Reply With QuoteI think its fair to re evaluate a result at a later date when you see how that side performed against othersOriginally Posted by The Lone Gunman
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Sorry, you’ve lost me. Austria? I honestly don’t know what you’re trying to say. Are you claiming that Wales did better than most of us seem to believe? If so, I simply don’t agree. But maybe someone else does. If so, I’m sure they’ll say as much in due course.
I think its fair to re evaluate a result at a later date when you see how that side performed against others
So do I. But be honest, have you re-evaluated the Welsh performances in light of subsequent results?
I think our performance and especially result against Switzerland looks a bit better considering how they've done. At the time I thought we didn't offer enough going forward but seeing how they dealt with Spain (and France for most of that game) I think I was a little harsh
I've purged most of the Denmark game from my memory so there'll be no re-evaluations of that
No need.
The result against the Swiss was a good one. We were lucky the performance was poor we should have lost.
Turkey good result and performance.
Italy completely outclassed against a side in 3rd gear.
Denmark dismal.
Makes no difference how teams did as the tournament went on.
Agree, Denmark are obviously better than some of us thought, certainly me, anyway. Remember us getting tonked by Man City at home in the rain (5-0) i think it was, under Warnock. We were utter shit, i don't think that we put 2 passes together. Anyway, Man City won the league that season. That game was in August or September. Does anyone look back on our performance during that game and pick out some positives, simply because Man City went on to win the league? I don't, we were awful.
We also werent world beaters when we got relegated the season we beat Man City and they won the league.
It was a great performance on the day.
Wales performances are not suddenly better because the Swiss have done well.
Denmark were made to look better than they were by Wales I’m afraid. I’m still angry at our non performance, it was embarrassing.
When Wales played Denmark we had just done excessive amount of travelling, were playing a side FIFA ranked 7 places higher, were effectively playing away from home and had a ref give several dodgy decisions against us.
I could say that Switzerland ran out of steam when playing Spain due to excessive travel and playing a side FIFA ranked 7 places higher which resulted in injuries, bookings and eventually going out of the tournament or that Ukraine picked up several injuries playing Sweden who are 6 places higher after excessive travel and looked generally fatigued, but maybe the big test for my theory is that Denmark now play England in similar circumstances to when we faced them. I don't expect 4-0 but if that is the result maybe we should see our result against the Danes differently at that point?
Like I said, we're bound to see the teams we played differently as the tournament progresses and in months after the tournament. Thing is still going so let's wait before making final reflections.
All of that is true. What is also true is that Wales played poorly and were soundly beaten by a much better team. Therefore, I’m not really sure what the debate is about.
Tuerto mentions that 5-0 defeat by Man City. That game annoyed me because we were so meek and accepting of our fate, but there was also a realism with the anger that, given the difference between playing and financial resources between the two clubs, as well as other things like facilities and quality of support staff, that the outcome when we played them would be something similar about eighty per cent of the time. We also conceded five at home that season against Man United and Watford. Although the former were vulnerable that season, as was shown when we went there and won on the final day of the season, much the same applied as with Man City and they also had the boost of it being Ole's first match in charge. With Watford however, that was different, after winning their first four matches, their form was patchy over the rest of the season and they only took ten points from the elven matches they played after their win here - that form continued through 19/20 when they were relegated.
Back in 13/14 in our other Premier League season, we lost 4-0 to Hull at home, a side that had finished plenty of points behind us in the Championship in 12/13. Hull finished in sixteenth place in 13/14 and so losing so heavily to a team like that was pathetic and it was hard to come up with reasons that began to come close to explaining or justifying why we were so much worse than them.
In these examples, Man City are the Italy comparison and Watford and Hull the Austria allusion I made - some heavy defeats (e.g. 4-0 last week) can be partly explained or justified by the quality of the opposition, whereas others just look awful because they are. To look at every 4-0 loss solely from the viewpoint of your own team without making any allowance whatsoever for the quality of the opposition is wrong surely ?
I would say a majority of pundits and supporters did not expect Switzerland, Italy and Denmark to have done as well as they have done in this tournament and so I think it's reasonable to ask if our performances against each of them might not have been quite as bad as they seemed at the time.
In my view, the above should be borne in mind at least by anyone attempting to put together a realistic appraisal of how well or badly we did in these Euros, as should;-
1. The uncertainty within the Welsh football at the moment in terms of it's Chief Executive Johnathan Ford being out on gardening leave in March and, more relevantly, the uncertainty regarding the position of manager/head coach. Whatever you think of Rob Page, he only can look at things in the short term until there is clarification as to what he and Ryan Giggs' future is.
2. All four Semi Finalists got to play their three group games at home. Only Sweden and Switzerland had to travel further than Wales did in the group phase - logistically, it was a very hard tournament for Wales, certainly tougher than in 2016.
3. Although one of them occurred when the Danish game was almost over, two harsh sending offs did not help Wales and it cannot be denied that Keiffer Moore's game had to be adjusted to take into account the difference in interpretation between UEFA and EFL officials.
That’s a very long winded way of saying our 4-0 drubbing, maybe wasn’t as bad as first seems.
A debate between you and bitter bollox, always feels like a game of tennis between 2 trainspotters!
I'd say that's a pretty good clarification of what you were trying to say.
Of course TLG knew that, as did most of us on here
Yeah and that's what I said earlier in this thread in a much shorter form during the game yesterday, but the way the conversation developed I decided to put what I said in more detail using some of the points raised by others to try to support my view - you clearly must have read it all to comment like you did.
I believe you are greatly over-analysing the situation. You started by asking if it was time for a bit of a rethink about how our campaign should be judged. Personally, I don't think it'll be viewed any differently by the vast majority of supporters in light of subsequent events because nothing that has happened since has cast a different light on the Welsh team's abilities or efforts.
Wales played four games and, in my opinion, they worked out as follows:
A somewhat fortunate draw against a reasonable Swiss side who ended up going further in the competition that most people they would, although in reality they only beat one side during 90 minutes - Turkey.
A decent performance and a solid victory over a Turkey team who ended up with the worst record in the competition.
A gritty, battling display during a one-goal defeat to a shadow Italian side who dominated the game throughout.
A disappointingly poor performance against a decent Denmark team, during which Wales didn't get the rub of the green but were nevertheless a clear second best after a bright start.
If you disagree with any of that then fair enough, but that's how I saw those games and nothing that has happened since has made me change my mind about the levels of our team's performances or results.
For me, this isn't difficult, although I'm not saying that I'm right.
There's a difference between not having the ability to do the basics and the quality of the opposition. Most footballers at a good level can and should know how to do the basics, irrespective of opposition. Positioning, simple passes, cutting out danger, closing down space etc. That's a given for top end championship, lower end premier League players, surely?
After that comes ability and intelligence, if the opposition have more of that than you, then fair play, what can you do- same in most top level profession's. You can't argue when someone is just much better at something than you or has a greater understanding of what is needed at a specific moment. I don't think that anyone would be critical of the Welsh players for just not being as good as the opposition.
What you can be critical of is basic errors and naivety by players and coaching staff, which Wales were massively guilty of against Denmark. It doesn't matter if Denmark go on to win the competition, the Welsh team couldn't even carry out the basics after 20 minutes. They don't get a free pass later on because Denmark just so happened to better than most of us thought.
Get beaten by better quality, more intelligent players with more ability, fine, no problems. Gift them time, space, disregard the basics then in my opinion that's a poor performance.
Why do you always want England to lose?
Well I've never been called a sheep shagging **** by a Dane for a start...😘
He's a turd.
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