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Thread: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

  1. #61

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wales-Bales View Post
    Establishment didn't want Ed, establishment didn't get Ed.
    Yeah, that must be it.

    Can't be anything to do with incompetence whatsoever.

    The irony is I've little doubt Labour would have won that election under David. Still, unions eh?

  2. #62

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Years of strangling the NHS of funding ......who of course are now Angels.....years of cuts to social care .....cuts to public services, cuts to social services , the police

    Massive rise in food bank use

    Disgraceful attacks on those reliant on the benefits system

    All under the tories


    Making this country even less well prepared for the hard times


    Well , we are going to face a major recession following this crisis , we are also going to need thousands of immigrants to care for the sick and the old


    Thank god we have a right wing government that is going to rip up its welfare reforms and look after those in need

    Thank god we are in europe to attract migrants to the low paid jobs that need doing like working in care homes , cleaning the hospitals etc

    Oh hold on a minute .......

  3. #63
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    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by tell it like it is View Post
    Yeah, that must be it.

    Can't be anything to do with incompetence whatsoever.

    The irony is I've little doubt Labour would have won that election under David. Still, unions eh?

    If I remember rightly most (if not all) unions consulted their affiliated members to decide which candidate to back. Maybe a few relied on a delegate conference.

    Trades union members paying a Labour affiliation fee as part of their subs were and are part of the Labour movement and should be entitled to have a say. The electoral college formula has changed - as has the balance between MPs, individual members and affiliated members (and now registered supporters) but the principle is similar and sound.

    The way you describe the process a group of 'union bosses' hid away in a smoke filled room and stitched up the leadership election. That didn't happen - and nothing like that has happened in UK Labour politics for a generation or more.

  4. #64

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by tell it like it is View Post
    Yeah, that must be it.

    Can't be anything to do with incompetence whatsoever.

    The irony is I've little doubt Labour would have won that election under David. Still, unions eh?
    I thought ed was hopeless , david Miliband would have won us the election even if he was tainted by his association with the war monger

  5. #65

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    If I remember rightly most (if not all) unions consulted their affiliated members to decide which candidate to back. Maybe a few relied on a delegate conference.

    Trades union members paying a Labour affiliation fee as part of their subs were and are part of the Labour movement and should be entitled to have a say. The electoral college formula has changed - as has the balance between MPs, individual members and affiliated members (and now registered supporters) but the principle is similar and sound.

    The way you describe the process a group of 'union bosses' hid away in a smoke filled room and stitched up the leadership election. That didn't happen - and nothing like that has happened in UK Labour politics for a generation or more.
    Well, I'm sure Labour would like to portray that but it seems highly interesting that David was well ahead - well ahead in votes from MPs and party members. Union votes however reflected the total opposite.

    Given Red Len won his last election when virtually all union members refused to vote tends to indicate union votes had undue effect.

  6. #66

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I thought ed was hopeless , david Miliband would have won us the election even if he was tainted by his association with the war monger
    David Milliband at least comes across as statemanlike. Ed couldn't even eat a bacon sandwich properly.

  7. #67

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    100%, the government and the voting public will have forgotten all of this in 6 months.
    Either forgotten or remembered very differently.

  8. #68
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    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCBlue View Post
    It's up from 43 to 49%. Which is worrying.
    On the handling of the Corona virus he's on 60%, while the fake news media are on 44%

  9. #69

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by BLUETIT View Post
    Would they have put the right shoes on the right feet

    Uncle Jeremy would have insisted on a referendum on self isolation and wiped half the country out

  10. #70

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Powis blue View Post
    Uncle Jeremy would have insisted on a referendum on self isolation and wiped half the country out
    He'd have invited coronavirus to HoC for a tour and a nice cup of tea because after all, everything can be solved via dialogue - though of course, he'd only speak to the virus and not to people fighting the virus.

  11. #71

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    There are countries with left and right wing Governments which are being hit very hard by the virus - it does not recognise different political philosophies. Yes, there are different nuances involved which you would think have an effect on things like healthcare, but, speaking as a Labour voter, how much difference would there really be now if we had that party in power? Spain has a Government, admittedly it only came to power in January, led by a socialist workers party, but if Johnson and co are, rightly in my view, being criticised for wasting a couple of months opportunity to plan better for what was coming, then the same can be applied in Spain - that's just poor decision making, not the wrong political conviction.

  12. #72

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    So Johnson et al are rightly being criticised in your view on what evidence?

    Do you have anything indicating they have gone against the evidence of the CMO, for example?

  13. #73

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by tell it like it is View Post
    So Johnson et al are rightly being criticised in your view on what evidence?

    Do you have anything indicating they have gone against the evidence of the CMO, for example?
    Well if you're trying to argue that going with the herd mentality approach for a while and then doing a complete about face was all part of some masterplan, then good luck on that. Also, it's clearly counter productive to have people who may already have had and recovered from the virus sat at home because someone where they live may have it. The means to test more people and in greater numbers quicker and more efficiently was paramount surely, but,instead we took the decision only to test those with the worst symptoms - as I say, poor decision making as opposed to flawed political allegiance.

  14. #74

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tuerto View Post
    Funny! A man who wanted to invest heavily in Health (There's an idea) Public Transport, Workers rights, Contracts and pay (Alot of people are very concerned about this at the moment) Would have prefered to have talked rather that attacked and maimed (foreign policy) Cared for the vulnerable and increased services to those who needed it the most. Ring any bells lads and lasses? If that's 'Mad Leftie) then bring it on. The self Employed and those in jobs without contracts working for shithouses who don't care if their workforce ends up in extreme poverty are feeling the brunt of Tory policy that has allowed businesses to use their workforce like pit ponies. It's happening right now, Peoples misery due to this virus is being made worse by historic Tory policy.

    People who voted for a Tory government are going to see in real time what they signed up to, that's the poorest and most vulnerable suffering even more. Well done. It's a bit like asking a stranger to kick you in the bollocks then complaining because it hurts.
    Excellent post.

  15. #75

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by NYCBlue View Post
    Because enough people are easily persuaded to vote against their own interests. There would never be a Tory government otherwise.
    It's like that cartoon that was doing the rounds before the election where there was two foxes reading a newspaper with the headline "Tories to bring back fox hunting" and one fox says to the other. "I'll vote for him because I don't like the other fella" or words to that effect.

  16. #76

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    There are countries with left and right wing Governments which are being hit very hard by the virus - it does not recognise different political philosophies. Yes, there are different nuances involved which you would think have an effect on things like healthcare, but, speaking as a Labour voter, how much difference would there really be now if we had that party in power? Spain has a Government, admittedly it only came to power in January, led by a socialist workers party, but if Johnson and co are, rightly in my view, being criticised for wasting a couple of months opportunity to plan better for what was coming, then the same can be applied in Spain - that's just poor decision making, not the wrong political conviction.
    While recognising no amount of funding would have prepared us, wouldn't we have been better prepared for this without 10 years of looking to reduce NHS capacity either through austerity or, at least in the short-term, Brexit? Part of the pre-election headlines Nicky Morgan admitting that current running of NHS would see 18,500 nurses leave over 10 year period. That may just be extending what was happening beforehand, and complicated by NHS being run by different parties around UK but the graphs chosen seem to suggest much greater investment beforehand. Why not join the EU scheme to bulk buy ventilators though?

    Boris Johnson with aid of Dominc Cummings is not your usual center-right government. It's not like Theresa May was differing rather it's someone who had a desire to shake up politics and, reportedly, lead to Dominc Cummings saying “herd immunity, protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad.” That's a story from the The Times.

  17. #77

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by tell it like it is View Post
    Yeah, that must be it.

    Can't be anything to do with incompetence whatsoever.

    The irony is I've little doubt Labour would have won that election under David. Still, unions eh?
    Why would labour have won that election under David?

  18. #78

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    While recognising no amount of funding would have prepared us, wouldn't we have been better prepared for this without 10 years of looking to reduce NHS capacity either through austerity or, at least in the short-term, Brexit? Part of the pre-election headlines Nicky Morgan admitting that current running of NHS would see 18,500 nurses leave over 10 year period. That may just be extending what was happening beforehand, and complicated by NHS being run by different parties around UK but the graphs chosen seem to suggest much greater investment beforehand. Why not join the EU scheme to bulk buy ventilators though?

    Boris Johnson with aid of Dominc Cummings is not your usual center-right government. It's not like Theresa May was differing rather it's someone who had a desire to shake up politics and, reportedly, lead to Dominc Cummings saying “herd immunity, protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad.” That's a story from the The Times.
    He's in the unenviable position of either having to protect the super rich or the vulnerable. Poor Boris.

  19. #79

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    The UK officially downgraded the COVID-19 threat last Thursday - but very few people seem to know that.

    That isn't surprising as the decision received very little publicity, and if it had it would have made the government restrictions imposed since then much harder to justify. We have something of a Twilight Zone situation in Britain now with coppers throughout the UK trying, albeit half-heartedly, to enforce social distancing rules, while their colleagues in the Met Police in the nation's capital city, whose job it is to disperse gatherings, singularly fail to do so, or even attempt to.

    Here's scenes from the London underground this morning - https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/112586...erground-busy/

    The .gov guidance issued last week is here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/high-con...us-of-covid-19 and also pasted beneath.

    Status of COVID-19

    As of 19 March 2020, COVID-19 is no longer considered to be a high consequence infectious diseases (HCID) in the UK.

    The 4 nations public health HCID group made an interim recommendation in January 2020 to classify COVID-19 as an HCID. This was based on consideration of the UK HCID criteria about the virus and the disease with information available during the early stages of the outbreak. Now that more is known about COVID-19, the public health bodies in the UK have reviewed the most up to date information about COVID-19 against the UK HCID criteria. They have determined that several features have now changed; in particular, more information is available about mortality rates (low overall), and there is now greater clinical awareness and a specific and sensitive laboratory test, the availability of which continues to increase.

    The Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens (ACDP) is also of the opinion that COVID-19 should no longer be classified as an HCID.

    The need to have a national, coordinated response remains, but this is being met by the government’s COVID-19 response.

    Cases of COVID-19 are no longer managed by HCID treatment centres only. All healthcare workers managing possible and confirmed cases should follow the updated national infection and prevention (IPC) guidance for COVID-19, which supersedes all previous IPC guidance for COVID-19. This guidance includes instructions about different personal protective equipment (PPE) ensembles that are appropriate for different clinical scenarios.

  20. #80

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    What exactly does downgraded mean in this sense though? I assume it's just based on the government's/WHO's definitions, it doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous.

    In the UK, a high consequence infectious disease (HCID) is defined according to the following criteria:

    acute infectious disease
    typically has a high case-fatality rate
    may not have effective prophylaxis or treatment
    often difficult to recognise and detect rapidly
    ability to spread in the community and within healthcare settings
    requires an enhanced individual, population and system response to ensure it is managed effectively, efficiently and safely
    I assume to be high consequence the mortality rate would have to be over a certain percent. Even though covid isn't safe to have the mortality rate is still relatively low unless you are over 70.

    Covid's danger seems to be more from how easily transmitted it is.

  21. #81

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by surge View Post
    While recognising no amount of funding would have prepared us, wouldn't we have been better prepared for this without 10 years of looking to reduce NHS capacity either through austerity or, at least in the short-term, Brexit? Part of the pre-election headlines Nicky Morgan admitting that current running of NHS would see 18,500 nurses leave over 10 year period. That may just be extending what was happening beforehand, and complicated by NHS being run by different parties around UK but the graphs chosen seem to suggest much greater investment beforehand. Why not join the EU scheme to bulk buy ventilators though?

    Boris Johnson with aid of Dominc Cummings is not your usual center-right government. It's not like Theresa May was differing rather it's someone who had a desire to shake up politics and, reportedly, lead to Dominc Cummings saying “herd immunity, protect the economy, and if that means some pensioners die, too bad.” That's a story from the The Times.
    The time to address what you say is when we know how the NHS coped at the time when it was under the most pressure. I accept that there would have been a different emphasis over the past decade with a Labour Government in power, but would it have made that much of a difference? We don't know yet and I'm more concerned for now about what seems to be poor planning in the immediate run up to COVID 19 arriving in this country rather than looking at things from a left v right perspective.

  22. #82

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    I thought ed was hopeless , david Miliband would have won us the election even if he was tainted by his association with the war monger
    Your Party Sludge are a fkn joke. No matter who was their leader, you would have lost the election, but not by so much. Sir Boris is doing a great job, and his Chancellor Sir Rishi, is absolutely fantastic. We have the best Chancellor ever IMHO, but Sir Boris falls short of our best ever PM, Lady Maggie Thatcher 😁

  23. #83

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    My grandfather was sent into battle in WW1. by the useless Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig, chief of staff of the British Expeditionary Force (BEF) He, was lucky to come home minus one leg.
    His great granddaughter has
    answered the call to return to the NHS as a nurse. She left a NHS management post in England because of the pressure of work. She went to the private sector.
    I sincerely hope she fairs better.. A lack of equipment means she has no faith
    in Field Marshal Johnson.

  24. #84

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    What exactly does downgraded mean in this sense though? I assume it's just based on the government's/WHO's definitions, it doesn't mean that it isn't dangerous.



    I assume to be high consequence the mortality rate would have to be over a certain percent. Even though covid isn't safe to have the mortality rate is still relatively low unless you are over 70.

    Covid's danger seems to be more from how easily transmitted it is.
    Yes, I don’t think the term ‘downgrading’ should be taken to mean it was considered any less critical. To suggest that I think would be misleading. I believe Ebola and SARS (HCIDs) have much higher mortality rates but were also far less contagious. But overall significantly more people will die from the Coronavirus than that the last Ebola and SARS outbreaks. That’s my interpretation anyway.

  25. #85

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talksport View Post
    Your Party Sludge are a fkn joke. No matter who was their leader, you would have lost the election, but not by so much. Sir Boris is doing a great job, and his Chancellor Sir Rishi, is absolutely fantastic. We have the best Chancellor ever IMHO, but Sir Boris falls short of our best ever PM, Lady Maggie Thatcher ��
    Damn right, at least she sent young men down to the South Atlantic so we couldn’t see them dying.

  26. #86

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talksport View Post
    Your Party Sludge are a fkn joke. No matter who was their leader, you would have lost the election, but not by so much. Sir Boris is doing a great job, and his Chancellor Sir Rishi, is absolutely fantastic. We have the best Chancellor ever IMHO, but Sir Boris falls short of our best ever PM, Lady Maggie Thatcher 😁
    What did you do in the Great CoronaVirus War of 2020, Dad?

    Activated a WUM account on CCMB and wound up a bunch of Commies, Son!

    Your my hero, Dad

  27. #87

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    What did you do in the Great CoronaVirus War of 2020, Dad?

    Activated a WUM account on CCMB and wound up a bunch of Commies, Son!

    Your my hero, Dad
    😎😎😎

  28. #88

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by the other bob wilson View Post
    Well if you're trying to argue that going with the herd mentality approach for a while and then doing a complete about face was all part of some masterplan, then good luck on that. Also, it's clearly counter productive to have people who may already have had and recovered from the virus sat at home because someone where they live may have it. The means to test more people and in greater numbers quicker and more efficiently was paramount surely, but,instead we took the decision only to test those with the worst symptoms - as I say, poor decision making as opposed to flawed political allegiance.
    So it's more a gut feeling than actual evidence then - not having a go, just curious.

    You can only test people so many times - test say yourself now, clear. Next day you get it. Unless those tests are continuously repeated they are meaningless.

    As for the herd immunity, the situation has been changing from day to day as more information is known about the virus. If the CMO had given advice and that had been ignored, I'd agree with you but frankly there's no evidence that is the case.

    With regards to things changing, Ferguson has gone from the doom scenario of 250k dead to less than 20k dead with most people who may well have died regardless. Lockdown of a few days hasn't caused that revision, it's acceptance of the fact most people have probably had it without symptoms, thus death rate lower than expected.

    My wife has a compromised immune system. As she went over the symptoms a week or so ago, it struck her that each symptom matched a virus she had back in December.

  29. #89

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    Why would labour have won that election under David?
    In my opinion, David provided a far more statesmanlike approach.

    Ed was like Forrest Gump after a lobotomy.

  30. #90

    Re: Johnson is dithering and a danger to us all.

    Quote Originally Posted by tell it like it is View Post
    So it's more a gut feeling than actual evidence then - not having a go, just curious.

    You can only test people so many times - test say yourself now, clear. Next day you get it. Unless those tests are continuously repeated they are meaningless.

    As for the herd immunity, the situation has been changing from day to day as more information is known about the virus. If the CMO had given advice and that had been ignored, I'd agree with you but frankly there's no evidence that is the case.

    With regards to things changing, Ferguson has gone from the doom scenario of 250k dead to less than 20k dead with most people who may well have died regardless. Lockdown of a few days hasn't caused that revision, it's acceptance of the fact most people have probably had it without symptoms, thus death rate lower than expected.

    My wife has a compromised immune system. As she went over the symptoms a week or so ago, it struck her that each symptom matched a virus she had back in December.
    Only 20000 dying.**** me that's comforting.Most of them would have died anyway.Well we all have to die its a matter of timing.There's a gravestone in Cwmbran inscribed with "I expected this but not yet"
    That's what we all wish for.

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