Justin Trudeau

[Gofer Blue]

This one is tougher for you, but I reckon you'll be able to start blaming Jeremy Corbyn for it in a post or two's time.

I've not been to many fancy dress parties in my life, but there's never been anyone dressed as Hitler, or a Nazi, or blacked/browned up at the ones I have been to. That said, I tend to agree that people are going well over the top with this and I can't help thinking that as someone whose natural political enemies would be on the right, this is probably driven by a feeling of hypocrisy against Trudeau because, rightly or wrongly, it is felt that he would be joining in with the condemnation if it was someone else who had been involved.

I must say mind that most, if not all, of those who have contributed to this thread are of an age whereby they can remember a BBC television programme, which went out at a peak time, that consisted of men who had been blacked up singing songs. I used to ask myself what is the point of the Black and White Minstrel Show and hardly ever watched it, but it was all part of a culture around in the 60s to 80s which shaped the type of people we became.

In light of that, it's hardly a surprise that us of a certain age react like we do to stories like this, but we have to face the fact that there are a substantial number out there who have not been brought up during an age where mocking minorities, sexist and/or racist behaviour etc. was commonplace and they find the thinking behind something like the Black and White Minstrel Show offensive - who's to say that it is not those who are, say, under 30 who have got this right and us who have got it wrong?

Being of that "certain age" myself, I well remember the Black & White Minstrel Show. Like you I hardly ever watched it unless my grandmother had it on the TV when I called there. She loved the programme because it always consisted of those gentle sing-along type songs which she enjoyed very much. The fact that the blokes were blacked up was irrelevant to her and to imagine that she was some kind of extreme right wing Neo-Nazi type is simply laughable!

[the other bob wilson]

Being of that "certain age" myself, I well remember the Black & White Minstrel Show. Like you I hardly ever watched it unless my grandmother had it on the TV when I called there. She loved the programme because it always consisted of those gentle sing-along type songs which she enjoyed very much. The fact that the blokes were blacked up was irrelevant to her and to imagine that she was some kind of extreme right wing Neo-Nazi type is simply laughable!

If that last sentence was directed at me then you've completely missed the point I was trying to make. My parents used to regularly watch the Black and White Minstrel Show and there is no way on earth that my mum was a racist, but my dad was like so many around then in that he would say things that would probably get him into arguments these days, but he was an example of the point I wanted to make, he was a product of his time and, as such, it was no surprise that he was like he was.

As part of the generation that came after my father's, I had no problem as such with the Black and White Minstrel Show and I still rate Fawlty Towers as the funniest comedy series I've ever seen, I used to enjoy watching Alf Garnett ranting away in Till Death Us Do Part as well, but drew the line at Love my Neighbour which, besides being plain not funny, went the wrong side of the line for me, while I'd watch a show like Mind Your Language while thinking what am I doing watching this - for me, John Cleese and Warren Mitchell's characters worked because they were the target of the humour.

Coming back to the Black and White Minstrel Show, if the only reason it was popular was, as you imply, the songs that were being sung, the obvious questions that arise is why was there any need for the singers to be blacked up and, if the songs that were being sung were of a traditional negro spiritual type, why not have black performers singing them? The only possible answer I can come up with is that the makers of the show believed that the audience they got would be smaller if black performers were used.

My point is that in the time the show was being broadcast, I don't think there was too much controversy around about its format. I daresay there were some in the white community who found it offensive, but nowhere remotely close to a majority - youngsters who label the show racist now need to realise that if there was racism, it was of an unconscious type on most people's part, but I accept that the critical feelings of any non whites about the show were, basically, just ignored.

That show would never be broadcast today and I think Fawlty Towers and Till Death Us Do Part would have had to be "toned down" somewhat if they were to make it onto the screens now. I repeat, maybe our generation needs to question sometimes whether those that come after us have got things more right than we did?

[Gofer Blue]

If that last sentence was directed at me then you've completely missed the point I was trying to make. My parents used to regularly watch the Black and White Minstrel Show and there is no way on earth that my mum was a racist, but my dad was like so many around then in that he would say things that would probably get him into arguments these days, but he was an example of the point I wanted to make, he was a product of his time and, as such, it was no surprise that he was like he was.

As part of the generation that came after my father's, I had no problem as such with the Black and White Minstrel Show and I still rate Fawlty Towers as the funniest comedy series I've ever seen, I used to enjoy watching Alf Garnett ranting away in Till Death Us Do Part as well, but drew the line at Love my Neighbour which, besides being plain not funny, went the wrong side of the line for me, while I'd watch a show like Mind Your Language while thinking what am I doing watching this - for me, John Cleese and Warren Mitchell's characters worked because they were the target of the humour.

Coming back to the Black and White Minstrel Show, if the only reason it was popular was, as you imply, the songs that were being sung, the obvious questions that arise is why was there any need for the singers to be blacked up and, if the songs that were being sung were of a traditional negro spiritual type, why not have black performers singing them? The only possible answer I can come up with is that the makers of the show believed that the audience they got would be smaller if black performers were used.

My point is that in the time the show was being broadcast, I don't think there was too much controversy around about its format. I daresay there were some in the white community who found it offensive, but nowhere remotely close to a majority - youngsters who label the show racist now need to realise that if there was racism, it was of an unconscious type on most people's part, but I accept that the critical feelings of any non whites about the show were, basically, just ignored.

That show would never be broadcast today and I think Fawlty Towers and Till Death Us Do Part would have had to be "toned down" somewhat if they were to make it onto the screens now. I repeat, maybe our generation needs to question sometimes whether those that come after us have got things more right than we did?

No, it was not directed at you - I'm surprised you thought that, as I totally agree with your post. It was directed at the younger generation you refer to who might imagine that my grandmother was some kind of rabid racist for watching a programme where white blokes blacked their faces. Regarding your question about why the BBC did not employ black singers, I wonder where there many around at that time who could sing those kind of "crooner" songs? Harry Belafonte perhaps?

What about the jazz bands of the 1920's in the valleys during the general strike? Would they too be considered racist today?