Fake Welsh - many of you

[trampie09]

No tract of the world belongs to any tribe of people who migrated from elsewhere. Red lines on maps are man-made and we are all mongrels. The Celts emanated from mainland Europe just as the Angles, Saxons, Danes, Normans, Jutes, Hugenots did (and I must be far from alone in finding out from a recent DNA test that I have many of those components).
Nationalism usually involves its proponents projecting a particular snapshot in time and which is often idealised. The average farm labourer through time had more in common with his peers in other states, statelets, principalities and empires than his overlords who imposed their own flags, standards and tithes on them.

It is a huge pity that Welsh culture was suppressed in the past but its history now and I do think that the Scots do emphasise the future of their country than the Welsh do. It seems to me that many of the latter seem to dwell on Anti-Englishness instead. Re-iterating endlessly the 25% English population in Wales serves little purpose at a time when we live in a multi-ethnic society.
(I hope to go to Argentina next year and it's not without irony that there are both Welsh and Spanish speakers in a land that was once the domain of so-called native people who migrated from Asia.)

I'm all for appreciating and promoting Welsh culture and I appreciate how Welsh-speakers (who I admire enormously) can be so defensive - but I think that some of them do their cause a disservice by being so selective, skewed and parochial. In my humble opinion, it would be a better course of action to project positivity than a chip on the shoulder.

I should add that something that I call 'Zulu' syndrome amuses me. Some Welsh people idealising facets of Welsh culture whilst forgetting that the Welsh soldiers concerned were wiping out Africans in the name of the British Empire.

I didn't think cultural or ethnic Welsh nationalism is a thing [there is a big difference between civic and cultural nationalism], the Welsh are the longest surviving indigenous group in Wales, so no red lines drawn at a particular point in time, the criticism of the Welsh nationalist party Plaid is that they welcome immigrants and will allow anyone and everyone in to Wales if they had power [clearly that cant be true but that is what people think] which is the opposite to the English nationalist party which is the Conservative party who are known as the nasty party.

[splott parker]

What an exquisite goal by Tomlin ,what a comeback, reminded me of the old Warnock come backs.

I'm Welsh first and a very proud Brit, think it comes from my grandparents , some fought in two world wars others were blitzed out of London.

Half were Welsh the other Londerners all proudly British.

Around the world Britishness is treasured.

As a Welsh country I've seen it grow from old steel and coal days into a modern vibrant country , I guess thats down to the people of Wales responding to change and the investment of Westminster into Wales , I don't think we could have changed easily just relying on self goverment or independence.

Yes it could be better, however that can be said of most things in life as we always crave more , its easy to criticise , not so easy to fix.

If that makes me fake Welsh so be it, i genreally dislike nationalist and sectarianism.

My old man fought in the Second World War, he was at Dunkirk (one of his corny jokes was “I was at Dunkirk when the first shot was fired................I was at Cardiff General when the second bugger went off”), then shipped off to Burma for 3/4 years as one of Viscount Slim’s forgotten army. Didn’t hear him say that he fought for Britain though, he always said he fought for the Allies, he’d seen in the early days of the conflict what the French were going through and couldn’t escape from and that the war was as much for them as people at home. The eventual uniting of much of Europe was seen as a marvellous thing by him. He was Welsh & proud of it but after what he’d witnessed in Europe & the Far East he didn’t have much time for nationalism, he was more a man of the world, had he been alive now Brexit would have baffled him after his battles years ago for unity & peace.

[life on mars]

Swedish great grandfather, born in England married to English lady, apologies but I'll be cheering on the Welsh team June 2020 from the comfort of my arm chair. Great comeback yesterday
👍

And me 👍🍻

[cyril evans awaydays]

My old man fought in the Second World War, he was at Dunkirk (one of his corny jokes was “I was at Dunkirk when the first shot was fired................I was at Cardiff General when the second bugger went off”), then shipped off to Burma for 3/4 years as one of Viscount Slim’s forgotten army. Didn’t hear him say that he fought for Britain though, he always said he fought for the Allies, he’d seen in the early days of the conflict what the French were going through and couldn’t escape from and that the war was as much for them as people at home. The eventual uniting of much of Europe was seen as a marvellous thing by him. He was Welsh & proud of it but after what he’d witnessed in Europe & the Far East he didn’t have much time for nationalism, he was more a man of the world, had he been alive now Brexit would have baffled him after his battles years ago for unity & peace.

Well Said

[cardiff55]

100% nationality is an accident of birth, anybody that has a connection to Wales including living here that regards themselves as Welsh is Welsh as far as I am concerned.
The Bluebirds have as much right to play in what is now described as the English pyramid as any team from the other side of Offa's Dyke.

It used to be called the English league a long time ago, and they invited, yes invited, Welsh Clubs to join. Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Aberdare , Merthyr and Wrexham were elected to the League as the League wanted to popularise the game in the great rugby stronghold in South Wales. There was also the fact that employers, chapels etc were very anti professional sport, forcing their employees to play only amateur sport, eg rugby union. English fans seem to forget that the Welsh clubs were invited to join. Prior to being in the League a lot of South Wales clubs were in the Southern League too, plus Barry, Cwm, Maerdy, Pontypridd and others.

Cardiff were seen to be a club of such hugh potential they were immediately elected to Division 2, and got promoted in the first season. Within 6 years Cardiff had been runners-up, been in two FA Cup Finals, one won one lost, another FA Cup semi final and won the Charity Shield. It was our heyday.

The problem would be what would happened to us if we did have Welsh Independence. Effectively, I believe, we are an English club based in Wales and we should affiliate to the FA not the FAW. That would go down well. And if it all went wrong we could relocate to somewhere like Milton Keynes!!!

Wales does not have the same history as Scotland or Ireland. We we conquered and thus became a Principality , whereas as Scotland and England united to become the UK. Going forward I can see Ireland re=united as the Northern Irish have now been shafted by Brexit deals, and Scotland want out too. It's happen in other parts of Europe, the former Yugoslavia and other places around the world. And we now have a Conservative England, a Labour Wales, an SNP Scotland and a Northern Ireland with a heavy Sinn Fein representation. It's going to be interesting.

[Trigger]

Have some English family, see myself as bristish as much as Welsh and I see no problem with that.

The irony is you will be kissing the badge at the euros when some English born lad sticks a goal away for us.

[trampie09]

My old man fought in the Second World War, he was at Dunkirk (one of his corny jokes was “I was at Dunkirk when the first shot was fired................I was at Cardiff General when the second bugger went off”), then shipped off to Burma for 3/4 years as one of Viscount Slim’s forgotten army. Didn’t hear him say that he fought for Britain though, he always said he fought for the Allies, he’d seen in the early days of the conflict what the French were going through and couldn’t escape from and that the war was as much for them as people at home. The eventual uniting of much of Europe was seen as a marvellous thing by him. He was Welsh & proud of it but after what he’d witnessed in Europe & the Far East he didn’t have much time for nationalism, he was more a man of the world, had he been alive now Brexit would have baffled him after his battles years ago for unity & peace.

Great post, lovely story.
The Britain back then is not the Britain of today, Churchill was wartime leader yet the first election after the war Labour won a landslide and created the NHS etc etc as Eddie Butler said in his recent independence speech at a rally in Merthyr ''The United Kingdom that made my parents proud to call themselves British no longer exists.''

[trampie09]

It used to be called the English league a long time ago, and they invited, yes invited, Welsh Clubs to join. Cardiff, Swansea, Newport, Aberdare , Merthyr and Wrexham were elected to the League as the League wanted to popularise the game in the great rugby stronghold in South Wales. There was also the fact that employers, chapels etc were very anti professional sport, forcing their employees to play only amateur sport, eg rugby union. English fans seem to forget that the Welsh clubs were invited to join. Prior to being in the League a lot of South Wales clubs were in the Southern League too, plus Barry, Cwm, Maerdy, Pontypridd and others.

Cardiff were seen to be a club of such hugh potential they were immediately elected to Division 2, and got promoted in the first season. Within 6 years Cardiff had been runners-up, been in two FA Cup Finals, one won one lost, another FA Cup semi final and won the Charity Shield. It was our heyday.

The problem would be what would happened to us if we did have Welsh Independence. Effectively, I believe, we are an English club based in Wales and we should affiliate to the FA not the FAW. That would go down well. And if it all went wrong we could relocate to somewhere like Milton Keynes!!!

Wales does not have the same history as Scotland or Ireland. We we conquered and thus became a Principality , whereas as Scotland and England united to become the UK. Going forward I can see Ireland re=united as the Northern Irish have now been shafted by Brexit deals, and Scotland want out too. It's happen in other parts of Europe, the former Yugoslavia and other places around the world. And we now have a Conservative England, a Labour Wales, an SNP Scotland and a Northern Ireland with a heavy Sinn Fein representation. It's going to be interesting.

But it wasn't the English league it was the football league and remained as such for well over 100 years.

[splott parker]

But it wasn't the English league it was the football league and remained as such for well over 100 years.

Very protective of emphasising that they were the original and only organisation at first. Hence the FA Cup, not the English Cup & The Football League not the English League. I think I have to correct myself there, it was originally The FA Challenge Cup, the winners in 1872, The Wanderers didn’t need to play in any rounds at all the next season. There was a ‘final’ before the Final, the winners of the ‘final’ then challenged the holders, The Wanderers’ in the Final. Wanderers won again. The official name is still The FA Challenge Cup. Don’t suppose it could have been the English Cup with Queens Park playing in it.

[Louth]

"Around the world Britishness is treasured." What planet are you living on?

Scores of countries remember "Britishness" pretty well. Engineered famines, slaughter of locals as you eyed their raw minerals etc. etc.

People point the finger at Americans lack of historical knowledge. The Brits have a rather one sided view of their own history.

Britishness my ass, there's no such thing.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

I didn't think cultural or ethnic Welsh nationalism is a thing [there is a big difference between civic and cultural nationalism], the Welsh are the longest surviving indigenous group in Wales, so no red lines drawn at a particular point in time, the criticism of the Welsh nationalist party Plaid is that they welcome immigrants and will allow anyone and everyone in to Wales if they had power [clearly that cant be true but that is what people think] which is the opposite to the English nationalist party which is the Conservative party who are known as the nasty party.

However, the population of Wales at any given juncture were a mixture of peoples and always have been. Tribes from the year 'dot' travelled to other parts of the globe, married, interbred, took captives, exchanged women and even raped, of course. The Roman army could not possibly have consisted primarily of Romans and armies in history often had among their fold mercenaries from other cultures and those who were 'press-ganged'. When one tribe or empire took over a tract of land the locals were often absorbed into the culture rather than driven out.
I would love to see the DNA results of some of the purists on here.........

[trampie09]

However, the population of Wales at any given juncture were a mixture of peoples and always have been. Tribes from the year 'dot' travelled to other parts of the globe, married, interbred, took captives, exchanged women and even raped, of course. The Roman army could not possibly have consisted primarily of Romans and armies in history often had among their fold mercenaries from other cultures and those who were 'press-ganged'. When one tribe or empire took over a tract of land the locals were often absorbed into the culture rather than driven out.
I would love to see the DNA results of some of the purists on here.........

That's debatable with Wales even Britannia all the way up as far as the central belt of Scotland, prior to the Romans Wales [even Britannia] might have been just Celtic tribes, the Germanic tribes were late to the party coming here as the Romans were leaving.
They used to say the Irish are Scots, the Scots are Irish, the Welsh are English and the English are foreigners due to the movement of the peoples of these islands, but Wales is not the best example for you to use as the Welsh are not colonisers or invaders.
If you had said about South Africa with the whites landing on the coast and moving up and the blacks coming down from central Africa at the same time [ive heard it said, don't know if its true] and both claiming the land or the Arabs, Jews and Christians in Palestine or something like that but Wales is not a good example because no groups have a claim on Wales but the Welsh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm
As regards DNA, the above research says the Welsh are the "true" Britons and talks about Offas Dyke being more of a barrier to Anglo Saxon DNA than the North Sea was.

[Taunton Blue Genie]

That's debatable with Wales even Britannia all the way up as far as the central belt of Scotland, prior to the Romans Wales [even Britannia] might have been just Celtic tribes, the Germanic tribes were late to the party coming here as the Romans were leaving.
They used to say the Irish are Scots, the Scots are Irish, the Welsh are English and the English are foreigners due to the movement of the peoples of these islands, but Wales is not the best example for you to use as the Welsh are not colonisers or invaders.
If you had said about South Africa with the whites landing on the coast and moving up and the blacks coming down from central Africa at the same time [ive heard it said, don't know if its true] and both claiming the land or the Arabs, Jews and Christians in Palestine or something like that but Wales is not a good example because no groups have a claim on Wales but the Welsh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm
As regards DNA, the above research says the Welsh are the "true" Britons and talks about Offas Dyke being more of a barrier to Anglo Saxon DNA than the North Sea was.

I am familiar with that BBC article but I think the situation is more nuanced regarding my point about mongrelisation.
"Today, few Britons have ancestors from just one local region of the United Kingdom" https://www.nature.com/news/british-...cestry-1.17136

[trampie09]

As someone that has done a bit of travelling I would say Wales is the greatest country in the World, I feel very privileged to live in Wales.

[Lord Dargavel]

As someone that has done a bit of travelling I would say Wales is the greatest country in the World, I feel very privileged to live in Wales.

Are you really as stupid as you appear to be or is this an attention grab?

[trampie09]

Are you really as stupid as you appear to be or is this an attention grab?

Oh were do you thing the greatest country in the World is ?

[Eric the Half a Bee]

Oh were do you thing the greatest country in the World is ?

I think lots of people claim their country is the best. Of course either one group of people from one country are right or no-one is right.

[nugent]

Come on gents.

Does it really matter where anyone is from.
Everyone should be treated with lots and lots of love.

Its xmas mun

[G rangetown Blue]

Have some English family, see myself as bristish as much as Welsh and I see no problem with that.

The irony is you will be kissing the badge at the euros when some English born lad sticks a goal away for us.

Not me....

All the English rejects can fcuk right off .

[G rangetown Blue]

As someone that has done a bit of travelling I would say Wales is the greatest country in the World, I feel very privileged to live in Wales.

Wales is cool...I’m so proud to be Welsh....but some of the people here are thick as sh1t, unfortunately.

[NYCBlue]

No, go on, get him started !

[B. Oddie]

The vast majority of people living in the valleys are highly likely to have had English grand-parents, great grand-parents etc.

Those living close to docks in South Wales are equally as likely to have Irish in them.

Genealogy is really interesting to an inquisitive mind and highlights how superficial racism is.