Tough Love? Is it a thing and does it have a place?

[Citizen's Nephew]

I stress this thread is not targeting anyone anywhere. It's something I've been giving a lot of thought to and I've been pretty forthright in my views regarding whether it is a thing and should even be a thing.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts regarding this. Should football be exempt from the workplace rules applied by other employers? Should footballers have more protection than they do now?

I'm rusty on employment law but with recent examples, would a footballer be within their rights to call constructive dismissal at the way they are treated and resign? Thereby having a case against a club?

I realise there are a lot of questions here, but if we want equality, shouldn't it apply to football too?

I'd really appreciate a civil discussion on this and for things not to get personal as I genuinely believe it's an interesting and controversial subject.

[Doucas]

I was fuming at what Morison did to Isaak Davies, did it have an effect? No idea, he was playing well before that Bournemouth game and he played well after.

Watters was set up to fail in the last game, we all know he isn't a target man and more of a poacher, he almost scored 2 goals and he has a very good goal scoring record. If you're a confidence player I imagine they'd be looking at us and thinking there's no way I'd want to join that.

Overall I like Morison and he is doing a good job but I think publicly humiliating players like that was wrong.

[blue matt]

I am of the opinion that the coach will know how far he can push players, the coach might get it wrong at times, but he will learn how to deal with that certain player ( of course players / managers change clubs ) at elite / high performance ( HP ) sports the players should be able to take criticism, I know watching my daughter play netball ( at a elite / HP level ) you can't hide, you have a stinker, everyone knows and you have to deal with it ( but imho thats the game, you know the score and you still enter the level to play )

I know its certainly not the same, but its something I have learnt as a football coach, I know the players I can push and drive them on ( not by humiliating them ) but I certainly can tell them at 1/2 time that wasn't a good as they can play and we know they can play better, this more often than not pushes them on, I also have players who I know if I said the same to they would shut down and hide in the game, now I know that your discussion will be for professional players and not a girls team, but the idea stays the same

[delmbox]

I stress this thread is not targeting anyone anywhere. It's something I've been giving a lot of thought to and I've been pretty forthright in my views regarding whether it is a thing and should even be a thing.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts regarding this. Should football be exempt from the workplace rules applied by other employers? Should footballers have more protection than they do now?

I'm rusty on employment law but with recent examples, would a footballer be within their rights to call constructive dismissal at the way they are treated and resign? Thereby having a case against a club?

I realise there are a lot of questions here, but if we want equality, shouldn't it apply to football too?

I'd really appreciate a civil discussion on this and for things not to get personal as I genuinely believe it's an interesting and controversial subject.

People are different, some will react well to it and some won't. I still think there's a difference between tough love and public humiliation though. One's a form of management and one makes you an arsehole

[xsnaggle]

A footballer being able to take action for constructive dismissal would be fine if there was any simple way for companies (Clubs) to dismiss them in the first place but how often do players sit on their arses doing sfa knowing the clubs can't do anything about it and they can keep bleeding their salaries out of them?
If clubs could refuse to pay players who can't play through their own fault and could give a month's notice to a player who is not doing his job properly it would be a different thing but they can't.

[Rjk]

We don't know what happens behind the scenes, which could change the dynamic massively.

I guess you can get results being an old school drill sergeant, or by being a touchy feely new age life coach style. And you can also get the balance wrong and get bad results.

Jose Mourihno is/has been a top level manager, but wherever he's been he's always seemed to victimise one or more of his players. He has been very successful, but there definitely seems to be a law of diminishing returns with his results.
Someone pointed out before he went to Spurs that with each successive managerial appointment the honeymoon period was getting shorter and the amount of mess he left behind was getting bigger, and I think that holds true to today. At Man U he was clearly hated by the players who even improved under Ole.
There was a tweet that I can't find now showing Mourihno complaining at each of his last 4 jobs that the players were too mentally weak - well either he's monumentally unlucky to keep inheriting teams full of mentally weak players - or he's the problem and not the players.


Likewise if you don't command their respect and are seen as a soft touch, especially as a younger manager, then the results are equally bad.


It is entirely possible that Morison is making some of the same mistakes as Mourihno and others like him, and he'll lose their respect - but they seem pretty united at the moment, and several of the players have said they enjoy playing under him.

There is definitely cause for concern, but there's plenty of time for him to turn it around, and as I said at the start, we don't know how it is away from the cameras, which can change it all completely.

He was full of praise for Bagan in the papers the other day, so it isn't as though it only works one way, and I don't get the impression that he holds a grudge - none of the players that he's criticised have been frozen out of the side, Davies for example is basically first choice alongside Hugill now. Whereas sone of the older players who have so far escaped much direct criticism, like Marlon Pack - have gone from being automatic starters to very much on the fringes.

Some people seem to have made their minds up about him already though, and are taking every little thing to be a massive issue.

[life on mars]

I'm with Blue Matt on a manager knowing his people well enough to apply tough love or motivation ,what you cant install is one rule for one and not another and that becomes a key ingredient of managing as some folk cant take it another can and respond ,in this mix is dedication and loyalty to your craft, sadly this sport over rewards poor behaviour and the contracts are now weighted to the players ,must be a hard job knowing you can be hung at any moment and dismissed by a group of players or player as its so easy to down tools .

[Citizen's Nephew]

Really interesting replies so far and I understand that referencing our own club is going to happen because, after all, things are still fresh but I'd still like to look at football as a whole, as a profession. Are there any employment legals reading this who could answer my questions regarding rights, for example?

I think what's interesting is that Dorcus, Matt, and Delm all reference the term humiliation and all acknowledge it's unacceptable (I'm not trying to put words in anyone's mouth so please forgive me if I've misread). It's interesting getting Matt's views as a youth coach regarding knowing his players and acknowledging that one style doesn't fit all. Delm's reference to public humiliation aligns with my own views.

But what about the pro players? It's their job. They're in their workplace. Why should footballers be expected to take treatment deemed unacceptable in other workplaces?

[Citizen's Nephew]

I was typing my last post before I'd seen a whole load of other replies so apologies for not acknowledging those. I will get around to it I promise.

[The Hooded Claw]

Whilst I believe that different people react better to different styles - and this can be down to personality, experience level and technical ability - I strongly believe that some things should be kept behind closed doors.
Some of what is said at the training ground doesn’t need to come out in a press conference.
Airing your dirty laundry in public does not invite respect, so saying someone isn’t good enough is not on to me, but saying that it wasn’t player x’s day, so you brought on someone better suited to the way you’re playing that day is a much subtler way of putting it.
I hasten to add that I’m happy with our manager and the trajectory he is taking the club, so it’s not a witch-hunt or character assassination.

[Citizen's Nephew]

A footballer being able to take action for constructive dismissal would be fine if there was any simple way for companies (Clubs) to dismiss them in the first place but how often do players sit on their arses doing sfa knowing the clubs can't do anything about it and they can keep bleeding their salaries out of them?
If clubs could refuse to pay players who can't play through their own fault and could give a month's notice to a player who is not doing his job properly it would be a different thing but they can't.

You know, this really does highlight the problems with contract and employment law in football. I hadn't thought of it this way.

The thing is though, I understand the frustration you're communicating because we all know players who have 'played' the system. But don't we know people like that in other jobs too? The part about refusing to pay because of a 'self-inflicted' injury is a difficult one and would be really hard to legislate for. Do you think that a player claiming constructive dismissal because they'd been publicly humiliated and that their performance i.e. their job was adversely affected could result in significant compensation? I know that was a long question!

[blue matt]

But what about the pro players? It's their job. They're in their workplace. Why should footballers be expected to take treatment deemed unacceptable in other workplaces?

I touched on it above, these are professional ( and even if not professional , they might be elite / high performance sports people, these are not doing it for fun, they are doing it to earn a living / achieve / play at the highest level, with that should come a mental toughness to take it on the chin, Ive personally seen it with my daughter and netball a number of times, mental toughness is needed to make it in the elite / high performance sports world, they choose to enter the world, so they must be aware of the pressure

now as ive said before, tough criticism if required imho is fine, if its constant then the coach shouldn't be picking the player at that level ( we have seen it in the past when city players have been bombed out and training with the kids ( thats the end of the road )

[Citizen's Nephew]

We don't know what happens behind the scenes, which could change the dynamic massively.

I guess you can get results being an old school drill sergeant, or by being a touchy feely new age life coach style. And you can also get the balance wrong and get bad results.

Jose Mourihno is/has been a top level manager, but wherever he's been he's always seemed to victimise one or more of his players. He has been very successful, but there definitely seems to be a law of diminishing returns with his results.
Someone pointed out before he went to Spurs that with each successive managerial appointment the honeymoon period was getting shorter and the amount of mess he left behind was getting bigger, and I think that holds true to today. At Man U he was clearly hated by the players who even improved under Ole.
There was a tweet that I can't find now showing Mourihno complaining at each of his last 4 jobs that the players were too mentally weak - well either he's monumentally unlucky to keep inheriting teams full of mentally weak players - or he's the problem and not the players.


Likewise if you don't command their respect and are seen as a soft touch, especially as a younger manager, then the results are equally bad.


It is entirely possible that Morison is making some of the same mistakes as Mourihno and others like him, and he'll lose their respect - but they seem pretty united at the moment, and several of the players have said they enjoy playing under him.

There is definitely cause for concern, but there's plenty of time for him to turn it around, and as I said at the start, we don't know how it is away from the cameras, which can change it all completely.

He was full of praise for Bagan in the papers the other day, so it isn't as though it only works one way, and I don't get the impression that he holds a grudge - none of the players that he's criticised have been frozen out of the side, Davies for example is basically first choice alongside Hugill now. Whereas sone of the older players who have so far escaped much direct criticism, like Marlon Pack - have gone from being automatic starters to very much on the fringes.

Some people seem to have made their minds up about him already though, and are taking every little thing to be a massive issue.

I'm trying so hard not to personalise this debate and you go and mention the M name! Seriously though, I'm thinking in general terms and I like your Mourihno examples. A while back I mentioned in a post (can't remember which) how I thought Warnock was out of order planning a pre-season to the USA because it meant Madine and Tomlin couldn't go for visa issues relating to criminal records. This, to me, was a massive example of freezing two players out of the squad and if it had been me, I'd have made sure that we went somewhere as a whole squad. I felt that was also humiliating for the two players, regardless of what we may think of them.

Would that be constructive dismissal in another environment?

[Citizen's Nephew]

You know, this really does highlight the problems with contract and employment law in football. I hadn't thought of it this way.

The thing is though, I understand the frustration you're communicating because we all know players who have 'played' the system. But don't we know people like that in other jobs too? The part about refusing to pay because of a 'self-inflicted' injury is a difficult one and would be really hard to legislate for. Do you think that a player claiming constructive dismissal because they'd been publicly humiliated and that their performance i.e. their job was adversely affected could result in significant compensation? I know that was a long question!

Sorry, Matt, when you say that's the end of the road, in what sense?

[blue matt]

Sorry, Matt, when you say that's the end of the road, in what sense?

players out of favour / not up to the job of that level, so they are sent to train with the kids, they know it is the end of the line with that club then ( unless a new manager comes in )

[Citizen's Nephew]

I'm with Blue Matt on a manager knowing his people well enough to apply tough love or motivation ,what you cant install is one rule for one and not another and that becomes a key ingredient of managing as some folk cant take it another can and respond ,in this mix is dedication and loyalty to your craft, sadly this sport over rewards poor behaviour and the contracts are now weighted to the players ,must be a hard job knowing you can be hung at any moment and dismissed by a group of players or player as its so easy to down tools .

So this is already highlighting that there are differences in the way contracts and the workplace environment are weighted in football. I'm still intrigued as to why no player has ever cited constructive dismissal at being 'frozen out'. Aren't the awards for constructive dismissal limitless? I'm not sure. If they are, then that's a financial argument and a strong motivation for pleading that case.

[Citizen's Nephew]

players out of favour / not up to the job of that level, so they are sent to train with the kids, they know it is the end of the line with that club then ( unless a new manager comes in )

Ah, thanks, got it. So, I've just posted a question regarding constructive dismissal to LOM. Do you think that it would apply in the scenario you just cited?

[blue matt]

Ah, thanks, got it. So, I've just posted a question regarding constructive dismissal to LOM. Do you think that it would apply in the scenario you just cited?

its a toughie, they are still expected to train ( with the kids ) still playing ( maybe with the reserves ) they are still getting paid what they agreed when signing a contract, so personally no I dont think it should, BUT in todays world, you can certainly see plenty saying " yes as they are being driven out / excluded " and in a traditional workplace it wouldn't be acceptable ( which is the question you raised )

[Rjk]

Ah, thanks, got it. So, I've just posted a question regarding constructive dismissal to LOM. Do you think that it would apply in the scenario you just cited?

It's pretty rare that a player is completely frozen out, or sent to train with the kids. They get paid until the end of their contract anyway, and starting a lawsuit against the club probably wouldn't do them any favours in finding a new club at the end of it, so it probably isn't in their best interest.
The only people who would benefit from it would be the lawyers.

[jon1959]

If there is such a thing as 'tough love' then it has to be both parts.

Being tough as in demanding, setting high standards, pushing, highlighting strengths and weaknesses with no flannel. Showing love as in giving time, care, support and energy to improving someone's performance and well-being. I don't have a problem with any of that.

If it is tough without the love bit, I have a problem. And if the tough is really abuse or bullying, I have a problem.

There is not much point having this discussion on a Cardiff message board without bringing it back to Morison. I am not comfortable with his bluntness and brutality when discussing individual players, but I don't think he is a bully or is doing it all for effect. He also appears to genuinely work with the players after to review their performance and agree ways of improving. If he is going to use that approach he could and should temper his words to the media and fans a bit, and he should also apply that approach to the whole squad (established players as well as ex Academy) and to his own performance.

There is a danger of self confidence coming across as arrogance, and of directness or bluntness appearing as bullying. It is a fine line and he has made a few mistakes on timing and tone, but overall I think he has done pretty well.

[Citizen's Nephew]

Whilst I believe that different people react better to different styles - and this can be down to personality, experience level and technical ability - I strongly believe that some things should be kept behind closed doors.
Some of what is said at the training ground doesn’t need to come out in a press conference.
Airing your dirty laundry in public does not invite respect, so saying someone isn’t good enough is not on to me, but saying that it wasn’t player x’s day, so you brought on someone better suited to the way you’re playing that day is a much subtler way of putting it.
I hasten to add that I’m happy with our manager and the trajectory he is taking the club, so it’s not a witch-hunt or character assassination.

So this would fall under what would be described as an expected level of privacy within the workplace. I'm deliberately trying to frame this as a 'football' issue on not a CCFC issue. I'm not chastising you btw!

If your manager has something personal to say about you, then you'd expect that to be kept private? That's what I would expect and I think most people would expect that.

[Citizen's Nephew]

its a toughie, they are still expected to train ( with the kids ) still playing ( maybe with the reserves ) they are still getting paid what they agreed when signing a contract, so personally no I dont think it should, BUT in todays world, you can certainly see plenty saying " yes as they are being driven out / excluded " and in a traditional workplace it wouldn't be acceptable ( which is the question you raised )

I stress I'm not being confrontational when I ask 'so why is it OK in football?' It's still the workplace.

[Citizen's Nephew]

It's pretty rare that a player is completely frozen out, or sent to train with the kids. They get paid until the end of their contract anyway, and starting a lawsuit against the club probably wouldn't do them any favours in finding a new club at the end of it, so it probably isn't in their best interest.
The only people who would benefit from it would be the lawyers.

But, what if a player is reaching the end of their playing career? It's a financial calculation as to what would be the greater payout if successful. This isn't what's right or wrong from a fan's point of view but what is right or wrong from a legal point of view.

Let me put it another way if you were in that position, would you be looking cold-bloodedly at a lump sum payout?

[jon1959]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/60430838

[North Cardiff Blue]

I stress this thread is not targeting anyone anywhere. It's something I've been giving a lot of thought to and I've been pretty forthright in my views regarding whether it is a thing and should even be a thing.

I'm interested to hear people's thoughts regarding this. Should football be exempt from the workplace rules applied by other employers? Should footballers have more protection than they do now?

I'm rusty on employment law but with recent examples, would a footballer be within their rights to call constructive dismissal at the way they are treated and resign? Thereby having a case against a club?

I realise there are a lot of questions here, but if we want equality, shouldn't it apply to football too?

I'd really appreciate a civil discussion on this and for things not to get personal as I genuinely believe it's an interesting and controversial subject.

I think it is exempt, it's an elite sport and players do earn fortunes and know the game and understand they will be managed in a different way from someone working in a normal occupation.

I feel Morrison definitely did the right thing in taking him off, we could have easily gone in at half time one nil down otherwise, but he does need to have a bit more media training.

He didn't really manage the substitution well he could have had a quick word the Watters or got one of the assistants to talk him through the change out of sight of the cameras. I feel he should also have protected the player in the interviews, just saying it wasn't working and I needed to make changes, not throw the player under the bus.

He was probably feeling slightly defensive and rather than say that it wasn't right, said the player wasn't good enough!

I'm pretty sure he will be learning and reflecting and I would imagine we won't see this happen again, he's very new to management.