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Thread: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

  1. #31

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    I'm not referring to any particular party in my post. Apart from the MEPs themselves there are the unelected commissioners, of which the Kinnocks are an example, where the expression "gravy train" hardly begins to describe the excesses. Take a read of this article: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/k...rain-xcxbdkx6r

    Note: there are 28 commissioners!

    In the EU parliament/commission there are 32,000 civil servants and 751 MEP’s. It costs 1.8 billion euros to run, equivalent to 2.3 million euros per MEP.

    12 times a year the EU parliament moves to Strasbourg at a cost of 200 million euros. It involves moving then providing accommodation for 4000 people with all the associated documentation/files from Brussels just for 4 days, 12 times a year.

    This is why I want out of the EU - the obscene extravagance of it all!
    Good post.

  2. #32

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    If less than 67% voted either way then the status quo would stand i.e. we would remain in the EU. That is whole point - there has to be a significant proportion of voters, hence strictly nlt 67%. That would be the rule and hence forget about any clamour either way with anything less.
    I agree it should have been set there, but had 60% voted to Leave but nothing was done, the last three years would have been even worse than it has been.

  3. #33

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Good job you're not referring to me then as I am none of those things!

    You and I should meet face-to-face for a chat sometime rather than get embroiled in this keyboard warrior stuff which is in danger of descending into the sort of vitriolic nonsense frequently seen elsewhere on this board. Do you get to most home games at the CCFC?
    The local chess club do as much good work as Christians for the less well off

    You are a tory christian are you not ?

    Yes it's a Syrian family to be relocated to the vale of glamorgan

    So god has made you moral ? This is fantasy island stuff

  4. #34

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    I'm not referring to any particular party in my post. Apart from the MEPs themselves there are the unelected commissioners, of which the Kinnocks are an example, where the expression "gravy train" hardly begins to describe the excesses. Take a read of this article: https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/k...rain-xcxbdkx6r

    Note: there are 28 commissioners!

    In the EU parliament/commission there are 32,000 civil servants and 751 MEP’s. It costs 1.8 billion euros to run, equivalent to 2.3 million euros per MEP.

    12 times a year the EU parliament moves to Strasbourg at a cost of 200 million euros. It involves moving then providing accommodation for 4000 people with all the associated documentation/files from Brussels just for 4 days, 12 times a year.

    This is why I want out of the EU - the obscene extravagance of it all!

    Oscar Wilde once called a cynic someone who knew the cost of everything and the value of nothing. I worked with and usually against the EU Commission for a good proportion of my career. I found them competent and coherent but equally risk averse, arrogant and at times spendthrift in the manner you describe.

    But when making decisions, particularly major investment ones you have to look at the benefits as well as the costs. The government's own economic analysis placed in the House of Commons library after Johnson's withdrawal deal estimates that over a 15 year period the UK'S GDP will be between 2.1 and 3.9% pa smaller than if we retained membership.

    The upper limit is based on low to no net inward migration from the EU of a type that a goodly proportion of leave voters would likely be comfortable with. It also factors in the financial settlement and the cessation of our net contributions. It was the least worst option on the table and if as intimated we plan to diverge away from EU standards and towards a basic free trade agreement these figures could be higher.

    Using your metric that equates to an economic benefit loss of between 65 and 110 million euros per annum for each MEP. In a business case it membership on economic grounds regardless of a proportion of EU profligacy would be a no brainer.

    We have to recognise that other factors were and still are at play for many people that drove the result and leave we will on 31st January for better or worse.

  5. #35

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Sorry, I was only talking about the House of Commons. The House of Lords should be scrapped and replaced with an elected assembly but with proper control of the purse strings.
    That's what I am driving at. Where is the line between recognising the benefits and wishing to reform from within and wanting to leave? The lord's isn't a new thing, why aren't you advocating leaving the UK?

    The next decade will be about denying that analysis like this (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.blo...it-for-the-u-k) is true. I based my vote on 2 things

    1) this premise, that we would need only see a small economic hit for the net contribution to be dwarfed by lost growth.

    2) that being able to move almost completely freely around loads of varied and interesting land is life-altering. That right will be handed out based on income/wealth now.

  6. #36

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    I agree it should have been set there, but had 60% voted to Leave but nothing was done, the last three years would have been even worse than it has been.
    Why? I voted leave but like everyone else I would have known about the 67% rule before I voted, so no argument surely. If the vote was 66.9% then I would ask for a recount!

  7. #37

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    That's what I am driving at. Where is the line between recognising the benefits and wishing to reform from within and wanting to leave? The lord's isn't a new thing, why aren't you advocating leaving the UK?

    The next decade will be about denying that analysis like this (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.blo...it-for-the-u-k) is true. I based my vote on 2 things

    1) this premise, that we would need only see a small economic hit for the net contribution to be dwarfed by lost growth.

    2) that being able to move almost completely freely around loads of varied and interesting land is life-altering. That right will be handed out based on income/wealth now.
    These sound like Project Fear arguments to me. Let's wait and see.

  8. #38

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    These sound like Project Fear arguments to me. Let's wait and see.
    There's no saving you buddy...

  9. #39

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    The local chess club do as much good work as Christians for the less well off

    You are a tory christian are you not ?

    Yes it's a Syrian family to be relocated to the vale of glamorgan

    So god has made you moral ? This is fantasy island stuff
    Why this obsession with good works? I have never claimed that Christians have a monopoly on good works. Indeed in Ephesians 2:8-9 it says: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

    If you recall you taunted me with your comment about love thy neighbour unless he is an immigrant, as if I am some rabid far-right racist. My example of bringing the Syrian refugee family was simply in response to that comment, not some additional bragging rights about good works. Incidentally our community sponsorship group consists of people of faith and of no faith, I just happened to have had the motivation to kick it off.

    Why do you also seem to characterise a Christian as some kind of racist Brexit/Tory-voting toff? It makes me wonder how many Christians you know personally. For the record I would describe myself as apolitical in as much as I have no political affiliations. I suppose if you wanted to classify me I would be leaning towards socialist but my ideal political party would be a kind of pick and mix of policies from all parties but firmly based on justice and equality for all.

    I don’t think God has made me a moral person but he brought me to the realisation that I have fallen way short of the person that Jesus expects me to be. Hence I aim to be the best person I can be (but will never be “perfect”) for him and to be his hands and feet wherever I find myself. “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me” (Matthew 25:40).

    If you would like to meet to have a chat and a drink with me, the offer is there. I do not get to many games any more but I do have a Flexiticket so I get down to the CCS when I can. I used one last weekend to watch the Swansea game – not a classic unfortunately!

  10. #40

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    These sound like Project Fear arguments to me. Let's wait and see.
    Yes we are leaving so we will now see if the prophets of doom were right , as a once famous poster back in the day " lets wait and see " and I cant wait for wait and see moment , there such fun.

  11. #41

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Why this obsession with good works? I have never claimed that Christians have a monopoly on good works. Indeed in Ephesians 2:8-9 it says: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

    If you recall you taunted me with your comment about love thy neighbour unless he is an immigrant, as if I am some rabid far-right racist. My example of bringing the Syrian refugee family was simply in response to that comment, not some additional bragging rights about good works. Incidentally our community sponsorship group consists of people of faith and of no faith, I just happened to have had the motivation to kick it off.

    Why do you also seem to characterise a Christian as some kind of racist Brexit/Tory-voting toff? It makes me wonder how many Christians you know personally. For the record I would describe myself as apolitical in as much as I have no political affiliations. I suppose if you wanted to classify me I would be leaning towards socialist but my ideal political party would be a kind of pick and mix of policies from all parties but firmly based on justice and equality for all.

    I don’t think God has made me a moral person but he brought me to the realisation that I have fallen way short of the person that Jesus expects me to be. Hence I aim to be the best person I can be (but will never be “perfect”) for him and to be his hands and feet wherever I find myself. “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me” (Matthew 25:40).

    If you would like to meet to have a chat and a drink with me, the offer is there. I do not get to many games any more but I do have a Flexiticket so I get down to the CCS when I can. I used one last weekend to watch the Swansea game – not a classic unfortunately!
    Your right .

    I know some wonderful Christians who work tirelessly in the community helping the vulnerable , a couple of which maybe Tory voters actually ,it doesn't make them a racist Brexit / Tory-voting Toff's , it makes them better than the folk who do nothing .

  12. #42

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Why? I voted leave but like everyone else I would have known about the 67% rule before I voted, so no argument surely. If the vote was 66.9% then I would ask for a recount!
    You think the likes of Farage and Johnson (who used the campaign as a springboard) would just shrug their shoulders? Would the Mail and Express back down?

    Absolutely not, the rhetoric (which in June 2016 was very much aimed at immigration) would have increased. There would be outrage that 50% more people voted to leave than stay but the Political Elite are thwarting the Will Of The People.

  13. #43

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    You think the likes of Farage and Johnson (who used the campaign as a springboard) would just shrug their shoulders? Would the Mail and Express back down?

    Absolutely not, the rhetoric (which in June 2016 was very much aimed at immigration) would have increased. There would be outrage that 50% more people voted to leave than stay but the Political Elite are thwarting the Will Of The People.
    Why should I care what Farage, Johnson, the Daily Mail or the Daily Express think/say? What is so difficult to understand - there are no shades of grey here, 67% means 67%, full stop.

  14. #44

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Why should I care what Farage, Johnson, the Daily Mail or the Daily Express think/say? What is so difficult to understand - there are no shades of grey here, 67% means 67%, full stop.
    I haven't said you cared what they think. I don't care what they think. I'm asking what you think they would do.

    The idea that they would say "oh well, we needed 67% but only got 60%" and lay down their arms is crazy. They'd double their efforts.

  15. #45

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Your right .

    I know some wonderful Christians who work tirelessly in the community helping the vulnerable , a couple of which maybe Tory voters actually ,it doesn't make them a racist Brexit / Tory-voting Toff's , it makes them better than the folk who do nothing .
    If you are near Cardiff maybe you could introduce some of them to this Sludge chap. He doesn't seem keen to meet me for a chat, unless in fairness he hasn't seen my last two posts yet. Perhaps he is nervous that I will not fit with his perceived stereotype Christian?

  16. #46

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Why this obsession with good works? I have never claimed that Christians have a monopoly on good works. Indeed in Ephesians 2:8-9 it says: “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.”

    If you recall you taunted me with your comment about love thy neighbour unless he is an immigrant, as if I am some rabid far-right racist. My example of bringing the Syrian refugee family was simply in response to that comment, not some additional bragging rights about good works. Incidentally our community sponsorship group consists of people of faith and of no faith, I just happened to have had the motivation to kick it off.

    Why do you also seem to characterise a Christian as some kind of racist Brexit/Tory-voting toff? It makes me wonder how many Christians you know personally. For the record I would describe myself as apolitical in as much as I have no political affiliations. I suppose if you wanted to classify me I would be leaning towards socialist but my ideal political party would be a kind of pick and mix of policies from all parties but firmly based on justice and equality for all.

    I don’t think God has made me a moral person but he brought me to the realisation that I have fallen way short of the person that Jesus expects me to be. Hence I aim to be the best person I can be (but will never be “perfect”) for him and to be his hands and feet wherever I find myself. “Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me” (Matthew 25:40).

    If you would like to meet to have a chat and a drink with me, the offer is there. I do not get to many games any more but I do have a Flexiticket so I get down to the CCS when I can. I used one last weekend to watch the Swansea game – not a classic unfortunately!
    Now you are quoting bits out of a book written by people many years after this chap snuffed it , saying it's his very words ......and you live your life by this nonsense ?

    And you voted brexit ?

    Those two reasons are enough in themselves to turn down the offer of a chat

    You are quite clearly a christian whose morals end at the point of being part of a multi cultural , multi national europe

    In other words you've got morals , in your case christian morals but they only exist to the point that you like them

    Those are not the kind of morals that stand up to scrutiny , brexit is going to stuff many people up the arse and ruin this country for generations ......and you voted for it ........so good luck to your grandchildren and pray for them , they are going to need it

  17. #47

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by life on mars View Post
    Your right .

    I know some wonderful Christians who work tirelessly in the community helping the vulnerable , a couple of which maybe Tory voters actually ,it doesn't make them a racist Brexit / Tory-voting Toff's , it makes them better than the folk who do nothing .
    I do loads to help people and give loads to charity , dont need some moral sense of duty forced on me by something that doesn't exist making me do it

  18. #48

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    These sound like Project Fear arguments to me. Let's wait and see.
    Do you deny climate change as well ?

  19. #49

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    There's no saving you buddy...
    Hes in complete denial

  20. #50

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    I haven't said you cared what they think. I don't care what they think. I'm asking what you think they would do.

    The idea that they would say "oh well, we needed 67% but only got 60%" and lay down their arms is crazy. They'd double their efforts.
    They would double their efforts to do what? They lost. End of story. Maybe come back in 20 years and test the waters again. Once in a lifetime vote and all that...!

  21. #51

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Do you deny climate change as well ?
    Not at all, it's been "bleedin obvious" for many years. I am doing my bit but I won't go into detail because I don't want to be dragged into a "I'm doing more than you" discussion along the lines of "who does more for charity" which you seem to favour.

    I'm sorry you have turned down my offer of a chat. It would have been interesting but as you have closed your mind it would be pointless. The fact that you have accepted the notion that all the New Testament was written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus and therefore is a work of fiction, then yes, it would be pointless.

    I wish you good luck with your Syrian refugee family. I don't know to what extent you will be involved but I have found with our Syrian family it has been quite a mix of emotions. It was hard work in the beginning but after the 18 months or so that they have been here they have become friends and to the children we are their surrogate grandparents! I know what we are doing is a drop in the ocean but we do what we can do.

  22. #52

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    They would double their efforts to do what? They lost. End of story. Maybe come back in 20 years and test the waters again. Once in a lifetime vote and all that...!
    Double their efforts to leave the EU, obviously.

    You think Farage would return under his rock? Johnson would let Cameron get on with being PM? The ERG Tories would give it up? The Mail and Express would change their tune?

    60% of the country supporting them, and it would just be switched off like that. Sure.

  23. #53

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by lardy View Post
    Double their efforts to leave the EU, obviously.

    You think Farage would return under his rock? Johnson would let Cameron get on with being PM? The ERG Tories would give it up? The Mail and Express would change their tune?

    60% of the country supporting them, and it would just be switched off like that. Sure.
    Didn't Farage categorically say that he wouldn't accept 'remain' as an outcome if leave had lost the vote?

  24. #54
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    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
    Didn't Farage categorically say that he wouldn't accept 'remain' as an outcome if leave had lost the vote?
    Yes he did.

  25. #55

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by Gofer Blue View Post
    Not at all, it's been "bleedin obvious" for many years. I am doing my bit but I won't go into detail because I don't want to be dragged into a "I'm doing more than you" discussion along the lines of "who does more for charity" which you seem to favour.

    I'm sorry you have turned down my offer of a chat. It would have been interesting but as you have closed your mind it would be pointless. The fact that you have accepted the notion that all the New Testament was written hundreds of years after the death of Jesus and therefore is a work of fiction, then yes, it would be pointless.

    I wish you good luck with your Syrian refugee family. I don't know to what extent you will be involved but I have found with our Syrian family it has been quite a mix of emotions. It was hard work in the beginning but after the 18 months or so that they have been here they have become friends and to the children we are their surrogate grandparents! I know what we are doing is a drop in the ocean but we do what we can do.
    My mind is very open but not to fantasy and fairy tales

    Good luck with your charity work , keep it up and I will continue with mine

    Take care of yourself

  26. #56

    Re: Is Clive being racist calling folk racist

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    My mind is very open but not to fantasy and fairy tales

    Good luck with your charity work , keep it up and I will continue with mine

    Take care of yourself
    I‘m sorry you feel that way but there it is. I would have liked the opportunity to debate with you!

    It would be good if you could update us from time to time on the progress of your Syrian refugee family. I don’t know how the private messaging system works but I would be really interested to know how it’s going if you wanted to use that. I trust you will find it to be a rewarding experience as I have done, despite lots of trials and tribulations along the way! There are several other groups in/around Cardiff I believe so there should be plenty of help/advice to be had.

    Take care.

    Gofer.

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