Justice for George Floyd petition

[the other bob wilson]

I'm just going to post one more message on this thread and then I'm finished with it because it's depressing.

I've lived my life thinking that Cardiff was, relative to other parts of the UK, a racially tolerant place. I still feel that, but my faith in my city has been shaken a bit in the past decade as I heard more and more "send em back" type comments from people I like of my age or older in the city. Nevertheless, I'd say Cardiff, and the supporters of its football club, could teach other cities and other club's supporters a lot about racial tolerance.

The trouble is, I have a white person's view of racism - my view on it is based on the presumption that racist behaviour is always pretty easy to spot because it's so obvious. One of the things that it emerging in the days since George Floyd's death is that my perception of racism is a lot different from those who spend their lives having to deal with it.

Adrian Chiles told a story on his radio show last week about the former Home Secretary David Blunkett. I cannot remember the exact words used, but the point of the story is that Blunkett said one of the best things about being blind is that the colour of someone's skin became irrelevant to him because, more often than not, he had to be told about it to learn that someone was a different colour to him. In other words, he didn't have to go through the process that so many others do whereby they have to tailor their response to the skin colour of the individual/group involved - strikes me there are plenty in this thread for whom that process is a matter of course. Are they racists? I'd say no in most cases, but then my definition of the term comes from a white perspective.

[A Quiet Monkfish]

I'm just going to post one more message on this thread and then I'm finished with it because it's depressing.

I've lived my life thinking that Cardiff was, relative to other parts of the UK, a racially tolerant place. I still feel that, but my faith in my city has been shaken a bit in the past decade as I heard more and more "send em back" type comments from people I like of my age or older in the city. Nevertheless, I'd say Cardiff, and the supporters of its football club, could teach other cities and other club's supporters a lot about racial tolerance.

The trouble is, I have a white person's view of racism - my view on it is based on the presumption that racist behaviour is always pretty easy to spot because it's so obvious. One of the things that it emerging in the days since George Floyd's death is that my perception of racism is a lot different from those who spend their lives having to deal with it.

Adrian Chiles told a story on his radio show last week about the former Home Secretary David Blunkett. I cannot remember the exact words used, but the point of the story is that Blunkett said one of the best things about being blind is that the colour of someone's skin became irrelevant to him because, more often than not, he had to be told about it to learn that someone was a different colour to him. In other words, he didn't have to go through the process that so many others do whereby they have to tailor their response to the skin colour of the individual/group involved - strikes me there are plenty in this thread for whom that process is a matter of course. Are they racists? I'd say no in most cases, but then my definition of the term comes from a white perspective.

We're in danger of blurring the lines between racism and prejudice. I'm guessing 90% of Asian parents would prefer their son/daughter to marry another Asian. Probably the same with Jewish parents to a degree - and so on. I wouldn't consider such views as racist though as usual there's no stopping the over-reaction that treats the tiniest, most insignificant comment as racist, and the perpetrator a racist..

[Croesy Blue]

One point JR raises that’s spot on us if that was a pro Brexit March yesterday we’d be calling them ****ing idiots.

Just because we agree with the reason for this doesn’t mean we have to praise it.

[SLUDGE FACTORY]

I'm just going to post one more message on this thread and then I'm finished with it because it's depressing.

I've lived my life thinking that Cardiff was, relative to other parts of the UK, a racially tolerant place. I still feel that, but my faith in my city has been shaken a bit in the past decade as I heard more and more "send em back" type comments from people I like of my age or older in the city. Nevertheless, I'd say Cardiff, and the supporters of its football club, could teach other cities and other club's supporters a lot about racial tolerance.

The trouble is, I have a white person's view of racism - my view on it is based on the presumption that racist behaviour is always pretty easy to spot because it's so obvious. One of the things that it emerging in the days since George Floyd's death is that my perception of racism is a lot different from those who spend their lives having to deal with it.

Adrian Chiles told a story on his radio show last week about the former Home Secretary David Blunkett. I cannot remember the exact words used, but the point of the story is that Blunkett said one of the best things about being blind is that the colour of someone's skin became irrelevant to him because, more often than not, he had to be told about it to learn that someone was a different colour to him. In other words, he didn't have to go through the process that so many others do whereby they have to tailor their response to the skin colour of the individual/group involved - strikes me there are plenty in this thread for whom that process is a matter of course. Are they racists? I'd say no in most cases, but then my definition of the term comes from a white perspective.

Indeed most of us are white on here and we are saying oh cardiff is very racially tolerant and there isnt a racist problem in cardiff . How the feck would we know ?

Lots of examples of racist behaviour from cardiff city fans and plenty of racist incidents reported to south wales police about racist behaviour in cardiff society

Just because cardiff is cosmopolitan city doesnt mean we can deny it's a problem

Considering how multi racial cardiff is how many ethnic minority faces do you see at cardiff city games ?

Very very few

[blue matt]

Ive seen loads of racism while backpacking around Europe, loads of it while travelling away with football around england, i always went to city games with my best mate at the time who was Asian, the northern teams supporters would occasionally shout a little abuse at him while we travelled to the ground, i must admit, it didnt bother him in the slightest, when we were in Ostend ( travelling to Liege ) we attempted to get in a bar and the doorman said " you lot can come in, he has to wait outside ", we payed them a visit on our last night in ostend , nice of them to put a skip of building materials just down the end of the road

not really seen much racism from city fans, but at the time i classed a few of the edgy chants as " football banter chants " and thats all they were, i am sure people on here would say they were full on racist chants though and hang there heads in shame

[Croesy Blue]

Isn’t it easier to say something is banter if you’re white though? Not a pop it’s just probably harder for us to judge if something is banter if it’s in no way directed at us.

I honestly havent seen too much racism from city fans but I wouldn’t say it’s non existent.

I’ve definitely heard you’re just a town full of pakis a few times. Wouldn’t call that banter.

[blue matt]

Isn’t it easier to say something is banter if you’re white though? Not a pop it’s just probably harder for us to judge if something is banter if it’s in no way directed at us.

I honestly havent seen too much racism from city fans but I wouldn’t say it’s non existent.

I’ve definitely heard you’re just a town full of pakis a few times. Wouldn’t call that banter.

i could also see it from my Asian mates point of view though, as he would join in, he took chants as just " football banter " , we would occasionally chat about it, he saw it in the same sense as the " oh England is full of " chant, no-one really believes it is

[Llandaff Blue]

Odd that after all of your criticism of Sludge that you post something which states that the number of blacks who die in police custody in England and Wales is "disproportionately high" - presumably, he's won you around to his way of thinking.

But the chances of a white person dying in custody is higher, which is my point. If black people dying in police custody is an issue then so it’s the same for white people so why is it a racial issue rather than a general one?

The numbers are far too small to draw any conclusions, if only 163 people have died in police custody in the past 10 years despite the millions of arrests police make does that imply there’s a deep problem? You also have to consider how these deaths occur, they are usually heart attacks from drug and alcohol abuse.

Like I’ve said, there is racism issues in this country but trying to angle it as police are killing black people is factually wrong, sludge can’t comprehend this

[jon1959]

But the chances of a white person dying in custody is higher, which is my point. If black people dying in police custody is an issue then so it’s the same for white people so why is it a racial issue rather than a general one?

The numbers are far too small to draw any conclusions, if only 163 people have died in police custody in the past 10 years despite the millions of arrests police make does that imply there’s a deep problem? You also have to consider how these deaths occur, they are usually heart attacks from drug and alcohol abuse.

Like I’ve said, there is racism issues in this country but trying to angle it as police are killing black people is factually wrong, sludge can’t comprehend this

That isn't what the BBC article said that Llandaff Blue linked. It said the opposite. That black people are twice as likely to die in police custody as white people. There may be other factors involved (or maybe not), and the sample may be small (certainly compared to the USA) but your point is wrong if this is right:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363

[Llandaff Blue]

That isn't what the BBC article said that Llandaff Blue linked. It said the opposite. That black people are twice as likely to die in police custody as white people. There may be other factors involved (or maybe not), and the sample may be small (certainly compared to the USA) but your point is wrong if this is right:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363

That is the BBC article I have posted about 4 times now which clearly says white people have a 25% higher chance of dying in police custody. It appears both you and Bob didn't bother reading past the first graph, because the BBC article adjusts for arrests which show that white people die at a higher rate.

[jon1959]

That is the BBC article I have posted about 4 times now which clearly says white people have a 25% higher chance of dying in police custody. It appears both you and Bob didn't bother reading past the first graph, because the BBC article adjusts for arrests which show that white people die at a higher rate.

No - I read the whole article. The para Eric quoted above is one of three interlinked comments on deaths:

Black people are twice as likely as white to die in police custody - that is based on population not arrests!

Of people arrested white people are 25% more likely to die in police custody than black people.

Black people are twice as likely as white to die in police custody after the use of (police) force.

None of those statements are contradictory - and as I agreed above there may be a number of other factors that play into them other than simple ethnicity. I agree that once arrested black people are not more likely to die in the hands of the police (unlike in the USA) but they are much more likely to be arrested, stopped and searched, and given harsher sentences (at least that was what I took from the data quoted in the Secret Barrister's book). It may be that economic factors, health problems, substance dependency, postcode and other factors also influence the outcomes - but none of those are independent of race and ethnicity either.

[Llandaff Blue]

No - I read the whole article. The para Eric quoted above is one of three interlinked comments on deaths:

Black people are twice as likely as white to die in police custody - that is based on population not arrests!

Of people arrested white people are 25% more likely to die in police custody than black people.

Black people are twice as likely as white to die in police custody after the use of (police) force.

None of those statements are contradictory - and as I agreed above there may be a number of other factors that play into them other than simple ethnicity. I agree that once arrested black people are not more likely to die in the hands of the police (unlike in the USA) but they are much more likely to be arrested, stopped and searched, and given harsher sentences (at least that was what I took from the data quoted in the Secret Barrister's book). It may be that economic factors, health problems, substance dependency, postcode and other factors also influence the outcomes - but none of those are independent of race and ethnicity either.

Fair, I misunderstood your comment.

The situation regarding arrests, stop and search etc is one I agree with, and it's a wider conversation that needs to be had rather than people like Sludge trying to take the US policing issue and apply it here despite zero data supporting his claims.

[WJ99mobile]

They should ban protests while the virus is still so prevalent

Obviously support them in a few weeks when it’s a bit safer for all

[Eric Cartman]

That is the BBC article I have posted about 4 times now which clearly says white people have a 25% higher chance of dying in police custody. It appears both you and Bob didn't bother reading past the first graph, because the BBC article adjusts for arrests which show that white people die at a higher rate.

Just quoting the part of the article that you are referring to:

Of those arrested, 79% were white and 85% of those who died in custody were white.

Meanwhile, 9% of people arrested were black (which is disproportionally high) and 8% of those who died in custody were black.

So, over the last 10 years, a white individual who has been arrested was about 25% more likely to die in custody than a black individual who had been arrested.

This is the only relevant measure when looking at the specific issue of deaths in custody.

[trampie09]

Are posters conflating Cardiff dwellers with Bluebird fans ?, are people from Cardiff the same as people from the valleys ?
Are things different now to what they were in the past ?

[Wales-Bales]

Demonstrations against police violence end with 27 police officers being injured.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52954899

[life on mars]

Except that it isn't.

Unless, of course, the protestors drove 250 miles whilst having a passenger with Covid symptoms in the car, then drove a further 60 mile round trip on their spouses birthday, then blatently lied about the reasons for their journey, attempted to gaslight an entire nation, undermined the Govt. policy and treated the British public as idiots - all because they're untouchable thanks to the protection they get from the Prime Minister and his cabinet.

... or were they protesting for better civil rights and the only rule they were breaking in current lockdown in England be the social distancing one?

I hope I've connected the dots for you enough, LoM. Please let me know if you would like me to explain it in a way that my 4 year old would understand

Still hypocrisy

[life on mars]

Demonstrations against police violence end with 27 police officers being injured.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52954899

It's all fine life's maybe matter

[life on mars]

This should cheer a few up

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry...st-in-bristol/

[jon1959]

This should cheer a few up

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry...st-in-bristol/

Yes, much of that was very positive. Police went out of their way to praise the organisers and most of the protesters for promoting and following government guidance on social distancing, and on the event being almost totally peaceful and respectful.

The Colston statue removal raises a lot of interesting questions about how we treat our history and the messages we want to put out today. Clearly it was a small group out of the full demonstration who took down the statue and dumped it in the Avon. The police will be after them for criminal damage, but they have started a debate that has been missing for too long in Bristol. The city's wealth was based on the slave trade and there are countless references to slave traders in street and place names, the Colston Hall and the rest. This action should focus minds on how Bristol wants to recognise its history, but also who it wants to celebrate and why.

I remember watching a documentary last year that was looking in part at the slave trade legacy in Liverpool - especially street and place names. The black academics, activists and local historians who took part were almost all against re-naming to erase references to the slave trade past. They preferred to see information boards put up that gave information on the people and the trade ( a sort of blue plaque system) so that there was greater understanding and education. So Penny Lane would stay, but there would be a brief information board explaining how James Penny made his fortune - and at what cost to the slaves.

[blue matt]

This should cheer a few up

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry...st-in-bristol/

might put a different statue up in its place, mandela, dorothy height, martin luther king, malcom X, you know someone relevant to the area of Bristol, capture this moment in time ? ? ?

[A Quiet Monkfish]

might put a different statue up in its place, mandela, dorothy height, martin luther king, malcom X, you know someone relevant to the area of Bristol, capture this moment in time ? ? ?

Scott Murray..

[blue matt]

Scott Murray..

good call ticks the box

He is still at Bristol, kit manager now

[Heisenberg]

Still hypocrisy

I'm not sure that you understand hyprocrisy...

What did you say was the difference between the USA protests and the ones in HK that made you side with the protesters in HK but not the USA?

[Wales-Bales]

Clearly it was a small group out of the full demonstration who took down the statue and dumped it in the Avon.

How far back is this rewriting of history going to go? How about the ancient pyramids in Egypt? Are you in favour of them being smashed to pieces and thrown into the River Nile? Once you start down this road there is no end.