Will Vaulks

[NYCBlue]

What's the average age of the under 23s? Are many of them are over 20? Or is it just a bunch of teenagers?

[the other bob wilson]

I'm still not entirely sure why the authorities persist with the U23 or who it benefits and agree the old reserve fixtures should return, although with 18 man squads going to first team games and the amount of fixtures at that level we'd probably see a U23esque team turn out for the 2nds anyway. The old format was occasionally something of a shambles with teams not being able to fulfil fixtures and some clubs foregoing a reserve team in some years. (I think I'm remembering that right).

For all that, I don't think the system is an excuse for our lack of 1st team local talent in the last ten years. Bellamy reckoned there were capable players so why the consistent failure?

I can understand why some would be surprised by my comment, but yOu and Tuerto get the point .Under 23 football is something that I feel Neil Warnock is right about - it's a waste of time. The authorities have cocked things up by, first, introducing under 21 football, realising it wasn't working, but, instead of going the whole hog and reintroducing something like the old Football Combination, came up with the dog's breakfast that is under 23 football.

I can't talk about other sides, but I've seen players who looked more ready for the first team in our youth side than they did in the Under 23 team (Tommy O'Sullivan, Josh Yorwerth, Cameron Coxe and Sion Spence all being examples that I can come up with without thinking too long about it).

Neil Warnock used the Under 23 side to introduce players too old for youth team football (the McKays being a notorious example), but, in my opinion, Ciaron Brown is the only one who may make a first team player and he is not showing any signs of improvement when restricted to a diet of Under 23 football.

Brentford and Huddersfield took the step of closing their Academies and stop "competing" at under 23 level. Although, its woeful recent record when it comes to producing first team players makes dumping the Academy a tempting idea, I would keep it, but would have no problem with us abandoning our Under 23 team.

[dembethewarrior]

Rumours of interest in Vaulks across the bridge.

And Stoke.

[dembethewarrior]

Everyone thought he was a tough tackling, box to box midfielder. In every game I've seen him play he constantly gives the ball away and is completely bypassed when we are out of possession. I think they just decided he's not up to it.

Minus the tacklinf for me, so not everyone, I thought he was box to box with a decent shot.

[LeningradCowboy]

Looking at our midfield at times this season, I've thought they were crying out for someone who could do the same sort of job that Bowen did for the under 18s, Patten and Pinchard are good all rounders who can play in a variety of positions and when I saw Bolger (who seems to have been injured for much of this season) playing back in August and September I thought he was someone who could play for the first team by the end of the season.

My point is more that at other clubs facing the likelihood of a few weeks at the end of the season with nothing to play for, I feel the conversation about who could replace a player about to be sold would include the question "do we have any youngsters coming through who could come in?" - the likelihood is that we could find out without important league points being lost come April and May and I'm sure there would be some blooding of youngsters at most other clubs under the same circumstances.

Unless you're talking about a Ramsey, there has to be a gamble involved when giving a youngster a debut, but we often did it two or three times a season until the thinking that our young player of the year has to about twenty five took a hold - it doesn't help either to have fans writing Cameron Coxe off completely after two appearances.

There isn't any point 'blooding youngsters' if they're not ready to make the step up. We're not going to help their development by asking them to play at a level way beyond their current ability. If any of them were out on loan in League One or League Two, then I could see the argument for recalling them and giving them a go in the first team, but none of them have progressed beyond playing for the Under 23s.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

There isn't any point 'blooding youngsters' if they're not ready to make the step up. We're not going to help their development by asking them to play at a level way beyond their current ability. If any of them were out on loan in League One or League Two, then I could see the argument for recalling them and giving them a go in the first team, but none of them have progressed beyond playing for the Under 23s.

Coxe is 21, Brown is 22. It's beginning to get to now or never for them both. It's perhaps too early for a 16 year old like Mayembe but we either play some of these young players or cut them loose.

[LeningradCowboy]

Coxe is 21, Brown is 22. It's beginning to get to now or never for them both. It's perhaps too early for a 16 year old like Mayembe but we either play some of these young players or cut them loose.

Harris has said that the gap between the Under 23s and the first team is too big and we need players to go out on loan to develop. Brown has gone to Livingston until the end of the season, but if we can't find a club in League One or League Two willing to give game time to Coxe then you have to question what the next step is for him. Apparently, Exeter were looking at him in the summer and they didn't think he was good enough defensively.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Harris has said that the gap between the Under 23s and the first team is too big and we need players to go out on loan to develop. Brown has gone to Livingston until the end of the season, but if we can't find a club in League One or League Two willing to give game time to Coxe then you have to question what the next step is for him. Apparently, Exeter were looking at him in the summer and they didn't think he was good enough defensively.

That’s pretty damning re Coxe, although given his defending vs Carlisle you can see why they think that. Could be a case for Coxe to learn the hard way now though and play at Championship level week in week out. I don’t think him playing at 21/22 in the lower leagues will be that beneficial.

Brown is out of contract in the summer, isn’t he? I think this will be another group of players we’ve lost out on and the club need to do work to ensure that they don’t waste talented kids in the u18s etc in the coming years.

[LeningradCowboy]

That’s pretty damning re Coxe, although given his defending vs Carlisle you can see why they think that. Could be a case for Coxe to learn the hard way now though and play at Championship level week in week out. I don’t think him playing at 21/22 in the lower leagues will be that beneficial.

Brown is out of contract in the summer, isn’t he? I think this will be another group of players we’ve lost out on and the club need to do work to ensure that they don’t waste talented kids in the u18s etc in the coming years.

Why wouldn't Coxe benefit by playing in the lower leagues? It's a higher standard than he's currently playing at and he's clearly not ready for the Championship. There is a chance he could improve rapidly if we give him a chance in the first team, but there is also a chance that he gets horribly exposed and his development suffers accordingly.

[the other bob wilson]

There are a few things here that don't make sense to me. Firstly, is this a historically very strong City squad? I think you only have to look at the league table to say that the answer to that is no - if you needed further evidence of that, all you'd have to do is read this board for five minutes!

On the other hand, we have a Youth team which won their league last year and a successful Wales Under 19 squad which includes five City players who are regularly chosen in it. Even when we were producing Ramsey's, Gunter's, Ledley's, Collins' etc. our youth side didn't tend to be as good as that or have as much representation in Wales age group teams.

So, putting that all together, can I ask what it is about City senior sides in the past ten or so years that has suddenly turned them into areas where it is considered too much of a risk to throw an untried youngster in for a league debut in the same way they were for the first ninety years of its Football League existence (even during times when they didn't automatically follow up a promotion to the top flight with a relegation)?

Some will no doubt answer that the youngsters aren't good enough these days. In many cases, this is said without having ever seen the player in question in action, or, as in the case of Cameron Coxe, having decided he is not up to the job based on a couple of cup appearances for what was nowhere near the sort of side he would come into in a league game.

We all watch the first team play this season and endlessly pick apart the performances of those who are selected nearly every week. We do this with good cause most of the time, because they have not been good enough. Going back to Coxe, he made mistakes against Carlisle, but I didn't see anything as bad from him as what Joe Bennett came up with when Swansea scored the only goal seen in our games with them this season.

I mention Bennett there, but there are others who have made awful defensive errors on a consistent basis this season and yet all of our youngsters are automatically dismissed as not being ready for first team football - it's hardly as if they are trying to break into the Liverpool team!

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Why wouldn't Coxe benefit by playing in the lower leagues? It's a higher standard than he's currently playing at and he's clearly not ready for the Championship. There is a chance he could improve rapidly if we give him a chance in the first team, but there is also a chance that he gets horribly exposed and his development suffers accordingly.

If Exeter don't think he can defend, then he could be playing at a Morecambe etc. I think we can afford to carry him but I don't think he's going to kick on at the age of 21 if he's so far out of his depth now. I wouldn't play him in the cup as I think we've actually got a chance of a run but the league games are basically a free hit. If he stinks the place out vs WBA and/or Reading then loan him out, if he does OK, let's see what happens.

Why he didn't go out on loan at all last season, God only knows. You might know this though (or Bob). I thought we had to have at least one home grown player in the squad. Usually that's Ralls but Coxe wasn't involved a few times this season when Ralls was injured, and I'm assuming he was only on the bench under Warnock so that we got round that rule.

[the other bob wilson]

If Exeter don't think he can defend, then he could be playing at a Morecambe etc. I think we can afford to carry him but I don't think he's going to kick on at the age of 21 if he's so far out of his depth now. I wouldn't play him in the cup as I think we've actually got a chance of a run but the league games are basically a free hit. If he stinks the place out vs WBA and/or Reading then loan him out, if he does OK, let's see what happens.

Why he didn't go out on loan at all last season, God only knows. You might know this though (or Bob). I thought we had to have at least one home grown player in the squad. Usually that's Ralls but Coxe wasn't involved a few times this season when Ralls was injured, and I'm assuming he was only on the bench under Warnock so that we got round that rule.

I'm pretty sure we get around that because Jazz Richards was at our Academy for a while before he joined the jacks.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

I'm pretty sure we get around that because Jazz Richards was at our Academy for a while before he joined the jacks.

Ah, you must be right. I just assumed he wasn't there long enough to qualify.

[Tuerto]

There isn't any point 'blooding youngsters' if they're not ready to make the step up. We're not going to help their development by asking them to play at a level way beyond their current ability. If any of them were out on loan in League One or League Two, then I could see the argument for recalling them and giving them a go in the first team, but none of them have progressed beyond playing for the Under 23s.

I agree. The harsh reality is that if these young players aren't getting a sniff around the first team and lower league clubs aren't wanting them on loan then they're probably not good enough. In the majority of cases football clubs get it right, there's obviously the odd exception but generally they can see enough in training and development games in respect to making a decision on their future. Sometimes some of these young players aren't even near being good enough, if they are and they have the right attitude then they'll make a living out of the game somewhere.

It's a bit to simple to say that because we're not going down or looking at promotion we should be sticking these players in so that we can take a look at them, they have to be close enough to being at the level where they can contribute at a first team level, playing first team football is a serious business, the club can't just throw players in on the hope that they develop into something that they probably haven't shown up to now.

A young prospect has to be pretty special in order to play pro football consistently. Believe it or not, the majority of our current squad were ahead of their peers in terms of ability and character when they were younger and that's why they've got to where they are.

[surge]

Is my memory correct in thinking that the season we had JFL/Sinclair/Fowler etc. we won away at Norwich with either Darcy Blake replacing Chris Gunter or vice versa at half-time? In terms of specifically talent, those are both fine Championship defenders. Adam Matthews is on the opposite end of the scale of one who had a stinker of a game to end his chances here, but despite this has shown himself to be a sold championship player ever since. I don't think anyone is asking the club to put them in above their current ability but to remember that we were a bit more patient when we were short of money and allow younger players to develop rather than doubting their ability after two cup games where 99% of the team looked below average. It stinks that Jazz Richards', based on him being here aged 13-15, is being used as our "youth development player" in starting line-up each week.

[Bluebirdman Of Alcathays]

Nice to get an empirical perspective and of course it might be just they're not good enough but what seems odd to me is that someone like Cameron Coxe (and there have been others) are touted as good prospects and taken on pre-season tours and included in cup squads even when a club lower down the pyramid are not interested in him because he's deemed to be not good enough at a vital aspect of his position.

Are we waiting for something to click into place or are we just keeping lads here "just in case"? It seems like that would be unfair to them if they're not good enough. Is it that he's not a bad student but we have bad teachers? (I don't know - they could be excellent coaches doing their best but the talent isn't there only that takes us back to my previous point).

[Tuerto]

Is my memory correct in thinking that the season we had JFL/Sinclair/Fowler etc. we won away at Norwich with either Darcy Blake replacing Chris Gunter or vice versa at half-time? In terms of specifically talent, those are both fine Championship defenders. Adam Matthews is on the opposite end of the scale of one who had a stinker of a game to end his chances here, but despite this has shown himself to be a sold championship player ever since. I don't think anyone is asking the club to put them in above their current ability but to remember that we were a bit more patient when we were short of money and allow younger players to develop rather than doubting their ability after two cup games where 99% of the team looked below average. It stinks that Jazz Richards', based on him being here aged 13-15, is being used as our "youth development player" in starting line-up each week.

If these players were good enough, wouldn't it be in the clubs interest to play them? They'd be cheap and a ready replacement with no concerns over bedding in, and if they continued to progress then the club may make a hefty profit on the sale of the player. The only thing stopping these players getting games at first team level is either the manager not trusting young players however good they are or they're not good enough.

[surge]

If these players were good enough, wouldn't it be in the clubs interest to play them? They'd be cheap and a ready replacement with no concerns over bedding in, and if they continued to progress then the club may make a hefty profit on the sale of the player. The only thing stopping these players getting games at first team level is either the manager not trusting young players however good they are or they're not good enough.

But they're not always good enough. Darcy Blake or Chris Gunter in that Norwich game were pulled off at half-time and would probably have been away from first team for months if looking at it under current viewpoint, but we were so poor back then that we persisted and we ended up with 3 million pounds and some regrets of a young man who had his mind moreso on monster munch than football. Why would a new manager risk his reputation on a youth player who will be so inconsistent?

To answer another point about why no bites from lower league clubs: arguably relevant for the summer window but we're in the winter one now. If I'm a lower league club pushing for promotion do I want to bring in an inexperienced youngster? If I'm near relegation places do I want to? If I'm midtable do I want to be spending the money on something so short term?

[dembethewarrior]

If these players were good enough, wouldn't it be in the clubs interest to play them? They'd be cheap and a ready replacement with no concerns over bedding in, and if they continued to progress then the club may make a hefty profit on the sale of the player. The only thing stopping these players getting games at first team level is either the manager not trusting young players however good they are or they're not good enough.

Sancho 10 goals 10 assist's at Dortmund, probably not getting that chance at Man City.
He had experienced players ahead of him and wasn't going to immediately force his way in or get a chance, at a lower level it's the same here,pressure on to win games, they could well not be good enough but they need a run of games to prove it either way.

[Tuerto]

Sancho 10 goals 10 assist's at Dortmund, probably not getting that chance at Man City.
He had experienced players ahead of him and wasn't going to immediately force his way in or get a chance, at a lower level it's the same here,pressure on to win games, they could well not be good enough but they need a run of games to prove it either way.

I don't think that they deserve a run of games if their levels in training or u23 games isn't sufficient enough to warrant a first team place. It simply doesn't work that way.

[dembethewarrior]

I don't think that they deserve a run of games if their levels in training or u23 games isn't sufficient enough to warrant a first team place. It simply doesn't work that way.

I basically said we'll never know how good (or bad) they are unless they get a run.

I get your point, I simply get it.

I just gave my POV.

[Tuerto]

I basically said we'll never know how good (or bad) they are unless they get a run.

I get your point, I simply get it.

I just gave my POV.

Obviously, i just get the impression that some fans seem to automatically think that just because we have these players available to us then they should automatically be given a chance at first team level, like it's some kind of natural process. The club gives them contracts on the basis that they could develop into something worthwhile, some do, most don't, although it seems that as a club we're pretty spectacular at not producing home grown footballers.

[Rock_Flock_of_Five]

Obviously, i just get the impression that some fans seem to automatically think that just because we have these players available to us then they should automatically be given a chance at first team level, like it's some kind of natural process. The club gives them contracts on the basis that they could develop into something worthwhile, some do, most don't, although it seems that as a club we're pretty spectacular at not producing home grown footballers.

Good post.