Reply With QuoteTaking the knee is an acknowledgment that society is racially unequal and that that has got to change. What are some "legitimate" reasons for not wanting to acknowledge that?Originally Posted by life on mars
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Yes
No
Leo Fortune West
I'd never boo , however I do think taking the knee needs to have an end date as Vindec wisely suggests .
There are probably footballers who have a view not to take the knee but do so because the sport and society would badly judge them, as we saw in Formula one not everyone wants too, that choice shouldn't not equate them as racists in my view .
Difficult question now (for all us ?)does this credible gesture have a permanence in football and sport ???
Taking the knee is an acknowledgment that society is racially unequal and that that has got to change. What are some "legitimate" reasons for not wanting to acknowledge that?
As we have 100% agreement in the poll, I will try and spark some debate by playing devils advocate.
I would not Boo black lives matter, I fully respect the right of people to peacefully protest against injustice, discrimination and racism of all kinds. However I do not support elements of the movement and therefore I personally if on a football pitch would not want to kneel, as this would be a contradiction to some of my principles, and hopefully I could show my solidarity in another way.
But would my refusal to kneel automatically brand me a racist?
Unfortunately I believe for many not wanting to kneel would open me up for immediate criticism.
This fact alone is one of my complaints, I am not a big fan of the: 'You are either with us or against us mentality' that surrounds the movement.
One of my biggest complaints is the organisers and individuals who have spoken for BLM. Primarily at rallies in the USA, These individual's are mainly college students who are self declared Marxist, proponents of identity politics and are using BLM to promote their political views, for example the Defund the Police movement.
As someone who is not a supporter of socialist's policy, Does not agree with the practicalities around defunding the police, and believes identity politics is extremely dangerous and does nothing but to further segregate and divide people than bring us together.
I also found it concerning, that while the world was under the strictest lockdown measures, the media and commentators tried to promote a narrative, that the protests of tens of thousands of people shouting in close proximity would not/did not contribute to the consequential covid spikes in the following 1-2 weeks.
In a fantastic paradox of the only thing worse than putting others peoples lives at risk via covid, is racism and therefore protests are justified.
In another example, remember the BLM police free zone?
Hundreds of protesters took over several blocks of Seattle and transformed it into the Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone, or “Chaz”, helping to amplify nationwide protests while offering a real-world example of what a community can look like without police.
within days, they became exactly what they claimed to hate, they put up walls, implemented their own policing and enforcement, beat up press and residents who resisted the takeover of their homes and businesses, and were allegations of shootings and sexual assaults' within the zone, that could not be investigated.
The Whole situation literally reads straight out of George Orwells, Animal Farm. And people should remember that history teaches us that the far left is just as dangerous as the far right.
It should continue until we see more of a level playing field, until we see black people given opportunities in positions of real responsibility and power. In football, black players weren't trusted by the racists in the 70's, 80's to put a shift in, didn't fancy it if things got a bit tough for them, didn't like the cold and didn't respond to criticism well, as players, they've got over that racist hurdle, it took long enough.
Now it's at the management level where black ex footballers with the relevant badges and training can't get a look in. Look at Sol Campbell, a world class player, yet he had to cut his teeth at Macclesfield, a club who were fighting to stay in the league as well as bankrupt. Compare that to other players with a similar pedigree-Frank Lampard, Steven Gerrard, jonathan woodgate,Nigel clough, Bryan Robson, Terry Butcher, Peter reid etc, all walked into decent jobs when they finished playing. Look at Paul Ince, Captain of England, played for Liverpool, Man utd and inter milan, had to start his journey at Macclesfield. John Barnes didn't get a sniff after things went wrong at celtic, yet a white player as decorated as he is would have got another gig, just lower down, and that's from his mouth.
How can someone who has failed as much (and really doesn't have any more to offer the game) as Steve cotterill be on his tenth managerial appointment at Shrewsbury? It's plain racism, a black manager wouldn't get past the second appointment.
I think that you can respect something even if parts of it don't agree with the way you see things. The overall message is a
positive one. I don't like the fact that this country sent troops into countries where we had no business, killing thousands, wrecking lives and economies, in turn for financial gain, basically creating civil wars in some regions. Would i stand in respect for a fallen british soldier-Absolutely i would, even if i don't agree with him being their in the first place. It's the establishment i'm protesting against, not the poor kid who was blown up. Same with my support for BLM, i can put certain aspects of it aside, if i need to.
I don't think anyone is suggesting that the message is inappropriate but you have to admit that, if the practice continues at kick off time indefinitely, the message will get stale. Perhaps for next season taking the knee could be introduced at a different time, for example at the beginning of the second half, or at the end of the match just to freshen the message up. Ultimately the authorities will have to decide whether the practice of taking the knee will continue after that.
Why do you think it will get stale, and what are you basing your opinion on? it's not a marketing ploy, maybe what you're saying is that it will start annoying a certain demographic a bit more, the longer it goes on-Racism doesn't stop, can't see why taking the knee has to.
That's a good way of putting it.
Wouldn't we be better doing something about it rather than acknowledging it? The fact that society is unequal towards poor (often non-white) people is only a shock to racists and idiots. The arena we pick to take the knee and demonstrate how bad the problem is? Sport - the one area where talent and genetics wins the day (over connections and nepotism) and black people are ****ing killing it.
Maybe 5 seconds isn't long enough to completely get rid of racism, they could add a minute or two to the kneeling every year that racism isn't eradicated?
That's a great idea-Get on to the football authorities.
A very good reply just how i feel.
Agreed, summed up my thoughts exactlyA very good reply just how i feel.
Part of the problem with the BLM movement is how strongly it is tied to American politics and the incredibly polarised nature of it but we should try and separate the issue from the pantomime as much as possible. The issue is structural racism and by taking a knee in the UK you aren't supporting defunding the police or Chaz in America and by not taking a knee you aren't a skinhead Nazi.
My concern is that this is 'clapping the NHS' all over again, it gives people who wouldn't lift a finger to force the kind of positive change that is required (and quite often would vote directly against it) an easy way to pretend they are on the right side of history.
Acknowledging it and doing something about it aren't mutually exclusive though are they? And racism is rife in sport, football especially, regardless of if "black people are killing it" so it's a great arena to acknowledge it, although it's not the only one which does, which is what you seem to be suggesting
BLM is a message of anti-racism, it's a loosely formed movement of people from a wide-spectrum (some part of radical organisations, most not) who were captured by the need for such a message and recognise the need for change, and a new organisation. The football players probably don't know enough about the new organisation, or any other organisation using the slogan, but probably were amongst the majority who support the anti-racist message and were captured by need to speak out and promote change.
Opponents to message also come from a spectrum of people as well with some who oppose an anti-racist message, some of whom oppose any changes to make current system more fair (or have been told the changes that will be made are radical and scary), and some who belong to both groups. This loosely formed group will tell you that BLM is a far-left and violent, echoing what they have read in the Mail/Spectator/Telegraph etc., but have forgotten that large scale change are often brought about by coalitions with what used to be seen as radicals being active at the core. Mostly, I am really looking forward to see if Millwall fans boo Remembrance Sunday because Churchill (British hero) worked with Stalin (communist - must be booed) and Rooservelt (anti-business, pro-government interference in order to support poor and unemployed and so seems a bit too "marxist" - must be booed)....
I'm not saying that at all. I think the current practice may get stale in time but if you think differently then that's fine.
They aren't but what is anybody actually doing?
Worth pointing out that there are two issues here and I think the primary concern should be structural racism (this was always meant about black lives and not black feelings), once you manage to make public/private sector leadership more balanced and inclusive (not by quota but by interrogating their recruitment processes and systems and prosecuting people for discrimination) then we will see an automatic reduction in the kind of casual racism that is hurtful on an individual level. When you pop into Barclays to pay in some cheques, do you take a quick knee to protest against the fact that their leadership/board are a bunch of old white men? I certainly don't and nobody has asked me to.
Trying to associate the kneeling to politics is a dog whistle.
Racism isn't political, so by trying to make it political certain people can hide behind BS excuses like "free speech" and scream "how dare you attack my political opinion, you Marxist!". They want a way to not be held accountable for their racism. It's why they rail against so called "cancel culture" when it used to be called being held accountable for your actions.
The last few years of Trump, Brexit et al has shown people how to be a c*nt in public and get away with it.
I don't think that it will get stale, it'll become more relevant as more racist behaviour occurs. That's the beauty of it, some people may get used to it, although it'll refresh their minds in my opinion when the next bout of racism occurs. Hopefully it's making some people very uncomfortable and they'll show their true self the longer it goes on.
I actually think it’s doing a good job still as it makes people who would never give societal racism a second thought and helps raise awareness of being anti racist among those same people, especially among kids and will help normalise it.
I don’t think it has anywhere near the same emptiness as the NHS did.
I think defund the police gets more negative press than it deserves too. Firstly it doesn’t really apply in the U.K. but the way the police is funded isn’t like the US.
And even BLM don’t want to completely get rid of the police more divert a lot of the funds to areas that will help prevent crime rather than just sending the police to deal with every issue.
Although we have freedom of speech in the UK, the only reason anyone would boo the taking of the knee before games imo, is if they are racist.
I don’t want racists anywhere near my football club,
I want Cardiff City to ban for life, anyone who boos the taking of the knee at the CCS.
I want my club Cardiff City, to be the first club in the UK to do this., and i want them to continue doing it for as long as the booing keeps rearing it’s ugly head.
Paying lip service is no longer an option imo, and it’s now time to take action.
.I am going to email the club about this, and the more folk that also email the club, the more chance of them taking notice.
Well put
You can even see it on here with everyone’s attitude towards it, everyone understands it and you can see everyone wants more anti racism.
You’re never going to change the opinion of the racists but if you can just make those of us of never think about it recognise it you’ll go a long way towards removing it as much as possible.
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