Warnock getting the best out the team/squad again..

[1927stepsbeyond]

Ajayi is an interesting one - don't blame NW for not putting the faith in him at the time. We had a trusted 3 and even the most forward-thinking of gaff's probably couldn't have stomached the naive mistakes that come with being a young CB learning on the job, let alone our Neil. I however would've tried keeping him on the books for what would've been peanuts in the grand scheme.

Ajayi has shown glimpses this season & last that he falls into that new breed of ball-playing, risk taking centre halves - the sort that threatens to make our beloved Darren Purse types rapidly extinct. Most dominant Championship sides of the past couple years (Norwich, Sheff Utd, Fulham, arguably Wolves) have used a ball-playing centre half in an attempt to boss proceedings & it would not to surprise me to see Ajayi playing Prem football in a couple of years as more clubs try Barca it.

However, I for one am sceptical as to whether the Ajayi of today would even make Neil's top 2 when you consider the way we're setting up. Two no-nonsenser's seems the shout & at the tender age of 25 little Semi would still be one for the future. Excuse the tangent - I know it began a matter of 'shrewd'.

As for getting the best out of the boys - can't think of another man on Earth who would've got more from them - saying that, can't think of another manager who would've assembled this group. The most Warnock side. Much like Loramski said above - the man who inherits the squad will find it hard to do much different from Neil & I expect it to be a matter of rebuilding and PAITIENCE.

Utmost respect for inheriting that shitshow in '16, installing a quick-fix & the beautiful shithousery that was the 17/18 season. As much as I disagree with his transfers/philosophy, you cannot doubt his man-management and nous at this level. However, it makes me sad to see something like 'getting the best out of' - the fact is that with our resources, we should be dominanating most sides. Call me 'half-empty' but we have had tens of millions at our disposal these last few windows & continue with this shrewd, underdog mindset (of which Warnock is undoubtedly master) - but was it necessary this season? We had the pick of the championship and ended up with Oxford boys. IMO we consistently underspend. 40odd% possession vs Wigan spoke volumes about what was to come.

I would never call for wily old Neil's head & am not quick to forget staring down the barrel in October '16, nor will I forget Cambridge '99. Yet I cannot help but feel this season, much like last, will be an opportunity missed. We will be there or there-abouts, but how one-dimensional we are will probably cost us. We should be more than to have to resort to phrases like 'getting the best out of'. As a club we are capable of more that that sh*te.

As previous have stated, I am reaching a point where I'd rather a complete overhaul in an attempt to achieve one of these mystical long-term visions you hear about. Our lack of playing identity & foundation have cost us in years gone by & I could deal with a few seasons on the wayside if it meant we more equipped next time we get to the plastic promised land. We look a decent outfit & enjoying do-ing Boro, but think it time we gamble on some new blood next summer.

(Excuse the bloody essay, 'twas a grave mistake sticking me on the night shift !)

CMON CITAY

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Ajayi is an interesting one - don't blame NW for not putting the faith in him at the time. We had a trusted 3 and even the most forward-thinking of gaff's probably couldn't have stomached the naive mistakes that come with being a young CB learning on the job, let alone our Neil. I however would've tried keeping him on the books for what would've been peanuts in the grand scheme.

Ajayi has shown glimpses this season & last that he falls into that new breed of ball-playing, risk taking centre halves - the sort that threatens to make our beloved Darren Purse types rapidly extinct. Most dominant Championship sides of the past couple years (Norwich, Sheff Utd, Fulham, arguably Wolves) have used a ball-playing centre half in an attempt to boss proceedings & it would not to surprise me to see Ajayi playing Prem football in a couple of years as more clubs try Barca it.

However, I for one am sceptical as to whether the Ajayi of today would even make Neil's top 2 when you consider the way we're setting up. Two no-nonsenser's seems the shout & at the tender age of 25 little Semi would still be one for the future. Excuse the tangent - I know it began a matter of 'shrewd'.

As for getting the best out of the boys - can't think of another man on Earth who would've got more from them - saying that, can't think of another manager who would've assembled this group. The most Warnock side. Much like Loramski said above - the man who inherits the squad will find it hard to do much different from Neil & I expect it to be a matter of rebuilding and PAITIENCE.

Utmost respect for inheriting that shitshow in '16, installing a quick-fix & the beautiful shithousery that was the 17/18 season. As much as I disagree with his transfers/philosophy, you cannot doubt his man-management and nous at this level. However, it makes me sad to see something like 'getting the best out of' - the fact is that with our resources, we should be dominanating most sides. Call me 'half-empty' but we have had tens of millions at our disposal these last few windows & continue with this shrewd, underdog mindset (of which Warnock is undoubtedly master) - but was it necessary this season? We had the pick of the championship and ended up with Oxford boys. IMO we consistently underspend. 40odd% possession vs Wigan spoke volumes about what was to come.

I would never call for wily old Neil's head & am not quick to forget staring down the barrel in October '16, nor will I forget Cambridge '99. Yet I cannot help but feel this season, much like last, will be an opportunity missed. We will be there or there-abouts, but how one-dimensional we are will probably cost us. We should be more than to have to resort to phrases like 'getting the best out of'. As a club we are capable of more that that sh*te.

As previous have stated, I am reaching a point where I'd rather a complete overhaul in an attempt to achieve one of these mystical long-term visions you hear about. Our lack of playing identity & foundation have cost us in years gone by & I could deal with a few seasons on the wayside if it meant we more equipped next time we get to the plastic promised land. We look a decent outfit & enjoying do-ing Boro, but think it time we gamble on some new blood next summer.

(Excuse the bloody essay, 'twas a grave mistake sticking me on the night shift !)

CMON CITAY

Top post.

My fear is that those in power at the club aren't all that interested in a long term plan. I think back to Malky's appointment. He was given 3 years to get the club promoted. As we did unexpectedly well in his first season, Tan and the board demanded promotion the following season. The start of the 2012/13 promotion season showed potential but there were cracks. After we shipped 5 at Charlton, Malky ripped up the way we played and turned us into a more defensive side that spent the season grinding out results. Malky had a plan that has to change because of short termism by the board.

If Warnock is under similar pressure to get promotion as quickly as possible, then how are we ever going to build an identity? We're constantly going to be a side that seeks to be ruthlessly efficient. Results over anything else. When Warnock goes, what's the betting that the new man will be someone to get us promotion rather than someone who can lay the foundations for the club long term?

[the other bob wilson]

Nail. Head.
And even the season prior to that when NW arrived, we were fighting relegation into the New Year. We were only 4 points clear of the relegation zone after our game on Boxing Day Vs Brentford.
No way was Warnock risking Ajayi after he found the formula to drag us out of the mire and no one on here was vocal about it either at the time.

I can't speak for others, but I wasn't arguing for Ajayi's inclusion in the first team every week midway through 16/17. It is a matter of fact however that we signed two centrebacks this summer to cover the loss of Bruno and one of them is a thirty year old who we could well end up spending £6 million on, while a player we gave away for virtually nothing is starting every week for a team like West Brom. That doesn't strike me as especially "shrewd" on our manager's part and, although I accept that there have been some good posts in this thread arguing a different point of view, I can't help thinking that the response would have been different if, say, Russell Slade was still our manager.

[Loramski]

I can't speak for others, but I wasn't arguing for Ajayi's inclusion in the first team every week midway through 16/17. It is a matter of fact however that we signed two centrebacks this summer to cover the loss of Bruno and one of them is a thirty year old who we could well end up spending £6 million on, while a player we gave away for virtually nothing is starting every week for a team like West Brom. That doesn't strike me as especially "shrewd" on our manager's part and, although I accept that there have been some good posts in this thread arguing a different point of view, I can't help thinking that the response would have been different if, say, Russell Slade was still our manager.

I agree with 1927stepsbeyond, I don't think Warnock would fancy Ajayi even if was still here. He'd probably have gone out and bought Flint anyway.

The danger with criticising Warnock is that there's always a chance he's going to make a fool of you and somehow get this team up. At least with Slade you could confidently be as rude as you liked about him and know there wasn't a remote possibility he'd prove you wrong.

[1927stepsbeyond]

Top post.

My fear is that those in power at the club aren't all that interested in a long term plan. I think back to Malky's appointment. He was given 3 years to get the club promoted. As we did unexpectedly well in his first season, Tan and the board demanded promotion the following season. The start of the 2012/13 promotion season showed potential but there were cracks. After we shipped 5 at Charlton, Malky ripped up the way we played and turned us into a more defensive side that spent the season grinding out results. Malky had a plan that has to change because of short termism by the board.

If Warnock is under similar pressure to get promotion as quickly as possible, then how are we ever going to build an identity? We're constantly going to be a side that seeks to be ruthlessly efficient. Results over anything else. When Warnock goes, what's the betting that the new man will be someone to get us promotion rather than someone who can lay the foundations for the club long term?

Cheers Eric.

That night down Charlton spooked Malky & definitely set us back. I recall many'a frantic last 10mins as we struggled to see games out later that yr. I remember leaving The Valley in the 89th minute with the score 5-2 to try catch the earlier train home from Paddington. Thought I was clever. Checked my phone on the cockney carriage to see Gunnar had made it 5-4 in the 95th minute - was kicking myself. Fair-weather sod. Probably would've finished 7-2 if I'd stayed.

Couldn't agree more regarding the short-termism of those at the top. I feel that Neil was given this season due to a combination of gratitude, loyalty, his frugality & his track record as a Jesus of this level. Regardless of where we end up this year, his time here will be considered a success & rightfully so. I wouldn't imagine he feels much pressure from the board / anyone, he's already proven himself.

I couldn't think of anything worse than employing a Rowett-type Championship merry-go-rounder; someone gagging for gig & would once again leave us in that same 'now or never' position. The boys upstairs are not 'football people' - I doubt any of their long-term visions stretch past our quarterly turnover. I'm not going to pretend to be some sort of Bundesliga 2 expert who'll pluck the answer from the Hamburg u18's side - but when those vagabonds from way out west seem to simply conjure top manager after top manager, year after year, it makes me wonder what the f*ck anyone in our set-up is doing with their spare time. The same can be said about youth recruitment.

For me it'd have to be Steve Cotterill, Gary Johnson or Phil Brown - get some fresh ideas in there !

[rudy gestede]

I couldn't think of anything worse than employing a Rowett-type Championship merry-go-rounder; someone gagging for gig & would once again leave us in that same 'now or never' position.

For me it'd have to be Steve Cotterill, Gary Johnson or Phil Brown - get some fresh ideas in there !

I thought you were talking complete sense until this, I can’t imagine any more short term championship “Merry go rounder’ than those 3.

They’d all be a Warnock downgrade.

[1927stepsbeyond]

I thought you were talking complete sense until this, I can’t imagine any more short term championship “Merry go rounder’ than those 3.

They’d all be a Warnock downgrade.

Steve Cotterill is the greatest football manager of all time.

[The Bob Banker Spanker]

I thought you were talking complete sense until this, I can’t imagine any more short term championship “Merry go rounder’ than those 3.

They’d all be a Warnock downgrade.

Woooosshhh

[Divine Wright]

Can't argue with that, and whilst Warnock has under-performed in the transfer market even by his questionable standards, I stand by my original quote ; were these set of players under another manager I doubt we would be out of the bottom 6..

That’s like commending someone’s washing skills after they shit the bed but leave the sheets impeccably white afterwards.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

Good post again. I'm hoping that the two problems you're talking about are connected and that even Dalman and Choo realise there's not much point in trying to create a modern, rational football club while Warnock's still here but that they also realise he's probably the only manager who can do anything with the squad he's created so they're just crossing their fingers and hoping he can pull another promotion rabbit out of the hat. His legacy will then be a financial one with which we can finally start to put down foundations and building blocks and move towards being the kind of club that you talk of. That's probably a load of bollocks but it's all I've got I'm afraid.

By the way, Ajayi was offered a three year contract by Rotherham so I'm not sure he'd have been tempted by a one year, or even two, extension from us. There was a fee involved as well apparently, undisclosed though. Hopefully we're learning from our failure to bring youngsters through. I'd like to think that we've got some genuine first team prospects in our youth set-up now, let's see how we handle them in the next couple of years. I worry about TOBW, if none of the current crop make the first team I think he might spontaneously combust.

Agree. When Warnock's gone and if we're still in the Championship I'd expect a change of direction re. manager. TBOW's point about letting Ajayi go and spending a few million on Flint is valid, insomuch that he could well have developed into a top CB for us. However, he went to Rotherham and got relegated so maybe he wouldn't have been much use to us in any of the past 3 seasons. He probably needed a couple of yrs of 1st team football to develop - which we couldn't risk giving him. Warnock forked out decent money for Flint because he a proven defender and could come straight in...

[A Quiet Monkfish]

My points in this thread are not necessarily aimed at Warnock and are not necessarily a defence of Semi Ajayi either.

I don't expect Warnock to build a lasting legacy here, he's been in the game for decades and I don't believe he has done that anywhere he has ever been.

He will move on when he moves on and the club will build again from scratch with no foundations or building blocks.

My argument goes beyond that to why we are so unwilling to move with the times as a club and embrace the fact that football is moving very quickly and it's no longer Barry Fry on the phone in his portakabin, or Harry Redknapp wheeling and dealing like delboy trotter.

Why are people like Dalman coming out in the media and basically stating that they are satisfied with our "transfer committee" and structure that we have in place that would have looked amateur in 1986?

If I am gonna mention Ajayi it wouldn't be to say throw him in during our promotion season despite our defence being our anchor and platform at the time but to say why didn't our club see that the kid had potential and a new deal followed by a season on loan could have saved us 6 million on Flint?

If we don't go up this year or next then the parachute payments will dry up and we'll be in the same (or worse) position as the other 22 clubs in the championship.

Swansea have on the pitch assets to protect them from crashing and burning and they're also able to field a team of cost effective players (barring one or two left over from their premier league legacy!) who are on low wages with a genuine affinity with the club.

Even the richest clubs in the country are doing the same. Chelsea, Liverpool, Leicester, Manchester United, Spurs are all shunning big transfer fees to produce their own.

We are just closing our eyes and pretending that everything is the same as 30 years ago!

I'd be interested to find out how many 'home grown' players each Championship club used this weekend. I doubt it's no more than an average of 2, perhaps closer to 1. The Championship is getting tougher each season and risking players who's experience is just a kick-about on a weekday afternoon is unlikely to send a team up the table. I think the biggest change the club could make - in the event of Warnock leaving - would be to get another Dave Jones type manager. We had[ skilfull] players coming in on loan from all over the place because managers were happy to send them here. Same also applied to signings like Chopra, Bothroyd, McCormack, McPhail, Scimeca, - this list is extensive..

[thehumblegringo]

I've only had 2 minutes to check a few teams but in their squads on Saturday

Swansea had 7 players though admittedly some were signed from other academies so weren't at Swansea from when they were 9 but still came through the academy.

Derby would have had 5 if Mason Bennett was available

Reading had 4

West Brom had 3

And even Fulham had 2

Bear in mind that these clubs have lost players like Dan James, Ollie Mcburnie, Harvey Barnes, Harvey Elliott, Ryan Sessengon, and West Brom lost a kid to Barcelona recently then it still completely puts us in the shade

[Croesy Blue]

I can still remember the grief Dave Jones got for not playing youth players yet under him Aaron Ramsey, Chris Gunter, Darcy Blake, Cameron Jerome and Aaron Wildig all were given starts for the first team. Imagine how much grief he'd be getting now?

[A Quiet Monkfish]

I've only had 2 minutes to check a few teams but in their squads on Saturday

Swansea had 7 players though admittedly some were signed from other academies so weren't at Swansea from when they were 9 but still came through the academy.

Derby would have had 5 if Mason Bennett was available

Reading had 4

West Brom had 3

And even Fulham had 2

Bear in mind that these clubs have lost players like Dan James, Ollie Mcburnie, Harvey Barnes, Harvey Elliott, Ryan Sessengon, and West Brom lost a kid to Barcelona recently then it still completely puts us in the shade

Wow. Didn't think it was that many. There's absolutely no logistical, geographical, or demographic reason why Swansea is light yrs ahead of us in terms of home-grown talent - and they have been for decades..

[qccfc]

Wow. Didn't think it was that many. There's absolutely no logistical, geographical, or demographic reason why Swansea is light yrs ahead of us in terms of home-grown talent - and they have been for decades..

In Reality only Rondon, Roberts and Jordan Garrick are academy products.

Byers, Grimes and Fulton were all signed in the 20s to play U23 football and develop. They spent no or next to no time in the academy system.

[thehumblegringo]

In Reality only Rondon, Roberts and Jordan Garrick are academy products.

Byers, Grimes and Fulton were all signed in the 20s to play U23 football and develop. They spent no or next to no time in the academy system.

Then the same applies to Joe Ralls so the only "success" of the last 10 years is Declan John who we let go for free!

Personally I think we did develop Joe Ralls, in the same way as Swansea developed Byers etc but you can also Cabango, Harries, Jack Evans to Swansea players who have had game time in their first team this season and they have all been completely developed by the club.

[thehumblegringo]

Wow. Didn't think it was that many. There's absolutely no logistical, geographical, or demographic reason why Swansea is light yrs ahead of us in terms of home-grown talent - and they have been for decades..

I think that's the way football is going at the moment.

In the premier league I don't think it has a great deal to do with finances, it's just the fact that these kids are superb and nobody wants to see another Jadon Sancho situation.

In the championship it simply has to happen in order for clubs to be sustainable.

[qccfc]

Then the same applies to Joe Ralls so the only "success" of the last 10 years is Declan John who we let go for free!

Personally I think we did develop Joe Ralls, in the same way as Swansea developed Byers etc but you can also Cabango, Harries, Jack Evans to Swansea players who have had game time in their first team this season and they have all been completely developed by the club.

I disagree we signed Ralls he spent less than 6 months in our academy before playing first team football.

Swansea decided on a policy of scouting younger players who they could then loan out, play in their U23s. They signed James, McBurnie, Grimes, Byers, Fulton, and others, James was the only one who spent time in their academy, and that was less than 1 year. This is not the sign of a successful academy, its the sign of a successful scout and sign policy.

You totally over egg the pudding with regards to Swansea's academy. In reality they had 3 players in their squad Saturday that spent time in their academy not 7.

[thehumblegringo]

I disagree we signed Ralls he spent less than 6 months in our academy before playing first team football.

Swansea decided on a policy of scouting younger players who they could then loan out, play in their U23s. They signed James, McBurnie, Grimes, Byers, Fulton, and others, James was the only one who spent time in their academy, and that was less than 1 year. This is not the sign of a successful academy, its the sign of a successful scout and sign policy.

You totally over egg the pudding with regards to Swansea's academy. In reality they had 3 players in their squad Saturday that spent time in their academy not 7.

The u23s is their academy as far as I'm concerned. James was 15 when he signed I believe so he was definitely developed by Swansea and I don't see how you can argue any different.

What about Jack Evans, Ben Cabango (who was on trial at Cardiff 3 times when he was 14/15) and Cian Harries? All have made competitive appearances in their first team.

It's a joined up approach. You are never gonna bring 11 players through from one age group so in order to make your academy competitive as it gets to u18, u23 you have to supplement the better players with talent from elsewhere.

Birmingham have a 16 year old Jude Bellingham who has been playing and scoring for them this season.

[the other bob wilson]

I disagree we signed Ralls he spent less than 6 months in our academy before playing first team football.

Swansea decided on a policy of scouting younger players who they could then loan out, play in their U23s. They signed James, McBurnie, Grimes, Byers, Fulton, and others, James was the only one who spent time in their academy, and that was less than 1 year. This is not the sign of a successful academy, its the sign of a successful scout and sign policy.

You totally over egg the pudding with regards to Swansea's academy. In reality they had 3 players in their squad Saturday that spent time in their academy not 7.

Joe Ralls made his first team debut in August 2011 and I was sure this came after a full season playing for the Academy side. Having just checked my blog, I can confirm that this is correct because there's a report on a 2-0 win over Bristol City in which he scored both of the goals from October 2010 which mentions his summer move from Farnborough - it's down to opinions, but mine is that a full season in our Under 18 team means that he can probably be called a Cardiff Academy product.

[life on mars]

To be fair we have brought young talent through over the years :

Adam Matthews
Ramsey.
Gunter.
Declan John.
Ledley.
Ralls.
James Collins
Andy Dibble
Gabbidon.
Nathan Blake .
Toshack.
Peter Rodrigues

To name but a few

[Ianto13]

With Big Sam or Pulis in charge we would walk the Championship, these two build identical teams to Warnock but are also more successful in the Premier League!

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Then the same applies to Joe Ralls so the only "success" of the last 10 years is Declan John who we let go for free!

Personally I think we did develop Joe Ralls, in the same way as Swansea developed Byers etc but you can also Cabango, Harries, Jack Evans to Swansea players who have had game time in their first team this season and they have all been completely developed by the club.

Harries is another one the Jacks have bought. He's got 10 or so games for Coventry before they signed him. Swansea know what they're doing, they have a Cat 1 academy and are buying young players for peanuts.

While we are behind and have to kick on, looking at the welsh set up currently, who is coming from South East Wales? It's a bit depressing. Also, disappointing Coxe didn't get any game time last night. The game was sewn up so would have been a free hit to blood him.

[the other bob wilson]

To be fair we have brought young talent through over the years :

Adam Matthews
Ramsey.
Gunter.
Declan John.
Ledley.
Ralls.
James Collins
Andy Dibble
Gabbidon.
Nathan Blake .
Toshack.
Peter Rodrigues

To name but a few

We signed Gabbidon from West Brom.

I don't think anyone is disputing that we produced plenty of our own players in the past, but that just accentuates how useless we've been at doing it in the last ten years or so - at least Cameron Coxe being on the bench last night is a very small step in the right direction.

[NYCBlue]

We signed Gabbidon from West Brom.

I don't think anyone is disputing that we produced plenty of our own players in the past, but that just accentuates how useless we've been at doing it in the last ten years or so - at least Cameron Coxe being on the bench last night is a very small step in the right direction.

Nathan Blake came via Newport County and Chelsea. So that's 10 players in the last 50 years and none in the last 10.