Is the media more interested in criticizing than reporting?

[Croesy Blue]

If he's a non-essential worker then he shouldn't be travelling.

Does it mean airline are right? No. He can't take any moral high ground on that issue.

Is he taking a moral highground? It seems to me like he's raising an issue which will benefit anyone travelling with that airline.

[Croesy Blue]

So an inaccuracy can occur in one category but not others?

Can you explain how a covid-19 death is registered in all nations - is it merely listing it if a person dies who happens to have covid-19?

Well you can look at overall deaths in Germany and make a judgement from that, unless you think they aren't registering deaths.

[tell it like it is]

Is he taking a moral highground? It seems to me like he's raising an issue which will benefit anyone travelling with that airline.

Agreed but he's adding to the problem by travelling if not a non-essential worker, right?

[tell it like it is]

Well you can look at overall deaths in Germany and make a judgement from that, unless you think they aren't registering deaths.

True but how do you determine a death as due to covid-19?

[Croesy Blue]

Agreed but he's adding to the problem by travelling if not a non-essential worker, right?

Yep

[Croesy Blue]

True but how do you determine a death as due to covid-19?

It doesn't really matter does it? if a country has had a huge rise in the number of deaths in the last couple of months compared to the preceding months and the same months for the previous years then that will be due to Covid unless there has been something else huge happening.

And if a country hasn't seen a huge rise in the death rate then they haven't had a lot of extra deaths caused by Covid.

[xsnaggle]

So are you and tell it like it is really suggesting that there could be another 70,000 virus related deaths in Germany and the doctors who sign the death certificates have either not noticed or are instructed not to attribute them to the virus?

I've just Googled "ten times more coronavirus cases in Germany" and it brought back a lot of hits about yesterday's report with only the Daily Mail suggesting that this could mean ten times more deaths - indeed, the Telegraph's angle on it was that it suggested ten times more people than originally thought could be immune to the virus.

I have no hard opinion on it, but in UK if the virus "Is present" it is recorded as the cause of death in every case regardless of what other illness condition whatever may be present. Perhaps in other countries it is only recorded as cause of death if the doctor is certain it was the direct cause. Until all the information is to hand we cannot compare.

[tell it like it is]

It doesn't really matter does it? if a country has had a huge rise in the number of deaths in the last couple of months compared to the preceding months and the same months for the previous years then that will be due to Covid unless there has been something else huge happening.

And if a country hasn't seen a huge rise in the death rate then they haven't had a lot of extra deaths caused by Covid.

How to quantify the former though? Could well be an outlier for other reason, there's no direct cause and effect. Unlikely but cant be discounted.

I suspect that whilst covid-19 is triggering underlying medical issues, leading to more deaths we can never absolutely know if those people would have died regardless - or indeed, indirectly. My mum has heart and kidney issues, has been staying in - as a result, less exercise. If anything did happen god forbid, then I'd view it as possibly an indirect cause of covid-19 / possibly her time had come due to her existing issues.

[tell it like it is]

I have no hard opinion on it, but in UK if the virus "Is present" it is recorded as the cause of death in every case regardless of what other illness condition whatever may be present. Perhaps in other countries it is only recorded as cause of death if the doctor is certain it was the direct cause. Until all the information is to hand we cannot compare.

Again, someone died in hospital from mum's care home. She's had numerous heart attacks over the years, died from a second heart attack whilst in hospital. She was found to have contracted covid-19 in hospital. If that was counted as a "covid-19 death" as a consequence then quite frankly it's ridiculous.

[xsnaggle]

Point 1, going to work isn't as bad for spreading the virus as going to the pub, it is also more necessary.

Point 2, are you saying we shouldn't ever complain about anything, even if as in this case it leads to things becomming more safe?

Your first comment is an opinon, not yet a fact.

the point I was making was that if he felt so endangered by the situation why did he fly? Why didn't he get off the plane and then complain? Probably because it suited him to fly, but he thought all the other people shouldn't have been allowed on the plane.

In reality because of ther recirculated air on the plane probably even with half the numbers any infection would have spread if it was going to.

[Croesy Blue]

Again, someone died in hospital from mum's care home. She's had numerous heart attacks over the years, died from a second heart attack whilst in hospital. She was found to have contracted covid-19 in hospital. If that was counted as a "covid-19 death" as a consequence then quite frankly it's ridiculous.

But there is a huge "extra" number of deaths compared to almost every other year on record. What do you think has caused a huge spike in deaths this year compared to every other year.

[Croesy Blue]

Your first comment is an opinon, not yet a fact.

the point I was making was that if he felt so endangered by the situation why did he fly? Why didn't he get off the plane and then complain? Probably because it suited him to fly, but he thought all the other people shouldn't have been allowed on the plane.

In reality because of ther recirculated air on the plane probably even with half the numbers any infection would have spread if it was going to.

No it isn't it's why the advice at the start of february was to close pubs and restaurants. Which bit do you think isn't a fact?

I don't see the reason why the guy flew makes a difference to the behaviour of the airline.

[tell it like it is]

But there is a huge "extra" number of deaths compared to almost every other year on record. What do you think has caused a huge spike in deaths this year compared to every other year.

It's going to have an effect, sure. Attributing every "extra" death to covid-19 is looking for a correlation rather than finding one.

[xsnaggle]

No it isn't it's why the advice at the start of february was to close pubs and restaurants. Which bit do you think isn't a fact?

I don't see the reason why the guy flew makes a difference to the behaviour of the airline.

It isn't a fact becasue no one has gone back to work yet who is locked down and no one has gone to the pub, so there are no numbers to show it is a fact. It may well be a sound scientific assumption but it is not a fact.
People on here and other pleaces, as i have said before, put things out as fact on the principle that if it is said often enough it will be accepted as fact, but what you said is not a fact (yet)

The guy flying makes no difference to the conduct of the airline but it does somewhat lessen his argument about the total disregard for safety if he chose to fly and complain afterwards.
His words would carry more weight if he had quite understandably refused to fly and insisted they take half the other people off the plane too. But his own personal want was of more importance to him than his own of other peoples safety (He may have been the virus carrier) until after he had acheived what he wanted. Only then did he choose to start stamping his feet and complaining. That's the point.

[Croesy Blue]

It's going to have an effect, sure. Attributing every "extra" death to covid-19 is looking for a correlation rather than finding one.

So when a country has an extra 20,000 deaths this year compared to every other year you can't say they're covid related?

[Croesy Blue]

It isn't a fact becasue no one has gone back to work yet who is locked down and no one has gone to the pub, so there are no numbers to show it is a fact. It may well be a sound scientific assumption but it is not a fact.
People on here and other pleaces, as i have said before, put things out as fact on the principle that if it is said often enough it will be accepted as fact, but what you said is not a fact (yet)

The guy flying makes no difference to the conduct of the airline but it does somewhat lessen his argument about the total disregard for safety if he chose to fly and complain afterwards.
His words would carry more weight if he had quite understandably refused to fly and insisted they take half the other people off the plane too. But his own personal want was of more importance to him than his own of other peoples safety (He may have been the virus carrier) until after he had acheived what he wanted. Only then did he choose to start stamping his feet and complaining. That's the point.

It's a fact, do you think it wasn't spreading before when people were in the pub and in work?

So you think he should have just kept quiet then?

[xsnaggle]

It's a fact, do you think it wasn't spreading before when people were in the pub and in work?

So you think he should have just kept quiet then?

Yes it was but there are no figures that prove it was spreading faster in pubs than in workplaces.

Bearing in mind that he chose to fly and put all the people he had interacted with since at higher risk of infection due to his action then probably yes.
As I said if he was so upset he should have complained at the time. It's like someone eating a steak in a restaurant then complaining it was no good. The question would be "Well why did you eat it?"
If he wanted to complain he should have done it quietly to the airline, not sought to put himself in the media. His colleagues might not think his actions were so honourable given that he got on the plane and put them all at risk.

[Croesy Blue]

Yes it was but there are no figures that prove it was spreading faster in pubs than in workplaces.

Bearing in mind that he chose to fly and put all the people he had interacted with since at higher risk of infection due to his action then probably yes.
As I said if he was so upset he should have complained at the time. It's like someone eating a steak in a restaurant then complaining it was no good. The question would be "Well why did you eat it?"
If he wanted to complain he should have done it quietly to the airline, not sought to put himself in the media. His colleagues might not think his actions were so honourable given that he got on the plane and put them all at risk.

Do you think there have never been viruses before this one? It's known where they spread easier. And even if they didn't one place is more necessary than the other.

So you think he shouldn't have raised that there is an issue with the airline operating like that then?

[tell it like it is]

Do you think there have never been viruses before this one? It's known where they spread easier. And even if they didn't one place is more necessary than the other.

So you think he shouldn't have raised that there is an issue with the airline operating like that then?

All have different natures though, can't compare one virus to another.

Should have raised the issue? Sure. Was he happy to put up with it to get to work, which I doubt was essential? Absolutely.

[Baloo]

It's going to have an effect, sure. Attributing every "extra" death to covid-19 is looking for a correlation rather than finding one.

Isn't excess mortality the data the government keeps telling us that we need to focus on to get a more meaningful picture?

[Croesy Blue]

Isn't excess mortality the data the government keeps telling us that we need to focus on to get a more meaningful picture?

It is yeah.

[Croesy Blue]

All have different natures though, can't compare one virus to another.

The more likely areas they spread don't tend to change though

[tell it like it is]

The more likely areas they spread don't tend to change though

Maybe. Different virii have different effects, transmission rates based upon environment.

Seems in Arizona, they've found a mutation that has weakened the virus. If true, could be the start of the end of the pandemic,

[xsnaggle]

Do you think there have never been viruses before this one? It's known where they spread easier. And even if they didn't one place is more necessary than the other.

So you think he shouldn't have raised that there is an issue with the airline operating like that then?

Yes there have but there are no figers for this one to stae as "A Fact", onlt evidence to support a probable relation ship.

As for the flyer, yes he should have complained but he shouldn't have flown, (making sure his own personal selfish needs were met) and then complained. He should have complained at the time and not put his coleagues at his place of work in extra danger of contamination.

You know quite well that is what I mean but as usual you conveniently choose to ignore it because it doesn't suit you. you will never conced the point os why not just give it a rest?

[Croesy Blue]

Yes there have but there are no figers for this one to stae as "A Fact", onlt evidence to support a probable relation ship.

As for the flyer, yes he should have complained but he shouldn't have flown, (making sure his own personal selfish needs were met) and then complained. He should have complained at the time and not put his coleagues at his place of work in extra danger of contamination.

You know quite well that is what I mean but as usual you conveniently choose to ignore it because it doesn't suit you. you will never conced the point os why not just give it a rest?

Is getting to work selfish now? How do you know enough about the situation to make a judgement?

It's beside the point anyway, the airline wasn't operating in a safe manner and needed to be called out on it.