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Thread: Genuine Brexit question

  1. #1

    Genuine Brexit question

    I keep hearing how MPs have blocked Brexit and keep voting against it. When did the votes to either block or vote against Brexit happen? I can't remember them.

    I recall Theresa May having a deal that lost by a majority of 149 - 75 Tories voted against it. Had they all supported it we'd be out by now. Most Tories against the deal were either in favour of no-deal or wanted a softer Brexit (the more moderate Tories wanting a softer Brexit or no Brexit have since been sacked by the party). Labour refused to back a deal without certain safeguards and guarantees.

    This whole "if we vote to leave, we can choose the path we take" plan hasn't worked very well. Too many paths. No MPs have voted to stop Brexit, they can't agree on which path it takes. Same with leave voters. Some want no-deal. Some want a Norwegian style deal. Some want a Swiss style deal.

    But leave means leave, whatever that is......

  2. #2

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    I keep hearing how MPs have blocked Brexit and keep voting against it. When did the votes to either block or vote against Brexit happen? I can't remember them.

    I recall Theresa May having a deal that lost by a majority of 149 - 75 Tories voted against it. Had they all supported it we'd be out by now. Most Tories against the deal were either in favour of no-deal or wanted a softer Brexit (the more moderate Tories wanting a softer Brexit or no Brexit have since been sacked by the party). Labour refused to back a deal without certain safeguards and guarantees.

    This whole "if we vote to leave, we can choose the path we take" plan hasn't worked very well. Too many paths. No MPs have voted to stop Brexit, they can't agree on which path it takes. Same with leave voters. Some want no-deal. Some want a Norwegian style deal. Some want a Swiss style deal.

    But leave means leave, whatever that is......
    I presume that's the MP remain tactic , wait for a deal ,debate it , find a fault ,vote against it evertime creating the endless loop situation.

    Think May's deal was voted on four times .

    Then Boris got a revised May deal with differences to the backstop ,that was voted down .

    We are working on the pretence most MP 's say they accept the vote but want to leave with a deal .

    On the last May deal vote it lost by 45 votes , moderate Labour MP'S , In remain seats could have secured the deal .

    It was defeated now we have Boris and a potential worse scenario than Mays soft Brexit option.

    Or was this second referendum Election the plan all along for the oppostion or tye the government.

    I'm sure heavy politics is in play.

    I do wonder though if Boris does get a majoity how some of those moderate MP's will feel if we do have a real leave means leave moment??

  3. #3

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    I presume that's the MP remain tactic , wait for a deal ,debate it , find a fault ,vote against it evertime creating the endless loop situation.

    Think May's deal was voted on four times .

    Then Boris got a revised May deal with differences to the backstop ,that was voted down .

    We are working on the pretence most MP 's say they accept the vote but want to leave with a deal .

    On the last May deal vote it lost by 45 votes , moderate Labour MP'S , In remain seats could have secured the deal .

    It was defeated now we have Boris and a potential worse scenario than Mays soft Brexit option.

    Or was this second referendum Election the plan all along for the oppostion or tye the government.

    I'm sure heavy politics is in play.

    I do wonder though if Boris does get a majoity how some of those moderate MP's will feel if we do have a real leave means leave moment??


    In what universe was May's 'deal':

    a) soft brexit?
    b) manifestly different in 'strength' than Boris' withdrawal agreement?

    One had a whole UK backstop, the other has a NI only backstop.

    The intention for the future in the political declaration was broadly similar and hard, no single market, no customs union.

  4. #4

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    I think the problem is this Eric. Neither May's deal nor BoJo's deal is really Brexit in the proper sense, but it's obvious that there's enough wilful saboutage within the Palace of Westminster that it's the best we can get at the moment.
    At least it contains a declaration that we're leaving and enacts article 50, so if we establish that much, we can go much further in the future.
    With the EU completely off the menu more people will grow discontented with the limitations it imposes upon them and ties can be reduced and cut in time.
    Don't forget that it includes a negotiation period and if we haven't agreed with them after that we can leave with no deal, which is by far the best option for Britain

  5. #5

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post
    I keep hearing how MPs have blocked Brexit and keep voting against it. When did the votes to either block or vote against Brexit happen? I can't remember them.

    I recall Theresa May having a deal that lost by a majority of 149 - 75 Tories voted against it. Had they all supported it we'd be out by now. Most Tories against the deal were either in favour of no-deal or wanted a softer Brexit (the more moderate Tories wanting a softer Brexit or no Brexit have since been sacked by the party). Labour refused to back a deal without certain safeguards and guarantees.

    This whole "if we vote to leave, we can choose the path we take" plan hasn't worked very well. Too many paths. No MPs have voted to stop Brexit, they can't agree on which path it takes. Same with leave voters. Some want no-deal. Some want a Norwegian style deal. Some want a Swiss style deal.

    But leave means leave, whatever that is......
    Let's not forget either that Johnson's deal won the backing of the Commons and then he decided to call a General Eelction.

  6. #6

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    A genuine brexit answer.

    You want Brexit, Vote Tory
    You don't want Brexit, Vote liberal.
    You believe in an illusion of choice, Vote PUB X

  7. #7

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by Nelsonca61 View Post
    A genuine brexit answer.

    You want Brexit, Vote Tory
    You don't want Brexit, Vote liberal.
    You believe in an illusion of choice, Vote PUB X
    Nail on the head , no more fence sitting voters, make a choice your second referendum has arrived in a proxy form on the 12th .

    Choose a side .

  8. #8

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Nail on the head , no more fence sitting voters, make a choice your second referendum has arrived in a proxy form on the 12th .

    Choose a side .
    Pub

  9. #9

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Let's not forget either that Johnson's deal won the backing of the Commons and then he decided to call a General Eelction.
    While his bill was agreed in principle it would have taken weeks or months to have got it through with all the amendments that would have been raised. And some of those if passed could have altered the bill drastically.

    Don't think he had much.choice but to call the election.

  10. #10

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    While his bill was agreed in principle it would have taken weeks or months to have got it through with all the amendments that would have been raised. And some of those if passed could have altered the bill drastically.

    Don't think he had much.choice but to call the election.
    Your spot on and lets be honest nothing was ever going to be agreed however palatable or agreeable it was, they just used any excuse to stop or delay it along with Europe and Tusk ,house of cards at its best.

  11. #11

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    While his bill was agreed in principle it would have taken weeks or months to have got it through with all the amendments that would have been raised. And some of those if passed could have altered the bill drastically.

    Don't think he had much.choice but to call the election.
    Funnily enough that's exactly what he said too.

  12. #12

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by Elwood Blues View Post
    While his bill was agreed in principle it would have taken weeks or months to have got it through with all the amendments that would have been raised. And some of those if passed could have altered the bill drastically.

    Don't think he had much.choice but to call the election.
    I don't see how anyone can say that for certain - to use a familiar phrase of his, he wants to have his cake and eat it.

  13. #13

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Funnily enough that's exactly what he said too.
    Doesn't Flobbergob Johnson appreciate the basics of democracy in that it is perfectly acceptable for Parliament to vote on amendments to a bill? This is just a classic case of throwing his toys out of the pram.

  14. #14

    Re: Genuine Brexit question

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Funnily enough that's exactly what he said too.
    And an element of truth

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