld democracy. The failure is one of confused process, intransigent and inflexible government, a failure of leadership, diplomacy and effective negotiation.
    There have been any number of alternative outcomes that were possible - if Theresa May's red lines hadn't ruled them out, and if the government had tried to work with other parties in the UK and Europe in a genuine and constructive way. But the government has only ever been concerned with the interests of the Conservative Party and ending the 40 year civil war over Europe.

    Over 3 years were wasted and attitudes have hardened on both sides of the argument. We are now much more polarised as a country than in 2016. Brexit has become a toxic nightmare. The majority of MPs are not responsible for that - the blame lies with the UK government. Giving that bunch of incompetent, cloth-eared idiots a blank cheque would be the real betrayal of democracy. For all its many faults Parliament has finally started (maybe too late) to show some leadership and responsibility.

    Oh yes, and very few Leavers were voting for 'no deal' in the summer of 2016. That wasn't on the ballot paper and none of the Leave campaigners were offering that as an outcome.

  24. #24

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    Go back to January this year. Theresa May's Brexit deal was defeated by 202 votes to 432. The 432 MPs who rejected it were not all Remainers. All the DUP MPs votes against, as did 196 Tories, the vast majority of whom were Leavers - including most of the current Cabinet. Most of them voted against the May deal at least twice (Johnson, Raab, Rees-Mogg etc) and some voted her down every time she put up her deal - however many times that was. The failure to get a deal through Parliament is as much due to Brexit hard-liners as it is to Remain supporters.

    And all of them were doing their job of holding the executive to account, scrutinising legislation and representing the interests of their electorate - who put them in place to do that job (on whatever Manifesto their parties had adopted) a full year after the referendum.

    The failure to deliver any version of Brexit to date is not because MPs have attacked democracy. They have upheld democracy. The failure is one of confused process, intransigent and inflexible government, a failure of leadership, diplomacy and effective negotiation.
    There have been any number of alternative outcomes that were possible - if Theresa May's red lines hadn't ruled them out, and if the government had tried to work with other parties in the UK and Europe in a genuine and constructive way. But the government has only ever been concerned with the interests of the Conservative Party and ending the 40 year civil war over Europe.

    Over 3 years were wasted and attitudes have hardened on both sides of the argument. We are now much more polarised as a country than in 2016. Brexit has become a toxic nightmare. The majority of MPs are not responsible for that - the blame lies with the UK government. Giving that bunch of incompetent, cloth-eared idiots a blank cheque would be the real betrayal of democracy. For all its many faults Parliament has finally started (maybe too late) to show some leadership and responsibility.

    Oh yes, and very few Leavers were voting for 'no deal' in the summer of 2016. That wasn't on the ballot paper and none of the Leave campaigners were offering that as an outcome.

    Nail on the head 👏👏

  25. #25

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2 View Post
    Nail on the head 👏👏
    Yes agree. The amount of history being rewritten is startling.

  26. #26

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Yes agree. The amount of history being rewritten is startling.
    It certainly has been for LOM. His myopic view that itís everyoneís fault but the main culprits ie the Tory party and their internal. squabbling is very baffling.

  27. #27

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2 View Post
    Nail on the head ����
    So when the next big strike is voted on by 30 % of a workforce but effecting folks day to day earnings and lives, can we order another vote as we dont agree with it , based on our lack of knowledge as to the reasons why the strike is taking place , and non striking people basically dont agree it as it badly effects there ordinary lives and they are and powerless people to stop it or agree with it , and its usually the poorer in society it hurts more .

  28. #28

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    So when the next big strike is voted on by 30 % of a workforce but effecting folks day to day earnings and lives, can we order another vote as we dont agree with it , based on our lack of knowledge as to the reasons why the strike is taking place , and non striking people basically dont agree it as it badly effects there ordinary lives and they are and powerless people to stop it or agree with it , and its usually the poorer in society it hurts more .
    So Jon gave a a forensic analysis of why your protestations why parliament is to blame for where we are is bogus. You gave a 100 word irrelevant single sentence in response!

  29. #29

    Re: Coup, what coup?

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    So Jon gave a a forensic analysis of why your protestations why parliament is to blame for where we are is bogus. You gave a 100 word irrelevant single sentence in response!
    Iíve read it, read it again and and Iím still non plussed. I just keep imagining an irate member of the Question time audience going off one.

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