The game showed Harris' limitations

[Bobby Dandruff]

Here we go. A total inability to accept that in the previous four games Harris got the team selection, tactics, substitutions right (12 points, 10 goals scored, one goal conceded) and then you go on to denigrate the four wins by saying the opposition was rubbish (whilst totally forgetting that we also beat Watford, one of the strongest sides in the division). We got it wrong yesterday and played poorly, which played into your hands as a constant Harris and City hater. No doubt you are eagerly awaiting the next defeat. I really don't understand what you get out of your constant criticism. You obviously don’t enjoy following City but you obviously enjoy moaning, as you appear have made it into something of an art form. PS. We drew with Bournemouth by the way, so by your logic they cant be that good.

I’m glad that you enjoyed us being on the end of another football g lesson yesterday then.

Bizarre.

[Don Corleone]

In general I think many Cardiff fans over rate Ralls

I don’t think so , his goals and assists are regularly at the top end for a Championship midfielder ( he’s currently around 4th I think for assists this season). I wouldn’t take Fulton or Korey Smith over him anytime. I’d argue it’s easier to criticise one of our own, a lot of other teams would certainly find a place for him in their side, he’s been an integral part of a team that has been promoted twice from the Championship. He has his limitations of course but I don’t think they way we play helps him either. I think , for example, he would comfortably fit in and improve Swansea’s current midfield

[Don Corleone]

All 4 sides were above us. 2 of them still are. I notice you conveniently left out Watford because that didn't suit your argument. Has it occurred to you that we made them look bad? Bournemouth have 30/40m pound players. You said it was embarrassing for us, I think it is embarrassing for them that they're playing the likes of us.

Huddersfield won the game before us and the two after. Luton the same. Again, doesn't suit your argument.

Good points well made

Still we were b****y awful yesterday and continue to be every so many games

[Former Labour leader]

I don't think Cooper out-thought Harris, he just had better players at his disposal and a way of playing that generally causes us problems. Harris was too slow with his substitutions, but today was one of those days where, collectively as a club, we were second best by a distance.

I think you may have been watching us play a little longer than me, but I think we've both seen an awful lot of City teams down the years so are well placed to say whether there is a typical Cardiff way of playing. I tend to agree with you that City have favoured physical football with a direct style and at least one big centre forward - I wouldn't say we've always been that attack minded though.

What makes the current situation a bit different for me though is that right from someone like Barrie Hole, I can remember City teams with a technical footballer somewhere in the central midfield. Poorer teams than this one had, for example, Johnny Vincent, Alan Campbell, Billy Robson, David Tong, Brian McDermott, Jason Fowler and Gareth Whaley in there - players who were comfortable with the ball and able to give and receive passes without their technical limitations being exposed.

It's different with recent teams where so many times you say the ball hooked over a midfielders head into "an area" - with resources and facilities that are so much superior to what the players I listed saw at the club, I find it sad that we're so bad at certain aspects of the game.

You rather give the game away by referring to "tippy tappy" football. So many talk as if there are only two ways to play the game, tippy, tappy or direct, but most sides play something in between these extremes. That's what I want to us become better at, because it would be daft to suddenly do away with the things we're good at, but, season after season, the stats show we're poor at passing the ball and keeping it and it seems equally daft for us to not to try to improve this part of our game.

I did explain my use of the term tippy tappy on another post. It was to emphasise my point that you dont need to play possession based football to be pleasing on the eye or successful.
It was interesting that you mentioned all those players from yesteryear. I suspect one or two of them would not cut it in today's football. Having said that we do have Pack, who at his best does seem to have a modicum of control, albeit slowly!
What said really made me think how much we miss Tomlin. The one play who can pass and control the ball. If only he had been fit I am pretty confident he would have brought the best out of Harry Wilson and we would be comfortably placed in the playoffs.
We are really not that bad a team on our day.

[surge]

The most obvious change would have been to take Harris off who, I am afraid , is out of his depth. Wilson was completely wasted playing on the right wing and should have been switched to a number 10 position. Glatzel should have been brought on playing behind Moore and Benkovic should have been alongside Morrison with Nelson going right back with Bacuna replacing Vaulks. I am not saying we would have won but it could have more than likely avoided Ralls getting sent off who was trying to do the work of two men.
Don’t forget that I am just an armchair pundit but if Harris, being handsomely paid, was not aware of the obvious then we need a new manager.

I don't think we can say Harris is out of his depth on basis of 3 good games and 2 more tired performances. Ideally, Harris would have started with Glatzel with Moore coming on to replace him (Harris) around 70 minutes and at 0-0 or 0-1.

Given that we had won four on the bounce, I wonder how fans would have reacted to Harris parking the bus and aiming for a point? 13 points out of 15 but with players not being asked to attack and save themselves for Birmingham may have wound up many but it would have been a better result in many ways. Without fans in the ground and off the back of a winning run I reckon Harris (manager) would have gotten away with it.

[Pedro de la Rosa]

Good points well made

Still we were b****y awful yesterday and continue to be every so many games

Absolutely. We are immensely frustrating and we're really going to struggle if Moore is going to be out for any length of time. He's so good for us. I think they'll be a reaction in midweek but we need to get to the bottom of why we're conceding the first goal so often. Is it 11 times this season?

[City123]

I don't think we can say Harris is out of his depth on basis of 3 good games and 2 more tired performances. Ideally, Harris would have started with Glatzel with Moore coming on to replace him (Harris) around 70 minutes and at 0-0 or 0-1.

Given that we had won four on the bounce, I wonder how fans would have reacted to Harris parking the bus and aiming for a point? 13 points out of 15 but with players not being asked to attack and save themselves for Birmingham may have wound up many but it would have been a better result in many ways. Without fans in the ground and off the back of a winning run I reckon Harris (manager) would have gotten away with it.

Writing off promising players after a couple of games is very much the "Cardiff Way"

[pomeroy]

I don't think we can say Harris is out of his depth on basis of 3 good games and 2 more tired performances. Ideally, Harris would have started with Glatzel with Moore coming on to replace him (Harris) around 70 minutes and at 0-0 or 0-1.

Given that we had won four on the bounce, I wonder how fans would have reacted to Harris parking the bus and aiming for a point? 13 points out of 15 but with players not being asked to attack and save themselves for Birmingham may have wound up many but it would have been a better result in many ways. Without fans in the ground and off the back of a winning run I reckon Harris (manager) would have gotten away with it.

I have been supporting City for nearly 70 years and it was always been the maxim in derby games if you can’t win don’t lose or don’t lose in such a way as you surrender, as we did on Saturday. The manager has to take full responsibility for our pathetic performance.
In regard by my assessment of Harris ( the player ) I hope I am wrong but I stil think that the lad is out of his depth.

[the other bob wilson]

I did explain my use of the term tippy tappy on another post. It was to emphasise my point that you dont need to play possession based football to be pleasing on the eye or successful.
It was interesting that you mentioned all those players from yesteryear. I suspect one or two of them would not cut it in today's football. Having said that we do have Pack, who at his best does seem to have a modicum of control, albeit slowly!
What said really made me think how much we miss Tomlin. The one play who can pass and control the ball. If only he had been fit I am pretty confident he would have brought the best out of Harry Wilson and we would be comfortably placed in the playoffs.
We are really not that bad a team on our day.

I'm not saying we're a bad side at this level, just that we're a more limited one than we should be. For me, Tomlin would have had the problem that Wilson does - he doesn't see enough of the ball because we struggle to get it to him in areas where he can cause damage.

[Tuerto]

I'm not saying we're a bad side at this level, just that we're a more limited one than we should be. For me, Tomlin would have had the problem that Wilson does - he doesn't see enough of the ball because we struggle to get it to him in areas where he can cause damage.

There's no fluidity, we lack comfort on the ball, players aren't versed on taking up positions that can harm the opposition. It's all very well saying that we need to pass the ball better, but if players don't understand that they have to take up positions, move into advanced areas and know that other players are going to support them, then passing the ball just gets us into a whole lot of shit.

The way we play is rigid, it's about width, anything in the middle is about stopping the opposition. If we do try to play then it's done in front of the opposition, no movement, no runners, hardly anyone wanting to receive the ball. look how often a player has to take three touches and wait for support, it's shit, the move has gone and the opposition are back in.

[NYCBlue]

I don't think we'll ever find out whether Harris can be a good manager. The squad we have is limited. I don't think there's much that he, or anyone else could do with them. And I don't think he'll be around long enough for us to see different.

[Eric the Half a Bee]

I don't think we'll ever find out whether Harris can be a good manager. The squad we have is limited. I don't think there's much that he, or anyone else could do with them. And I don't think he'll be around long enough for us to see different.

I agree with that. He's got a great opportunity to take quite a big club at this level forward. He's stuck in a hard place of needing to get results to please the board and fans, and trying to edge us away from Warnockball. My worry is that I don't see him as a great a tactician and he appears to have trouble motivating the side. I also don't think he's the man to take us to a higher level in terms of performance, passing, movement, a more modern game. He's ok for now, not for the long term though.

[blue lewj]

Limited squad or not, Harris watching a two man central midfield being overrun by their three and not doing anything about it confirms to me that we need a new man in charge and take us in a truly new direction. We will not go up at any time under this man.

You have the apologists that say we can't play a more expansive game but we've not even tried. If this is the case then get a man in who can and use all the money we are paying to try to achieve this. Giving money to Harris to carry on in the Warnock vein (long throw anyone) is wasted money as whenever the new man comes in it will be a case of rip it up and start again. Then again given who would be picking the new guy we're probably scouring the leagues to find somebody who doesn't create much from general play, plays for set pieces and lumps it in to the big fellas and hopes for the best.

Some people are of the opinion that our team can't play a more expansive game. If you check virtually every signing we have made they played a more expansive style at their former club prior to coming here. It sadly isn't all that difficult. If this style was taking us up automatic or even getting a play off spot it might excuse it. It isn't and the run of 4 wins only serves to paper over the cracks.

[BLUETIT]

Limited squad or not, Harris watching a two man central midfield being overrun by their three and not doing anything about it confirms to me that we need a new man in charge and take us in a truly new direction. We will not go up at any time under this man.

You have the apologists that say we can't play a more expansive game but we've not even tried. If this is the case then get a man in who can and use all the money we are paying to try to achieve this. Giving money to Harris to carry on in the Warnock vein (long throw anyone) is wasted money as whenever the new man comes in it will be a case of rip it up and start again. Then again given who would be picking the new guy we're probably scouring the leagues to find somebody who doesn't create much from general play, plays for set pieces and lumps it in to the big fellas and hopes for the best.

Some people are of the opinion that our team can't play a more expansive game. If you check virtually every signing we have made they played a more expansive style at their former club prior to coming here. It sadly isn't all that difficult. If this style was taking us up automatic or even getting a play off spot it might excuse it. It isn't and the run of 4 wins only serves to paper over the cracks.

Be careful what you wish for !!!!! LOOK AT ARSENAL

[surge]

Players brought into the side by Harris:

- Smithies
- Tomlin
- Sanderson
- Brad Smith (from Bournemouth)
- Adomah

- Moore
- Wilson
- Ojo
- Osei-Tutu
- Phillips (GK)
- Benkovic (from Leicester)
- Bagan
- Harris

Players brought back into the side by Harris:

- Pack

Players who have left: Patterson, Flint, Etheridge, Peltier, Bogle, Ward.

Unless we can convince someone to buy one of them, we're with Pack, Vaulks, Ralls and Bacuna in the midfield until at least the end of 2022 and the contracts of Murphy and Vassell until the end of the same year. Our budget is also going to shrink at the end of this year.

At the end of this year we also lose 2 CBs, 1 RB, 2 LB's, 3 offensive midfielders. Realistically we're looking for 8 plus players to come into the squad through transfer window and promoting from within. Based on the players he's brought into the team and let leave, do you trust Harris to be the person to find that group of players? If no and you want to change of manager at the end of this year, would you agree that we're unlikely to be looking for many more than 8 players in one window and therefore the base of the midfield is likely to be players Warnock signed until the end of 2022?

[LeningradCowboy]

Limited squad or not, Harris watching a two man central midfield being overrun by their three and not doing anything about it confirms to me that we need a new man in charge and take us in a truly new direction. We will not go up at any time under this man.

You have the apologists that say we can't play a more expansive game but we've not even tried. If this is the case then get a man in who can and use all the money we are paying to try to achieve this. Giving money to Harris to carry on in the Warnock vein (long throw anyone) is wasted money as whenever the new man comes in it will be a case of rip it up and start again. Then again given who would be picking the new guy we're probably scouring the leagues to find somebody who doesn't create much from general play, plays for set pieces and lumps it in to the big fellas and hopes for the best.

Some people are of the opinion that our team can't play a more expansive game. If you check virtually every signing we have made they played a more expansive style at their former club prior to coming here. It sadly isn't all that difficult. If this style was taking us up automatic or even getting a play off spot it might excuse it. It isn't and the run of 4 wins only serves to paper over the cracks.

We did try to play more possession football earlier in the season. The results were not good, which is why Harris switched to 4-4-2 and going more direct. You can demand that we play a more expansive game as much as you like, but it isn't going to happen until we find some unsuspecting clubs to take Pack and Vaulks off our hands and we sign a couple of replacement who can actually pass the ball.

[Cyncoed Slumdog]

I think you may have been watching us play a little longer than me, but I think we've both seen an awful lot of City teams down the years so are well placed to say whether there is a typical Cardiff way of playing. I tend to agree with you that City have favoured physical football with a direct style and at least one big centre forward - I wouldn't say we've always been that attack minded though.

What makes the current situation a bit different for me though is that right from someone like Barrie Hole, I can remember City teams with a technical footballer somewhere in the central midfield. Poorer teams than this one had, for example, Johnny Vincent, Alan Campbell, Billy Robson, David Tong, Brian McDermott, Jason Fowler and Gareth Whaley in there - players who were comfortable with the ball and able to give and receive passes without their technical limitations being exposed.

It's different with recent teams where so many times you say the ball hooked over a midfielders head into "an area" - with resources and facilities that are so much superior to what the players I listed saw at the club, I find it sad that we're so bad at certain aspects of the game.

You rather give the game away by referring to "tippy tappy" football. So many talk as if there are only two ways to play the game, tippy, tappy or direct, but most sides play something in between these extremes. That's what I want to us become better at, because it would be daft to suddenly do away with the things we're good at, but, season after season, the stats show we're poor at passing the ball and keeping it and it seems equally daft for us to not to try to improve this part of our game.

I'll see your midfield and raise you Ian Gibson and Ivor Allchurch.

[Rjk]

It seems that a lot of people are reading a lot into one bad result here. yes we didn't play well, but we are a top half team with a chance of the playoffs.
One performance doesn't change that

[surge]

Players brought into the side by Harris:

- Smithies
- Tomlin
- Sanderson
- Brad Smith (from Bournemouth)
- Adomah

- Moore
- Wilson
- Ojo
- Osei-Tutu
- Phillips (GK)
- Benkovic (from Leicester)
- Bagan
- Harris

Players brought back into the side by Harris:

- Pack

Players who have left: Patterson, Flint, Etheridge, Peltier, Bogle, Ward.

Unless we can convince someone to buy one of them, we're with Pack, Vaulks, Ralls and Bacuna in the midfield until at least the end of 2022 and the contracts of Murphy and Vassell until the end of the same year. Our budget is also going to shrink at the end of this year.

At the end of this year we also lose 2 CBs, 1 RB, 2 LB's, 3 offensive midfielders. Realistically we're looking for 8 plus players to come into the squad through transfer window and promoting from within. Based on the players he's brought into the team and let leave, do you trust Harris to be the person to find that group of players? If no and you want to change of manager at the end of this year, would you agree that we're unlikely to be looking for many more than 8 players in one window and therefore the base of the midfield is likely to be players Warnock signed until the end of 2022?

Mark Harris' deal was until 2021 so we're down 9 players who have appeared in our starting 11 or been regulars on our bench so far this season. Flint of course returns and with us until 2022 as well.

Which one of our players is going to be sold to raise funds to bring in new transfers? How are you going to manage to replace 9 players and bring in 2 plus midfielders to help play a more expansive game? Or is the plan to play a more expansive game next year with Warnock's midfield?

Not going to say Harris (manager) is the man but do think it's likely we have the same complaints next year whoever is in charge.

[blue lewj]

Be careful what you wish for !!!!! LOOK AT ARSENAL

Funnily enough I see Arsenal as a bigger version of what is happening at City.

A board of men who haven't the foggiest of what is needed at the club. Wenger was about the best at overseeing the asylum and the managers that have arrived since show that.

[blue lewj]

It seems that a lot of people are reading a lot into one bad result here. yes we didn't play well, but we are a top half team with a chance of the playoffs.
One performance doesn't change that

I'd temper that by saying that a lot of people are taking the 4 win run into account while ignoring the start to the season that was way below par.

[blue lewj]

13 players mentioned above that were brought in by Harris and not one addressing the central midfield issue.

Listen to many though and we simply couldn't make a signing in that area. I disagree.

For me it comes down to what the board want. If they want to kick around mid table and play football that isn't great to watch then Harris is your man.
Promotion? I certainly can't see it happening with him in charge.

[surge]

13 players mentioned above that were brought in by Harris and not one addressing the central midfield issue.

Listen to many though and we simply couldn't make a signing in that area. I disagree.

For me it comes down to what the board want. If they want to kick around mid table and play football that isn't great to watch then Harris is your man.
Promotion? I certainly can't see it happening with him in charge.

Which players do you not bring in so you can bring in two midfielders to transform that area on the pitch? Or do you believe we can have four midfielders on the bench in the stands getting paid to not play when we already have Vassell and Murphy doing that? Or do you believe that we don't need 2 new midfielders and Warnock's signings can play the football we want?

Or do you see a player that will attract a large fee so we have more money to play around with? Remember you're needing to replace 9 players from our match day squad as well.

[Rjk]

13 players mentioned above that were brought in by Harris and not one addressing the central midfield issue.

Listen to many though and we simply couldn't make a signing in that area. I disagree.

For me it comes down to what the board want. If they want to kick around mid table and play football that isn't great to watch then Harris is your man.
Promotion? I certainly can't see it happening with him in charge.

yes ideally we would have brought in something a bit different in central midfield, but given the mess in the squad and the fact that all the players there have at least 2 more years on their contracts it isn't surprising that we didn't bring anyone in.
Even this summer we will need to bring in at least 2 probably 3 fullbacks, at least 2 wingers and probably 2 centre backs, so I doubt we will be able to address our central midfield then either.
A lot of this is Warnock's fault.

[blue lewj]

Which players do you not bring in so you can bring in two midfielders to transform that area on the pitch? Or do you believe we can have four midfielders on the bench in the stands getting paid to not play when we already have Vassell and Murphy doing that? Or do you believe that we don't need 2 new midfielders and Warnock's signings can play the football we want?

Or do you see a player that will attract a large fee so we have more money to play around with? Remember you're needing to replace 9 players from our match day squad as well.

Benkovic hasn't seen one minute of game time. Brad Smith was given a few minutes here and there to name two.

I also don't think the money would not be there if the argument was put forward for a loan or permanent move especially if he put across how shackled he is by Warnock's signings.

I dont think Harris sees there being much of an issue with his midfield. It may be the reason he watched on while Ralls and Vaulks got made to look stupid in the middle against the Jacks.