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Thread: Jewish group walks away from Labour

  1. #31

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post

    The clue to your fake position of being reasonable is the use of dehumanising language. It reminds me so much of nazi speeches, trying to sound rational but unable to use derogatory terms for their intended victims.
    What does this mean?

  2. #32

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    I'll take that as a serious question Eric. Two people here are somewhere between denying that anti semitism exists and saying that it's a consequence of Israeli foreign policy rather than plain race hate.
    Now, of course we can critisise Israel like any other country ,( although maybe a more balanced view is called for ), but when people use dehumanising language of the sort which has crept in despite the apparently calm logic they portray, then it's a clue that there's something lurking there.
    This is not just my observation, it's an established clue to closet racists saying one thing but meaning another.

  3. #33
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    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    I'll take that as a serious question Eric. Two people here are somewhere between denying that anti semitism exists and saying that it's a consequence of Israeli foreign policy rather than plain race hate.
    Now, of course we can critisise Israel like any other country ,( although maybe a more balanced view is called for ), but when people use dehumanising language of the sort which has crept in despite the apparently calm logic they portray, then it's a clue that there's something lurking there.
    This is not just my observation, it's an established clue to closet racists saying one thing but meaning another.
    I have not denied that anti-semitism exists. I have stressed in most of my posts that it exists - in the Labour Party and in wider society. It is real and growing in many places.

    I have not said that anti-semitism is a consequence of Israeli foreign policy. Anti-semitism is racism and I condemn it totally, with no excuses.

    However I will not accept that anti-Zionism is anti-semitism. I will not follow your view that critics of that political ideology - many of them Jewish - are anti-semites.

    A lot of the world's most prominent Zionists are not Jewish at all - the likes of Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo are Christian Zionists - fundamentalists who believe that the justification for Israeli settler colonialism is to be found in the Old Testament.

    You do not engage with the arguments against your view but just revert to slander and, stupidity. Nazis were racists - their genocide of European Jews had nothing to do with political differences. White supremacists seeking Uncle Tom figures to support segregation is the exact opposite of anti-Zionists (Jews and non-Jews) fighting against state apartheid policies in Israel. The dehumanising language is coming from you - repeatedly refusing to accept that Jewish people have opinions and interests that are not the same as those of Israel the state. That is just repeating one of the anti-semitic tropes that the recent events in Labour highlighted.

    Do you understand what you are saying in these posts? You seem to be tying yourself in knots, revelling in claiming up is down and left is right. 'It is an established clue....' is the nonsense that comes from someone without a clue and without honesty. I would happily discuss the extent of anti-semitism in the Labour Party, other parties or wider society. I would happily discuss the extent to which some/most Jewish people consider Zionism to be part of their identity and how that sits with support or opposition to Israeli state policy. But none of that is possible with you - you don't care about those questions, or about evidence, or about anything but cheap insults, propaganda and posing as a victim.

  4. #34

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Where was my dehumanising language ? Did I say " your sort " or call anyone a " nasty piece of work" for complaining about anti semitism ?
    You will not accept that anti zionists are anti Semitic ? Well of course you won't !
    Why would an anti Semite hate Israel ? Maybe because they don't like that someone has the military strength to answer a future genocide.
    Are these "anti zionists " rational in their arguments ? Are they proportional ? No, they speak of " wiping Israel off the face of the earth", which would just incidentally kill millions of Jews.
    Are they fair in assessing the clash between terrorist murderers and the only democracy in the region ? No.
    Do they complain when Palestinians fire rockets at Jewish schools ? No.
    Did they complain when Egypt and Jordan simply killed Palestinians to end their violence ? No, they prefer to attack a Jewish country which tries to contain it within laws.

    This is a very dangerous thing you know. We've seen what happens when "radical" politicians gradually start finding reasons to make the Jews into a bogeyman then their followers justify it and try to make it seem okay with false logic.

  5. #35

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Dear RonnieB,

    Genuine question... Do you think Corbyn was being anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist or none of the above when he said "there are about 6 million Jewish people living in America, so as a percentage it’s quite small, but in terms of influence it’s quite big. In terms of money and influence, they are a very powerful lobby. There are other very powerful foreign lobbies in the United States of America, and the Jewish lobby, with its links with the Israeli government, is one of those strong voices"?

  6. #36

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Does anyone think that some of this Labour anti semitism actually deliberate, as a vote grabber aimed at certain cultures / people that loath and hate anything , Israel , Jews and Americans ??

  7. #37

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Does anyone think that some of this Labour anti semitism actually deliberate, as a vote grabber aimed at certain cultures / people that loath and hate anything , Israel , Jews and Americans ??
    Why "Americans"?

  8. #38

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Why "Americans"?
    Jewish Americans especially in New York state and the Eastern Seaboard have huge infrastructures , finances and influence.

    American is seen as a close ally of Jews and Isreal.

  9. #39

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Jewish Americans especially in New York state and the Eastern Seaboard have huge infrastructures , finances and influence.
    Do you honestly believe that?

  10. #40

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Do you honestly believe that?
    Yes

  11. #41

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Dear RonnieB,

    Genuine question... Do you think Corbyn was being anti-Semitic or anti-Zionist or none of the above when he said "there are about 6 million Jewish people living in America, so as a percentage it’s quite small, but in terms of influence it’s quite big. In terms of money and influence, they are a very powerful lobby. There are other very powerful foreign lobbies in the United States of America, and the Jewish lobby, with its links with the Israeli government, is one of those strong voices"?

    Well I'd think it was very typical of his inability / refusal to see Jewish people as full members of a nation.
    You remember that he (in)famously told British Jews that they didn't understand British cultures and values, well in this quote he's describing the American Jewish Lobby as "another FOREIGN lobby" isn't he ?
    Of course, they're Americans who happen to be Jewish, but to him they're Jews so they're foreign in some way. Just the same as when he tells Jews in this country that they don't understand "our" British values.

    He sticks a bit in about apparent links with Israel, but if his apologists here are right, not all Jews are Zionists , yet according to him they're all foreign .

    All joking aside, you can see from his language that however much he tries to claim it's something about Zionism or the country of Israel , it's really not .

    See, what worries me is when instead of saying " oh yeah, actually so and so isn't right - we'd better think about this creeping in" , people start trying to twist the facts and justify it. I'm surprised to be honest that we've seen that happen right here, but we have I'm afraid and it's got to be challenged because it really becomes dangerous if people don't call it out for what it is.

  12. #42

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Yes
    Fair enough. Although, next time you want to condemn the allegations of anti-Semitism within the Labour party, just remember that you admitted to believing the anti-Semitic stereotype of Jews having lots of money and power/influence. Don't go being a hypocrite, now

  13. #43

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    What LOM said is true, but is it a reason to hate Jews if they're successful ?

  14. #44

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    Well I'd think it was very typical of his inability / refusal to see Jewish people as full members of a nation.
    You remember that he (in)famously told British Jews that they didn't understand British cultures and values, well in this quote he's describing the American Jewish Lobby as "another FOREIGN lobby" isn't he ?
    Of course, they're Americans who happen to be Jewish, but to him they're Jews so they're foreign in some way. Just the same as when he tells Jews in this country that they don't understand "our" British values.

    He sticks a bit in about apparent links with Israel, but if his apologists here are right, not all Jews are Zionists , yet according to him they're all foreign .

    All joking aside, you can see from his language that however much he tries to claim it's something about Zionism or the country of Israel , it's really not .

    See, what worries me is when instead of saying " oh yeah, actually so and so isn't right - we'd better think about this creeping in" , people start trying to twist the facts and justify it. I'm surprised to be honest that we've seen that happen right here, but we have I'm afraid and it's got to be challenged because it really becomes dangerous if people don't call it out for what it is.
    Sorry, I've just realised that it was the "great man" Nigel Farage who those quotes are attributed to. They were widely condemned by the Jewish community and by the CAA:

    https://antisemitism.uk/caa-demands-...ican-politics/

    He was also condemned for perpetuating the same tropes that LoM has just done https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/ni...heories-502474

    I'm sure you'll join me in condemning the massive, racist c**t and his role in the rise of anti-Semitism we've been seeing.

  15. #45

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    What LOM said is true, but is it a reason to hate Jews if they're successful ?
    There are plenty of Jewish cab drivers too though.

  16. #46

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Sorry, I've just realised that it was the "great man" Nigel Farage who those quotes are attributed to. They were widely condemned by the Jewish community and by the CAA:

    https://antisemitism.uk/caa-demands-...ican-politics/

    He was also condemned for perpetuating the same tropes that LoM has just done https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/ni...heories-502474

    I'm sure you'll join me in condemning the massive, racist c**t and his role in the rise of anti-Semitism we've been seeing.

    I don't agree that Nigel is anti Semitic, but I'll give it some thought and look into what he said.
    My initial feeling is that he's talking about something else, which is a different subject.

    Look, if some people are doing something wrong , ( and I make no comment either way), they don't get out of it because they're Jewish. That's not the same thing as automatically vilifying people BECAUSE they're Jewish.

    You're right though, that if he's displaying some kind of anti semitism then I'd condemn it completely.

  17. #47

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    I don't agree that Nigel is anti Semitic, but I'll give it some thought and look into what he said.
    My initial feeling is that he's talking about something else, which is a different subject.

    Look, if some people are doing something wrong , ( and I make no comment either way), they don't get out of it because they're Jewish. That's not the same thing as automatically vilifying people BECAUSE they're Jewish.

    You're right though, that if he's displaying some kind of anti semitism then I'd condemn it completely.
    Jewish group walks away from Labour - Labour is anti-Semitic.

    Jewish group calls Nigel Farage's comments anti-Semitic - I'll have to look into it.

  18. #48

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    I'm off to bed now - got an early start tomorrow.

    G'night, RonnieB. Don't go labouring too hard to find a way out of your hole.

  19. #49

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    You remember that he (in)famously told British Jews that they didn't understand British cultures and values
    If you are referring to the quote I think you are then this is a disingenuous representation of what was said.

    You don't have to sensationalise everything, I think we probably all agree Corbyn crossed a line that day.

  20. #50

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    If you are referring to the quote I think you are then this is a disingenuous representation of what was said.

    You don't have to sensationalise everything, I think we probably all agree Corbyn crossed a line that day.

    I heard it once on R4 whilst driving and that was a while back. If I got it wrong I apologise but I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous - that was my recollection. What did he actually say then ?

  21. #51

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Jewish group walks away from Labour - Labour is anti-Semitic.

    Jewish group calls Nigel Farage's comments anti-Semitic - I'll have to look into it.

    No, this thing of using a serious thing like anti semitism for political point scoring is wrong.
    You posted one thing about Nigel Farage and I said I'd look into it, but you can't possibly equate that with voluminous acts and statements over decades by some labour people.

    PLEASE don't use such language as labouring hard or people buried in holes on this subject. I just hope it's not Freudian .

  22. #52

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    What LOM said is true, but is it a reason to hate Jews if they're successful ?
    And there we have it , success, or envy , you add it all up its a dislike of those values , if you look at history certain folk having always been envious of the virtues of sucess , if you consider that people throught out the ages have disliked the Jew for its abiliy to be wealthy or a sucess, through hard work and entrepreneurial skills .

    Isreal is disliked in the region for running a sucessful strong country, where all around it fails.

    The USA has been at the forefront of capitalist growth and strength as a nation .

    All of those traits are indeed disliked and envied by left wing socialists , its not a new phenomenon.

    However to think in 2019 after all the horrendous attrocities the Jew has been subject too, its bewlidering to think a modern society with its so called tolerance and inclusion is still talking about this very matter.

    Even worse a major political party is subject to an investigation by a well respected independent trusted body such as the equality and human rights commission , who don't take on enquiries lightly , is equally bewildering , even its parties deputy has accepted it exists ,
    and has called it out , proves this is not just a few nutters .

    There's a lot of denial going on and it saddens me as a past Labour voter that it exists in any shape or form in a party that I thought was well above that .

    The only other political movement the EHRC have investigated is the BNP ??

  23. #53

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    I heard it once on R4 whilst driving and that was a while back. If I got it wrong I apologise but I certainly wasn't trying to be disingenuous - that was my recollection. What did he actually say then ?
    I am not going to give my own equally wrong version of events.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ts-2013-speech

  24. #54

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Isreal is disliked in the region for running a sucessful strong country, where all around it fails.
    Keep on telling yourself that.

    https://www.un.org/unispal/document/...press-release/

    Some highlights:

    More than 6,000 unarmed demonstrators were shot by military snipers, week after week at the protest sites by the separation fence.
    The investigation covered the period from the start of the protests until 31 December 2018. 189 Palestinians were killed during the demonstrations inside this period. The Commission found that Israeli Security Forces killed 183 of these protesters with live ammunition. Thirty-five of these fatalities were children, while three were clearly marked paramedics, and two were clearly marked journalists.
    Unless undertaken lawfully in self-defence, intentionally shooting a civilian not directly participating in hostilities is a war crime
    The Commission took note of the Israeli claim that the protests by the separation fence masked “terror activities” by Palestinian armed groups. The Commission found however that the demonstrations were civilian in nature, with clearly stated political aims. Despite some acts of significant violence, the Commission found that the demonstrations did not constitute combat or military campaigns.
    The Commission found that some members of the Higher National Committee organising the protests, which includes Hamas representatives, encouraged or defended demonstrators’ use of indiscriminate incendiary kites and balloons, causing fear among civilians and significant damage to property in southern Israel. The Commission concluded that Hamas, as the de facto authority in Gaza, failed to prevent these acts.
    It is still going on although nobody cares anymore - https://mondoweiss.net/2019/10/43-ch...march-in-gaza/

  25. #55

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I am not going to give my own equally wrong version of events.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ts-2013-speech

    Not much difference is there ?
    Point being that he's implying that Jews aren't English - perhaps more correctly revealing his own subconscious attitude towards Jews.
    Look, he's a nutter and an idiot, we know that , and he probably meant no harm, but to me the worrying thing is that some people - even here - want to justify it instead of saying " hey, that's a bit out of order Corby !"
    This is how it can start you see. They're so fanatical about their tribal politics that their defence of their "leader " is more important than rational thinking or human decency , and before we know where we are it's a serious problem.

  26. #56

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    No, this thing of using a serious thing like anti semitism for political point scoring is wrong.
    You posted one thing about Nigel Farage and I said I'd look into it, but you can't possibly equate that with voluminous acts and statements over decades by some labour people.

    PLEASE don't use such language as labouring hard or people buried in holes on this subject. I just hope it's not Freudian .
    Who is "political point scoring"? I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy you're showing. When you thought it was Corbyn who made those comments you had an opinion. When you discovered that it was actually Farage who made them, suddenly it's "I think he's actually talking about something else" and "I'll have to look into what he said". It's not as if Farage doesn't have a long, disgusting history of racist behaviour, is it?

    As for the "language" that I used. Seriously?! You're pretending to be offended by me using a pun on the name of the party that you so greatly oppose to mock you because there's the most tenuous link ever with the word 'labour' and Jews? You're really trying to divert attention away from your massive balls-up aren't you? (Should I not say "balls-up" as Jews are circumcised and the foreskin is located near the testicles?)

    Did you look into Farage's anti-Semitic comments? (Not sure what that would entail). Are the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism wrong about him?

  27. #57

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    And there we have it , success, or envy , you add it all up its a dislike of those values , if you look at history certain folk having always been envious of the virtues of sucess , if you consider that people throught out the ages have disliked the Jew for its abiliy to be wealthy or a sucess, through hard work and entrepreneurial skills .

    Isreal is disliked in the region for running a sucessful strong country, where all around it fails.

    The USA has been at the forefront of capitalist growth and strength as a nation .

    All of those traits are indeed disliked and envied by left wing socialists , its not a new phenomenon.

    However to think in 2019 after all the horrendous attrocities the Jew has been subject too, its bewlidering to think a modern society with its so called tolerance and inclusion is still talking about this very matter.

    Even worse a major political party is subject to an investigation by a well respected independent trusted body such as the equality and human rights commission , who don't take on enquiries lightly , is equally bewildering , even its parties deputy has accepted it exists ,
    and has called it out , proves this is not just a few nutters .

    There's a lot of denial going on and it saddens me as a past Labour voter that it exists in any shape or form in a party that I thought was well above that .

    The only other political movement the EHRC have investigated is the BNP ??
    You've just said "the Jew" an incredible amount of times to describe the Jewish community. Once again, referring to Jews (plural) as "the Jew" is widely regarded to be anti-Semitic. It's how Hitler referred to them to dehumanise them.

    Are you sure that you're not anti-Semitic LoM? You've stated that Jews living in New York have lots of money and influence (what's known as 'Economic Anti-Semitism') and now you're calling the Jewish community "The Jew".

    Maybe the EHRC should investigate you?

  28. #58

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Who is "political point scoring"? I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy you're showing. When you thought it was Corbyn who made those comments you had an opinion. When you discovered that it was actually Farage who made them, suddenly it's "I think he's actually talking about something else" and "I'll have to look into what he said". It's not as if Farage doesn't have a long, disgusting history of racist behaviour, is it?

    As for the "language" that I used. Seriously?! You're pretending to be offended by me using a pun on the name of the party that you so greatly oppose to mock you because there's the most tenuous link ever with the word 'labour' and Jews? You're really trying to divert attention away from your massive balls-up aren't you? (Should I not say "balls-up" as Jews are circumcised and the foreskin is located near the testicles?)

    Did you look into Farage's anti-Semitic comments? (Not sure what that would entail). Are the Campaign Against Anti-Semitism wrong about him?


    I didn't at any point think Corbyn said that. You posted it and it clearly referred to Nigel Farage.
    I said I'll look into it because I want to see who these people are who have objected and why. I'm already aware of the many organisations and individuals who've objected to Corbyn.
    We're on to circumcision now are we ?
    Is this what you know of Jewish people ?
    Again, why should I be surprised that the people here who gang up on minorities to silence opinion are the same ones who are happy to gang up on Jews ?

  29. #59

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    I think the general consensus of the left here is that anti Zionism / anti semitism is okay. If this reflects the attitudes of the left generally then I think people will take this into account in voting during the forthcoming election.
    I know that Rabbis and other Jewish leaders were already warning everyone not to vote labour and I don't blame them on the basis of what we've seen here. What's more significant in numbers is that I don't think the general public will ignore the danger of having an anti Semite running the country.

  30. #60

    Re: Jewish group walks away from Labour

    Quote Originally Posted by RonnieBird View Post
    I think the general consensus of the left here is that anti Zionism / anti semitism is okay. If this reflects the attitudes of the left generally then I think people will take this into account in voting during the forthcoming election.
    I know that Rabbis and other Jewish leaders were already warning everyone not to vote labour and I don't blame them on the basis of what we've seen here. What's more significant in numbers is that I don't think the general public will ignore the danger of having an anti Semite running the country.
    Not all, maybe he is the wrong kind of rabbi...

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/l...green-1.490882

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