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Thread: 30 Ventilators

  1. #121
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    I think their response to this has been good in terms of looking after workers, but a shame it was about a month later than it should have been and a shame they've run our health system into the ground.

    I'm not going to look past a whole history of evidence after a month of panicking.
    but the NHS hasn't been run into the ground. That's dogma. If you're ill you will be seen, if you have an accident you will be taken care of. If you want a German style healthcare system where everyone has their own bed, their own room, waiting lists are unheard of and they have the newest equipment and hospitals, then two things need to happen. Firstly, we need more investment in UK healthcare and secondly, we need the state to remove itself from running healthcare, and leave it to the healthcare professionals.

  2. #122

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    stick your had in the sand all you like but many posters in this thread, before I entered the fray, were making the UK lack's of preparedness a political issue.

    Germany has a much better healthcare system that the UK. That's because the Germans use a mix of private and public healthcare provision - almost all service delivery is by the private sector with funding either from the state or your private insurance. We could learn so much from the Germans on healthcare delivery, but too many are myopic and prefer political dogma over practicality and results.
    This post is political dogma in itself.
    The only time the private sector is better for the customer than the public sector is when there is genuine market competition. That is never going to be the case for the cast majority of health care provision.
    The German system is pretty good, but it has been funded better than our system for as long as records began. If we matched their funding for a decaslde or more I think our system would be better. As it is, even with a significant funding disparity the NHS is on a par with Germany in a number of measures. Life expectancy etc

  3. #123
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by Rjk View Post
    This post is political dogma in itself.
    The only time the private sector is better for the customer than the public sector is when there is genuine market competition. That is never going to be the case for the cast majority of health care provision.
    The German system is pretty good, but it has been funded better than our system for as long as records began. If we matched their funding for a decaslde or more I think our system would be better. As it is, even with a significant funding disparity the NHS is on a par with Germany in a number of measures. Life expectancy etc
    we've had this discussion before so in the interests of brevity I won't go over it again, save to say its more than just life expectancy that is a desirable outcome. its quality of life from cradle to grave, and the German (and French) system is better than ours. They have genuine market competition, we could do but as you've seen in this thread, dogma is preferred over outcomes.

  4. #124

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    we need the state to remove itself from running healthcare, and leave it to the healthcare professionals.
    What like the NHS that have been running it from its inception?

  5. #125

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Brevity be facked.
    You think you're intellectual because you throw words into a sentence

  6. #126
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by insider View Post
    What like the NHS that have been running it from its inception?
    just my opinion, but based on treatment I've received in Germany and France - involving the private sector doesn't have to be along the lines of the shambolic US system, and can work if it is administered properly under the maxim "free for all at point of use"

  7. #127
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by insider View Post
    Brevity be facked.
    You think you're intellectual because you throw words into a sentence
    aren't sentences made up of words?

  8. #128

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    stick your had in the sand all you like but many posters in this thread, before I entered the fray, were making the UK lack's of preparedness a political issue.

    Germany has a much better healthcare system that the UK. That's because the Germans use a mix of private and public healthcare provision - almost all service delivery is by the private sector with funding either from the state or your private insurance. We could learn so much from the Germans on healthcare delivery, but too many are myopic and prefer political dogma over practicality and results.
    I could say the same about you, your irrational distrust of anything public sector encourages you to ignore the elephant in the room which is that we have a critical per head under spend on healthcare when compared to similar countries (like Germany).

  9. #129

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    From Wikipedia. It probably doesn't tell the whole story but interesting nevertheless.

    1920px-Health_care_cost_rise.svg.jpg

  10. #130
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    I could say the same about you, your irrational distrust of anything public sector encourages you to ignore the elephant in the room which is that we have a critical per head under spend on healthcare when compared to similar countries (like Germany).
    I dont mistrust the public sector. I just dont think they are best placed to always provide the service we need. The truth is a good mix of public and private will deliver the best outcome

  11. #131
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie View Post
    From Wikipedia. It probably doesn't tell the whole story but interesting nevertheless.

    1920px-Health_care_cost_rise.svg.jpg
    Good graph - the US illustrates that throwing money at a problem doesn't always deliver outcomes

  12. #132

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    Good graph - the US illustrates that throwing money at a problem doesn't always deliver outcomes
    Talk about moving the goal posts

    Surely the US shows that a private system isn't always better.

  13. #133

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    I dont mistrust the public sector. I just dont think they are best placed to always provide the service we need. The truth is a good mix of public and private will deliver the best outcome
    I have some sympathy with that view. The issue for me is that mix needs to be determined in a legal contract. Defining a contract in a way that best serves the objectives of its citizens particularly at times of crisis and gives the provider a reasonable profit is often beyond the gift of the participants. The better service providers will not exploit the contractual weaknesses but not all.

  14. #134

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    aren't sentences made up of words?
    Yes and they normally start with a capital letter.

  15. #135
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    Good graph - the US illustrates that throwing money at a problem doesn't always deliver outcomes
    It does if you are a grasping drug company racking up your profits on the back of pain and suffering!

  16. #136

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    I dont mistrust the public sector. I just dont think they are best placed to always provide the service we need. The truth is a good mix of public and private will deliver the best outcome
    The UK has that doesn't it? Some people will always think there should be more private involvement and some less. What it measurably doesn't have is comparable spending with its statistical neighbours.

  17. #137
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by Croesy Blue View Post
    Talk about moving the goal posts

    Surely the US shows that a private system isn't always better.
    I never said it was. The US healthcare system is not fit for purpose. If you re-read my posts you will find I say as much. Ive also said that we need a good blend of public and private collaboration.

  18. #138
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays View Post
    I have some sympathy with that view. The issue for me is that mix needs to be determined in a legal contract. Defining a contract in a way that best serves the objectives of its citizens particularly at times of crisis and gives the provider a reasonable profit is often beyond the gift of the participants. The better service providers will not exploit the contractual weaknesses but not all.
    BUPA, as one example, doesn't make a profit, with any surplus going into better healthcare

  19. #139
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by jon1959 View Post
    It does if you are a grasping drug company racking up your profits on the back of pain and suffering!
    Agreed. The US system is a national disgrace. No one should face bankruptcy for being ill

  20. #140
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric Cartman View Post
    The UK has that doesn't it? Some people will always think there should be more private involvement and some less. What it measurably doesn't have is comparable spending with its statistical neighbours.
    Around 80% of German healthcare delivery is private sector. Private sector doesn't always mean profit, such as BUPA.

  21. #141

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    So what you're suggesting is that by and large the UK public prefer right and centre right newspapers rather than the alternative.

    This backs up my point that the UK is predominantly right of centre


    Are you really suggesting that people buy newspapers based on the newspaper's political leanings?

    Look at it another way. Suppose the Mail, Express and Sun all developed more left wing tendencies and printed more about socialism. Not immediately, but say gradually over a long period. Would most of the regular readers of those papers stop buying them because they were no longer right wing, or would most of them continue reading the same papers but change their own political opinion in tune with the paper they read?

  22. #142
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    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee View Post


    Are you really suggesting that people buy newspapers based on the newspaper's political leanings?

    Look at it another way. Suppose the Mail, Express and Sun all developed more left wing tendencies and printed more about socialism. Not immediately, but say gradually over a long period. Would most of the regular readers of those papers stop buying them because they were no longer right wing, or would most of them continue reading the same papers but change their own political opinion in tune with the paper they read?
    I'm suggesting the UK is right of centre by looking at the amount of time we've had a Tory government compared to a Labour government, since Labour first came to power

  23. #143

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    I'm suggesting the UK is right of centre by looking at the amount of time we've had a Tory government compared to a Labour government, since Labour first came to power
    I don't agree that the UK has been right of centre for some time. As Labour lurched from left to right under Blair, its majority lessened. Since the last Labour government we've had 2 coalitions, one very flimsy Tory majority and now Boris. As I've already suggested the last election wasn't about left or right, it was Boris vs Corbyn and getting Brexit sorted. I've already suggested that lots of left wing policies are popular with the public. Corbyn wasn't.

  24. #144

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    we've had this discussion before so in the interests of brevity I won't go over it again, save to say its more than just life expectancy that is a desirable outcome. its quality of life from cradle to grave, and the German (and French) system is better than ours. They have genuine market competition, we could do but as you've seen in this thread, dogma is preferred over outcomes.
    They don't have anything like a perfect market competition, and there are many metrics that our system compares very well against yours, just not your own metric of "I went to the drs in Germany and it was great"

  25. #145

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    we've had this discussion before so in the interests of brevity I won't go over it again, save to say its more than just life expectancy that is a desirable outcome. its quality of life from cradle to grave, and the German (and French) system is better than ours. They have genuine market competition, we could do but as you've seen in this thread, dogma is preferred over outcomes.
    Its Feedback , I knew his right wing tory ideology would return

    Welcome

  26. #146

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    At this present time, I think the working class needs a government that promotes business and opportunity to succeed. Only with a strong economy can you have strong social justice.

    Political parties differ on how to get there, and I think (Brexit aside), the Tories are probably the best bet for now
    Course you do feedback , course you do

  27. #147

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Its Feedback , I knew his right wing tory ideology would return

    Welcome
    Not to mention his relentlessness. Good shout.

  28. #148

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    The sun has 4m readers. That alone is not enough to win any election.

    Your suggestion that Sun voters arent capable of independent thought is as arrogant as it is staggering. Its paradigms such as yours that are an inherent part of the problem
    Well the people I know who read the sun are thick as shit

  29. #149

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY View Post
    Well the people I know who read the sun are thick as shit
    Quite right. That's why I read the Sport.

  30. #150

    Re: 30 Ventilators

    Quote Originally Posted by TISS View Post
    but the NHS hasn't been run into the ground. That's dogma. If you're ill you will be seen, if you have an accident you will be taken care of. If you want a German style healthcare system where everyone has their own bed, their own room, waiting lists are unheard of and they have the newest equipment and hospitals, then two things need to happen. Firstly, we need more investment in UK healthcare and secondly, we need the state to remove itself from running healthcare, and leave it to the healthcare professionals.
    Waiting times for accident and emergency and outpatient appointments are shocking in england and worse in wales

    In england the tories have run down the NHS for ten years and in wales have given the NHS feck all to play with in the first place

    Feedback , you are off your cake

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