Reply With QuoteThe Germans introduced a new style of football that dominated all others. Liverpool and Manchester City are a good example of this, while the the other Big 6 clubs are struggling to catch up.
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I’ve heard many times from pundits, fans etc that we inevitably had to move away from that style of play.
I’ve also heard the same saying that this time of ‘dinosaur’ football has no place in the modern game.
I do admit, you are penalised more these days for being physically stronger (yesterday an example) but why can’t it work anymore? Honest question
The Germans introduced a new style of football that dominated all others. Liverpool and Manchester City are a good example of this, while the the other Big 6 clubs are struggling to catch up.
It worked for us just 2 years ago.
If you have the right group of players, who buy into it then there isn't a reason why any style of play works.
Ultimately its the players you have, 99% of clubs are average or fail at whatever style they play.
The new style due is 2.3.3.2.
For those brave enough to deploy it .
There is no right or wrong way to play football, just many different ways to do it.
Chess is the same. There are strategies that have been around for 500 years that are still relevant and effective now. Strategies, are only as good as the person implementing them.
Warnock must have been sh*t then, he had a winning formula and he blew itOriginally Posted by B. Oddie
For a while UK clubs refused to play anything but 4-4-2 and then this switched to pundits refusing to support 4-4-2 in any circumstance but both were ridiculous ideas. Dinosaur football definitely has a place in the game, and can work brilliantly, but you have to be smarter about when you use it (see how Man City were the team that made most fouls last year) and definitely have capability to be more flexible than Warnock was.
You've been reading the Times again. 😀
It may work at Ipswich.
How does it work? 2 center backs, 3 defensive midfielders, 3 attacking midfielders and 2 up front? Are there wing backs or wingers?
Can you cite any examples?
It's a good question.
My feeling is Warnockball is effective when you're in a jam and have a limited budget... It relies heavily on team spirit, togetherness and a huge work ethic. Certainly Warnocks best attributes
However, in my opinion, it is not sustainable for a number of reasons.
1) other teams playing styles evolve and Warnockball is easier to counter when you have quality and can keep possession
2) Warnockball is only effective when you have clinical players who can finish because, with such a low percentage possession, you will always have fewer chances .. look at this season.. take out some flair and the whole system crumbles
3) the workrate and fitness of players for Warnockball is essential...chasing and defending for long periods will eventually catch up with players.. I think warnockball results in more injuries and fatique
4) finally... What talented young players, their parents and agents wants to play in a Warnockball system.. Warnock never liked playing youngsters and if they did get a chance the system meant they hardly touched the ball... How can young players develop and thrive under those circumstances?
When Warnock took over we were in the shit and Warnockball helped us out of it and in fact done more than that and got us a promotion.. but it was never going to keep us there.
Point 2 is massive here. I mentioned recently that we've largely relied on scrappy goals, set pieces or worldies. This season the spectacular goals have dried up.
I don't agree that we had less chances per game as that was not always the case. We used to create chances with fewer touches of the ball than any other sides.
Leicester won the league with a long ball game, though much more refined than Warnockball. They scored lots through set pieces but had Vardy, Mahrez and Kante. We didn't have a decent striker and Harry Arter.
Warnockball worked two seasons ago, so I think it would be wrong to say that it cannot work now, but, looking at it entirely from a Cardiff City point of view, I believe the mistake our manager at the time made was that he didn't develop it any way - in fact, in his latter days he appeared to want to regress it to it's most basic, and boring, format.
It would be wrong to say he didn't sign better footballers after we got promoted, Camarasa, Murphy and Decordova-Reid were all a step up from what we had in terms of footballing ability, as was, to a smaller degree, Arter, but, just as with Lee Tomlin, Warnock did not seem to fully trust at least two of those and so there was a tendency to go back to his, much loved, "bread and butter" players.
Where Warnock really lost it though for me was after we got relegated because the players we signed in the summer so obviously appeared to be a downgrade from what we had the last time we were in the Championship and this despite having been given a budget with which he could have easily have signed better quality players, but, instead, he seemed to want to go for the biggest, most static, options he could come up with - it looked baffling at the time and it turned out to be just that in practice.
None of this means that Warnockball no longer works, it just proves that the man who put this squad together brought in players who were archetypal Warnock footballers in most respects, but, for reasons I'll never understand, he barely seemed to consider pace, athleticism and nimbleness when signing them.
We are also seeing more and more teams implementing the use of data into their strategies.
There is data our there that can tell you things like long throws are better than short, short goal kicks are better than long.
Crossing is often a worse option than pulling the ball back when out wide. Shooting from bad positions is getting less frequent. And plenty of others like that.
As these things gain traction amongst teams they are able to form better strategies.
That isn't to say hoofing it upto a big lump doesn't have it's place, just that more and more of the teams not doing that are doing something that is data driven to be more effective.
Look at these charts from the NBA that shows how data has changed their game.
IMG_20190510_163852.jpg
Things hadn't changed much for decades, until people started looking at the data, and now everyone has made adjustments to the way they play.
And the teams who were slow in adapting suffered as a result.
The tactical styles of Pep and Klopp are also starting to trickle down, making the long ball game obsolete as the statistics are against it.
It does work.
It depends on what you think success looks like. It limits time on the ball for players so you are never going to see the best players playing it as they can be more effective and accurate keeping the ball.
You would probably never seen a big club play it as I'm sure it's not what the world's best players want to do and have higher expectations.
Its not going to be trained at any youth level so won't be the normal.
I think it would work but we haven't been performing well. We haven't played well and defensively we have been all over the shop.
There's also a stigma attached to it. It's not football in purest form so people don't like it
Rightly or wrongly, I think of it as being a cowardly way to play football as it's so dependent on opposition mistakes and seems to be based on the notion that you're scared of having the ball because of what might go wrong when you do, rather than wanting to have it so you can use your ability to create goals.
In addition, I think it aims to force mistakes in the final third by unsettling defenders. How often would a defence clear it a certain distance straight to a City player and, instead of looking to hold onto possession, we'd hack it aimlessly forward, often on the volley or by head. The only point to it was to see if a defender could be caught out.
Isn’t it basically playing the numbers game - throw enough poop and some will stick...?
Tackle. Hoof. Jump. Repeat.
That would have made a brilliant t-shirt!!
CIty t-shirt.jpg
I can assure you that if 'Tackle - Hoof - Jump - Repeat' really worked, then coaches such as Klopp and Pep would be using it instead of this new fangled German high pressing possession based quick on the counter crap.
I think this is even better
TEE.jpg
Fantastic work in progress!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49371002
Both managers mastering the quick fouls inside the opposition's half. Classic Warnock is seen as a side ready to engage in rough play and in the right circumstances, used intelligently, that clearly has a role to play still as demonstrated by Pep and Klopp encouraging their teams to make small fouls early after losing the ball.
I think this is the key point.
Here are the 10 outfield player who made the most league appearances for us in 2017/18:
Hoilett
Bamba
Bennett
Morrison
Ralls
Ecuele Manga
Mendez-Laing
Zohore
Peltier
Paterson
Ecuele Manga and Zohore were better players in 2017/18 than their replacements are now. Hoilett, Bamba, Bennett and Morrison were all better players in 2017/18 than they are now. It's not really surprising that inferior players produce inferior results.
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