Jewish group walks away from Labour

[jon1959]

No, I think I specifically said both you and Trampie ,for example , aren't anti Semitic . Even tobw isn't anti Semitic.
I honestly didn't think anyone here might be anti Semitic , but if you read over the posts, two people have ticked some boxes which are very worrying.
When we hear someone use the term " your sort" , that's really not good. When someone says that someone Jewish can't
be " ethnically English ", ( whatever that means) , that's spelling it out.
That's a surprising by product of the thread,which is about the effect on labour of not addressing the subject properly. I fully admit that I was very shocked to hear it here at my club and to hear it from people claiming to represent labour , because I'd thought it was more a case of being thoughtless than intentional ,( which it mainly is). However , although I still don't think it's widespread , I'm now convinced that some actually are motivated by plain race hate, and that REALLY should be challenged.

You really have been challenged. unfortunately you seem incapable of understanding or taking notice. I am still waiting for you to accept that approving comments on the George Soros conspiracy theories (and his mindless dupes) references is not clever; nor is constantly and uncritically endorsing apartheid/racist policies; equating the allegiances and interests of British Jewish people with those of the Israeli state; downplaying or dismissing the racism experienced by people other than Jews; and demonising lifelong anti-racist campaigners who oppose the political ideology of Zionism. Your posts never engage with the facts or the ideas behind these things. You just troll the board and throw out abuse against other posters whilst managing to be patronising, self-satisfied and boorish all at the same time.

I assume from some of your recent posts (and through a process of elimination) that the two posters you have decided are anti-semitic are Dorcus and me. Me because I oppose the Zionist ideology that underpins the Israeli state and have argued that some of the allegations made against Labour are false or exaggerated (whilst others are justified) and that in part this is a campaign against Corbyn and the Palestine solidarity movement (especially BDS)?

Is that it? If so i repeat my earlier comment on you: You really are apiece of work! I don't want you to misunderstand that expression again, so he is a definistion:

.... a piece of work is also used as an idiom to describe someone who is unpleasant, dishonest, hard to deal with, of low character.



https://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...s_of_zion.html

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-49584157

[RonnieBird]

Once again , I wish you could make a point without the name calling. That's a little clue in itself of course.

Anyway, I'm very confused by this stuff you're saying - and said before- that I defend apartheid and various racism. I don't think I do really. You've also mentioned George Soros before... No I don't like him or the things he tries to do but I don't understand why that somehow makes me the bad guy . Maybe you could explain the logic of that ?

Since I never named the culprits, why do you think people might think you and Dorcus might be anti Semites ?

[jon1959]

Once again , I wish you could make a point without the name calling. That's a little clue in itself of course.

Anyway, I'm very confused by this stuff you're saying - and said before- that I defend apartheid and various racism. I don't think I do really. You've also mentioned George Soros before... No I don't like him or the things he tries to do but I don't understand why that somehow makes me the bad guy . Maybe you could explain the logic of that ?

Since I never named the culprits, why do you think people might think you and Dorcus might be anti Semites ?

I don't think 'people' think that. Quite the opposite. I assumed you thought that - or rather thought it would be an insinuation that would get you bites. And you were right - I bit.

If you ever want a grown up discussion about: Israel and its' laws and policies towards Israeli and Palestinian arabs; the British anti-racist tradition; the various strands of Zionism (which I admit causes me some trouble - not all Zionists think the same); the case for and against BDS; the use and abuse of anti-semitic tropes; the rising number of anti-semitic attacks (physical as well as verbal) in Europe and North America; why Islamophobia is racism, cases in Labour which illustrate the existence of anti-semitic views but other cases that show false or distorted claims have been made; the real fears that have been stoked in the British Jewish community - though some experiences but mainly through a press campaign; the slow death of a two state solution to the Israel/Palestine conflict and what alternatives remain; the role of social media in all this.... any of that stuff, I am happy to discuss and debate those issues.

But you won't. You will carry on with your alt right diatribes. You will carry on labelling socialists as Nazis. You will carry on with your claims that the Labour Party is planning a new holocaust (that really is what you have been saying!). You will carry on deflecting and avoiding facts and evidence. You will carry on with those strange boasts about your supposed connections or influence and you will carry on being bewildered that no one is impressed. You will carry on trolling.

[RonnieBird]

I thought for a moment there that you were going to post something without any name calling, but you did it right at the end.

All that stuff about Israel is interesting but it should be a separate thread - maybe I'll start one.
It's very unwise to qualify disapproval of racism in the political world, which labour has somewhat done. You are also doing it, which isn't as electorally destructive because we presume that it's your personal opinion. Nonetheless , you're doing them no favours even with this small audience.
I haven't said that Labour are planning a new holocaust , ( theyd **** it up like everything else if they did ), but that they're inflaming the same prejudices in the same groups which led to the last one.
You say that there's some technical difference between other socialists and Nazis , and there may be, but to all practical purposes it's much the same thing. It's theoretical nonsense born of envy and revenge which can't work and never has worked, but usually results in incrementally more insane and inhuman cruelties until someone puts a stop to it.
The bottom line is that they both disregard the individual human being as anything else but a cog in the machine of an all powerful state which promises a better world but only produces misery, starvation and desolation.
There we are, there's the sensible discussion you invited -perhaps we should have yet another thread about why anyone still thinks socialism might work next time despite the 100% record of failures so far and the millions of human beings it has killed through violence and starvation.

[life on mars]

I thought for a moment there that you were going to post something without any name calling, but you did it right at the end.

All that stuff about Israel is interesting but it should be a separate thread - maybe I'll start one.
It's very unwise to qualify disapproval of racism in the political world, which labour has somewhat done. You are also doing it, which isn't as electorally destructive because we presume that it's your personal opinion. Nonetheless , you're doing them no favours even with this small audience.
I haven't said that Labour are planning a new holocaust , ( theyd **** it up like everything else if they did ), but that they're inflaming the same prejudices in the same groups which led to the last one.
You say that there's some technical difference between other socialists and Nazis , and there may be, but to all practical purposes it's much the same thing. It's theoretical nonsense born of envy and revenge which can't work and never has worked, but usually results in incrementally more insane and inhuman cruelties until someone puts a stop to it.
The bottom line is that they both disregard the individual human being as anything else but a cog in the machine of an all powerful state which promises a better world but only produces misery, starvation and desolation.
There we are, there's the sensible discussion you invited -perhaps we should have yet another thread about why anyone still thinks socialism might work next time despite the 100% record of failures so far and the millions of human beings it has killed through violence and starvation.

Dont be silly soclaism doesn't cause death, only the Tories do, according to JC .

Old Maduro the Venezuelan socialist will explain things better he keeps funeral directors well busy.

[RonnieBird]

https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCNewsni...7Ctwgr%5Etweet



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/l...rvis-0thlclsns

[RonnieBird]

If you listen to the two apologists for inaction on anti semitism here, it's all just nonsense - those Jews making a fuss about nothing or some mad idea I dreamed up on my own to interfere with their vision of a soviet style paradise, but once again a major figure has spoken out and the Times will lead tomorrow on the strong opinions expressed in an article by the Chief Rabbi.
He's a very brave man in my opinion, because he knows perfectly well that if Corbyn were to gain power there could be serious repercussions against him personally.
We must pray that that never happens, but be ready to defend those who would first be singled out.

[the other bob wilson]

Labour keep on insisting there isn't a problem with antiSemitism in the party these days, but it just won't go away - that has to be a damaging intervention by the Chief Rabbi for them. I suspect this and a position on Brexit by its leader that could be called honourable in some respects, but seems impractical to me in the current political situation is costing them this election.

[jon1959]

Labour keep on insisting there isn't a problem with antiSemitism in the party these days, but it just won't go away - that has to be a damaging intervention by the Chief Rabbi for them. I suspect this and a position on Brexit by its leader that could be called honourable in some respects, but seems impractical to me in the current political situation is costing them this election.

I agree with most of that, although Labour do not insist there is no problem. They do (mostly) insist that they are dealing with it through disciplinary action and education, and that other parties have more of a problem but are not doing anything about it or being held to account.

Both anti-semitism and Brexit will hurt Labour electorally. I expect the impact of Corbyn personally taking a neutral stance on a second Brexit referendum will reduce as we get closer to polling day - the bullet has already been fired and he now has his script sorted out - but there will be a steady stream of anti-semitism attacks getting front page coverage up until the end.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I agree with most of that, although Labour do not insist there is no problem. They do (mostly) insist that they are dealing with it through disciplinary action and education, and that other parties have more of a problem but are not doing anything about it or being held to account.

Both anti-semitism and Brexit will hurt Labour electorally. I expect the impact of Corbyn personally taking a neutral stance on a second Brexit referendum will reduce as we get closer to polling day - the bullet has already been fired and he now has his script sorted out - but there will be a steady stream of anti-semitism attacks getting front page coverage up until the end.

Its the right wing media crapping themselves that corbyn is doing well and far better than expected that has provoked this nonsense

Corbyn isn't anti Jew , which is what this stupid pompous rabbi and the Tory times are suggesting , he's anti Zionist and pro Palestinian , like many on the left

The times are shitting themselves that the polls and tightening and this rabbi is more than happy to stir the pot as it suits his agenda of Israel standing alone against the pesky Arabs whilst we steal their land

There are many Jewish anti Zionist labour party members , I tend to listen to them not the right wing press

The conservative party is full of right wing nutters who don't like Jews , let's see the times report on them

[the other bob wilson]

Its the right wing media crapping themselves that corbyn is doing well and far better than expected that has provoked this nonsense

Corbyn isn't anti Jew , which is what this stupid pompous rabbi and the Tory times are suggesting , he's anti Zionist and pro Palestinian , like many on the left

The times are shitting themselves that the polls and tightening and this rabbi is more than happy to stir the pot as it suits his agenda of Israel standing alone against the pesky Arabs whilst we steal their land

There are many Jewish anti Zionist labour party members , I tend to listen to them not the right wing press

The conservative party is full of right wing nutters who don't like Jews , let's see the times report on them

I've just listened to a previously Labour voting leader of the Jewish community being interviewed on Radio 5 and he said that representatives of that community had a meeting with Jeremy Corbyn on 24 April 2018 which went pretty well, but they have heard nothing from him and his party since despite what he said was a commitment to a further meeting within three months - if that is true, then I find it amazing in the current climate.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I agree with most of that, although Labour do not insist there is no problem. They do (mostly) insist that they are dealing with it through disciplinary action and education, and that other parties have more of a problem but are not doing anything about it or being held to account.

Both anti-semitism and Brexit will hurt Labour electorally. I expect the impact of Corbyn personally taking a neutral stance on a second Brexit referendum will reduce as we get closer to polling day - the bullet has already been fired and he now has his script sorted out - but there will be a steady stream of anti-semitism attacks getting front page coverage up until the end.

Its the right wing media crapping themselves that corbyn is doing well and far better than expected that has provoked this nonsense

Corbyn isn't anti Jew , which is what this stupid pompous rabbi and the Tory times are suggesting , he's anti Zionist and pro Palestinian , like many on the left

The times are shitting themselves that the polls and tightening and this rabbi is more than happy to stir the pot as it suits his agenda of Israel standing alone against the pesky Arabs whilst we steal their land

There are many Jewish anti Zionist labour party members , I tend to listen to them not the right wing press

The conservative party is full of right wing nutters who don't like Jews , let's see the times report on them

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I've just listened to a previously Labour voting leader of the Jewish community being interviewed on Radio 5 and he said that representatives of that community had a meeting with Jeremy Corbyn on 24 April 2018 which went pretty well, but they have heard nothing from him and his party since despite what he said was a commitment to a further meeting within three months - if that is true, then I find it amazing in the current climate.

The Tories promised 200000 new homes in the social rented sector in 2017

They have actually built just over 2000

Politics is full of he said , she said , this latest splurge on corbyn from the Tory voting Jewish lobby is blatent electioneering , being pushed by the conservative controlled times and ironically given its support for Hitler , the daily mail

The Jewish population is being used as a political football

Why hasn't there been an outcry about the blatent islamaphobia in the Tory party ?

I tell you why , the Tory press won't cover it

[RonnieBird]

In other parties complaints of racism are taken seriously and acted upon. I posted in this thread about a week back that a candidate for another party was revealed to have sent a racist tweet and suspended by lunchtime.
That's the difference you see.

Jon says that Corbyn has taken a neutral stance on Brexit , but the fact is that he's also taken a neutral stance on anti semitism complaints. That's very worrying when he doesn't take a neutral stance on Palestine, sharing a platform with terrorists who openly celebrate the holocaust and call for the slaughter of every Jewish man, woman and child. He welcomes them to events and calls them "friends".

These are facts.

Perhaps it's a question of ignorance. Maybe some people here are accepting the George Galloway version of lovely reasonable Palestinian groups who are constantly oppressed by Israel and have nowhere to turn. Perhaps they don't know that these people will not accept any civilised negotiations or concessions , insisting upon a total jihad including endless street attacks on civilians and kids and calling for the death of all Jews ?
They do exactly the same sort of attacks as we've seen here and in Europe, but they do them more often and fire Iranian missiles at Israeli schools on a daily basis.
It is quite routine for them to display pictures of Adolf Hitler and swastikas on placards and distribute leaflets in Arabic about
Aushwitz being " the only answer".

Well that's one thing. It's not nice, but when we see Corbyn shaking their hands, calling them " brothers" and "friends" and refusing to condemn such behaviour, what are we to think ?

[RonnieBird]

[jon1959]

I've just listened to a previously Labour voting leader of the Jewish community being interviewed on Radio 5 and he said that representatives of that community had a meeting with Jeremy Corbyn on 24 April 2018 which went pretty well, but they have heard nothing from him and his party since despite what he said was a commitment to a further meeting within three months - if that is true, then I find it amazing in the current climate.

If that is true it is a major mistake by Labour. There needs to be more talking, not less.

I think this fairly recent piece by Peter Hain and Daniel Levy has been linked before, but it is worth a (re)read as an attempt to understand what is going on and suggest a route forward. I don't agree with all of it (some statements don't match my experience) and I doubt there will be the space and goodwill needed to make it happen, but at least it is a thoughtful and comprehensive contribution.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/ope...e-way-forward/

[RonnieBird]

That's a long rambling essay. Lots of words, no action.

Tell me John, what rights do you want for the swastika waving jihadists ? Corbyn's "friends" and "brothers" ?

They have the same rights as anyone else and whenever their territorial demands are met they use the land they're given to launch rockets and as a terrorist base.
They clearly state that they want to kill all Jews - is this a "right" they should have ?

[Eric Cartman]

In other parties complaints of racism are taken seriously and acted upon. I posted in this thread about a week back that a candidate for another party was revealed to have sent a racist tweet and suspended by lunchtime.
That's the difference you see.

The leader of the conservative party referred to Muslim women as looking like letter boxes and has never shown remorse or apologised for that popular racist dog whistle. If Corbyn wrote an article about Jewish people and said 'har har they have big noses don't they?', we would never hear the end of it.

Also you aren't comparing apples with apples, how a party acts towards these incidents during an election campaign is going to be different to how they react at other times.

[RonnieBird]

Very out of context quote from BoJo whilst he was defending the right of Moslem women to wear that stuff, but I'm not here to defend what he might or might not have said.
One thing you can definitely do is tell Jewish jokes - Jewish people do it all the time.
Jewish people sometimes wear a hat called a Kippah, and no one minds when other people call them frisbees, because that's just a bit of humour. Of course , some people manage to use it in a nasty way, ( as has been done on this thread), by calling Jewish people "Kippers" and daubing it on synagogue doors.

That's not the point anyway. Jokes are one thing, calling those who support Hitler and the holocaust " freinds" and " brothers" is something else isn't it ?

The bottom line is that Jewish people - who have some experience - increasingly detect the early signs of a dangerous persecution. It's all very well them denying it, but the plain fact is that people don't believe it. There are just too many examples to ignore it

[Eric Cartman]

Very out of context quote from BoJo whilst he was defending the right of Moslem women to wear that stuff, but I'm not here to defend what he might or might not have said.
One thing you can definitely do is tell Jewish jokes - Jewish people do it all the time.
Jewish people sometimes wear a hat called a Kippah, and no one minds when other people call them frisbees, because that's just a bit of humour. Of course , some people manage to use it in a nasty way, ( as has been done on this thread), by calling Jewish people "Kippers" and daubing it on synagogue doors.

That's not the point anyway. Jokes are one thing, calling those who support Hitler and the holocaust " freinds" and " brothers" is something else isn't it ?

The bottom line is that Jewish people - who have some experience - increasingly detect the early signs of a dangerous persecution. It's all very well them denying it, but the plain fact is that people don't believe it. There are just too many examples to ignore it

You aren't here to defend him but you managed it anyway.

You realise Jewish people aren't naturally different to the rest of us, don't you? They don't have an inbuilt holocaust alarm.

One Jewish guy on the news just described labour as a 'wholly antisemitic party'. Do you think that quote is an exaggeration?

Ultimately, what we have seen is a day devoid of policy discussion. Instead we are focusing on character attacks of little substance from all directions.

[RonnieBird]

No, I don't think it's an exaggeration. In fact Corbyn is just being destroyed by Andrew Neil on the TV and after three requests refuses to apologise for anti semitism in his party.
Although the vast majority of the Labour Party isn't anti Semitic , I think he is honestly - based on his close association with those who openly say they want to kill all Jews and refusal to condemn them. As long as he's calling the shots and refusing to address the issue, the party is therefore in practical terms " wholly anti Semitic" .

My opinion - there are very very many decent people in that party and they should cast this man adrift if he can't convincingly reject anti semitism. Perhaps he got this far in through naivety rather than evil on his part , but I'm afraid it's a taint which cannot be removed at this stage. He is toxic to that party and if he cares about it he should make way for someone who can be trusted

[Heathblue]

No, I don't think it's an exaggeration. In fact Corbyn is just being destroyed by Andrew Neil on the TV and after three requests refuses to apologise for anti semitism in his party.
Although the vast majority of the Labour Party isn't anti Semitic , I think he is honestly - based on his close association with those who openly say they want to kill all Jews and refusal to condemn them. As long as he's calling the shots and refusing to address the issue, the party is therefore in practical terms " wholly anti Semitic" .

My opinion - there are very very many decent people in that party and they should cast this man adrift if he can't convincingly reject anti semitism. Perhaps he got this far in through naivety rather than evil on his part , but I'm afraid it's a taint which cannot be removed at this stage. He is toxic to that party and if he cares about it he should make way for someone who can be trusted

He could have put this to bed tonight, a slight upsurge in "the polls" leading into this, he failed miserably and he will again get hammered in the press for his refusal, Johnson refused the other night, what a pair of clowns to pick from, it's the UK version of Trump and the Hilderbeast.

[Eric Cartman]

No, I don't think it's an exaggeration. In fact Corbyn is just being destroyed by Andrew Neil on the TV and after three requests refuses to apologise for anti semitism in his party.
Although the vast majority of the Labour Party isn't anti Semitic , I think he is honestly - based on his close association with those who openly say they want to kill all Jews and refusal to condemn them. As long as he's calling the shots and refusing to address the issue, the party is therefore in practical terms " wholly anti Semitic" .

My opinion - there are very very many decent people in that party and they should cast this man adrift if he can't convincingly reject anti semitism. Perhaps he got this far in through naivety rather than evil on his part , but I'm afraid it's a taint which cannot be removed at this stage. He is toxic to that party and if he cares about it he should make way for someone who can be trusted

Do I need to tell you what the word 'wholly' means? That was the point of my question about the quote. I respect the views of many Jewish people, not those spouting nonsense like that though. I wouldn't respect it from anybody else and neither would you if you weren't trying to force your point through.

[Eric Cartman]

He could have put this to bed tonight, a slight upsurge in "the polls" leading into this, he failed miserably and he will again get hammered in the press for his refusal, Johnson refused the other night, what a pair of clowns to pick from, it's the UK version of Trump and the Hilderbeast.

In what universe was Corbyn going to have a good night? This was always going to be damage limitation and hope nobody is watching. I just hope Neil can keep up the pressure and even handed across the weak because the rest of them have just as many holes, I think he will because despite his obvious political leanings he relishes the fight.

No doubt though, Corbyn should have just apologised but for some reason they don't, it must be political strategy 101, ever since Clegg did and people made memes and joke songs out of it barely anybody important has every said the s word.

[RonnieBird]

He won't apologise because he's not sorry.
He knows he can't admit how he feels toward Jewish people ,but in his own mad mind it's justified and nothing to aplogise about.

In any case, we'll see how all that plays out for him.